When we see a team go missing for large parts of the game there are questions over on field leadership.

When we see it happen 2,3,4 weeks running it is a coaching issue

I haven't said he needs to do the fire and brimstone schtick. But whatever schtick he is using it wasn't working.

When you fail in the first half of a footy match by not turning up and putting in effort you would think that is a huge focus for the next week.

If you repeat the crap performance for a second week you probably get a bit angry as coach and increase the pressure somewhat

If the same thing happens for the third week running, whatever message you are peddling isn't working.

If in the 4th week the same thing happens you don't blame the supporters.

It shouldn't take 4 weeks to sort this out. Effort is non-negotiable. If you don't bring it you don't play. They know who isn't putting in. They have the GPS stats, They watch the game 3 or 4 times. They know who is capable and who isn't.

My premise is pretty simple. If a first year player can bring that effort week in week out why can't the others? And us supporters don't have to stomach the crap that is peddled about it being our fault becasue we are negative, No SHOOOOt Sherlock. We have every right to be,. Somethingaint working and when the highly paid coaching staff don't seem to know how to fix it what does that say???

Glossing over it by saying 'we have improved' is a peanut response.

You don't seem able to get out of this mindset that the coach (or any one person) can snap his fingers and all the problems that have accumulated over the last 6 years will magically fix themselves. While he is at it, Roosy should try pulling lightning out of his arse or turning water into wine. Sure, he is more accountable than most but at the end of the day, he is a cog in a machine.

If we are so reliant on one man to get our players over the line then we are stuffed from minute dot. Improvement has to be organization driven. It comes from the players, coaching staff (not just the senior man) and administration.On that score, no one can debate we have improved over the last 4 years.

Your line from about 'you don't bring it, you don't play' sounds like a former senior coach who was at our club who wielded a big stick and ended up alienating the entire playing group. I just luurved those days back in 2012-13 when there would be 5 changes every week and due to lack of team chemistry, we would proceed to get poleaxed by 80 points. Upon realizing the replacements he had for those 'very naughty boys' he had sent to Casey were often inferior, he would then have to bring them begrudgingly back into the team. Sometimes you need to be realistic and work with the best cattle you have rather than hoping to base selection of teams on getting 'revenge' for perceived non-effort.

The stuff about negativity frankly can never be said at an appropriate time and was an opinion Roosy should have kept in house. However, I do believe that there is a veil of negativity hanging around our supporter base and strangely enough, it's effect isn't most visible when we lose, it's when we win. It seems that we can never accept that when we do win that it's because we were the better team on the day. It's almost like we have fluked or bumbled our way into that position because the opposition was off their game or the team they fielded was below strength. I have seen Melbourne play in two Grand Finals in my lifetime. The talk in the lead up to both of them was about how the boys would 'try their luck and see how they go'. It was never considered for a moment that we got there because we deserved to be there. It was all about how lucky we were and that we were bound to be over matched when the serious stuff started.

Point in case: look at the thread after the Brisbane win. No comments about the four points or that we had surpassed our win total from the year before. Just talk about how it was a terrible match against rubbish opposition.

I now see a bit of that in this thread. I never suggested that we gloss over the fact that we have a long way to go. In fact, some of the back slapping and blue sky posting after wins gets on my nerves a bit. Yet we finish the year off with a win and the usual suspects come out and suggest we focus on the all the negatives and how the strides (as modest as they have been) we have made need to be summarily dismissed in the name of 'accountability'. I have no issue with accountability but the shrill and overblown nature of some of the attacks on one man (a football club has 100+ employees and volunteers within their walls) give me the s***s.

P.S. I would also like to ask you a question jnrmac. Roos has indicated that we are going to be active players in the trade period thus seemingly taking on board the need for players who are able to sustain a four quarter effort. If he does trade a lot of established players will you then give him credit for dropping those who 'aren't trying'?

I expect us to be in the final 8 next season.

I don't think this is too much to ask .

Apart from the Balme years, we have never hung around the middle of the ladder for long in the last 30 years.

We either stink or we don't.

We need to [censored] the Saints,Bombers,Blues,Lions,GC17,Cats(again),Dogs,Pies and win a few against the rest.

Not out of the realms.

You don't seem able to get out of this mindset that the coach (or any one person) can snap his fingers and all the problems that have accumulated over the last 6 years will magically fix themselves. While he is at it, Roosy should try pulling lightning out of his arse or turning water into wine. Sure, he is more accountable than most but at the end of the day, he is a cog in a machine.

If we are so reliant on one man to get our players over the line then we are stuffed from minute dot. Improvement has to be organization driven. It comes from the players, coaching staff (not just the senior man) and administration.On that score, no one can debate we have improved over the last 4 years.

Your line from about 'you don't bring it, you don't play' sounds like a former senior coach who was at our club who wielded a big stick and ended up alienating the entire playing group. I just luurved those days back in 2012-13 when there would be 5 changes every week and due to lack of team chemistry, we would proceed to get poleaxed by 80 points. Upon realizing the replacements he had for those 'very naughty boys' he had sent to Casey were often inferior, he would then have to bring them begrudgingly back into the team. Sometimes you need to be realistic and work with the best cattle you have rather than hoping to base selection of teams on getting 'revenge' for perceived non-effort.

The stuff about negativity frankly can never be said at an appropriate time and was an opinion Roosy should have kept in house. However, I do believe that there is a veil of negativity hanging around our supporter base and strangely enough, it's effect isn't most visible when we lose, it's when we win. It seems that we can never accept that when we do win that it's because we were the better team on the day. It's almost like we have fluked or bumbled our way into that position because the opposition was off their game or the team they fielded was below strength. I have seen Melbourne play in two Grand Finals in my lifetime. The talk in the lead up to both of them was about how the boys would 'try their luck and see how they go'. It was never considered for a moment that we got there because we deserved to be there. It was all about how lucky we were and that we were bound to be over matched when the serious stuff started.

Point in case: look at the thread after the Brisbane win. No comments about the four points or that we had surpassed our win total from the year before. Just talk about how it was a terrible match against rubbish opposition.

I now see a bit of that in this thread. I never suggested that we gloss over the fact that we have a long way to go. In fact, some of the back slapping and blue sky posting after wins gets on my nerves a bit. Yet we finish the year off with a win and the usual suspects come out and suggest we focus on the all the negatives and how the strides (as modest as they have been) we have made need to be summarily dismissed in the name of 'accountability'. I have no issue with accountability but the shrill and overblown nature of some of the attacks on one man (a football club has 100+ employees and volunteers within their walls) give me the s***s.

P.S. I would also like to ask you a question jnrmac. Roos has indicated that we are going to be active players in the trade period thus seemingly taking on board the need for players who are able to sustain a four quarter effort. If he does trade a lot of established players will you then give him credit for dropping those who 'aren't trying'?

We have an issue though, one we don't seem to be able to fix in 2 seconds, lets throw every thing good out and start again!

I expect us to be in the final 8 next season.

I don't think this is too much to ask .

Apart from the Balme years, we have never hung around the middle of the ladder for long in the last 30 years.

We either stink or we don't.

We need to [censored] the Saints,Bombers,Blues,Lions,GC17,Cats(again),Dogs,Pies and win a few against the rest.

Not out of the realms.

My par for next year will be 10 wins. hopefully more and in the 8 but I won't be calling for the club to be burnt to the ground if we don't.

I think we will have some good wins that we don't expect and some bad losses, much like this year, if the ratio of one to the other doesn't change then I think we have problems.

I expect us to be in the final 8 next season.

I don't think this is too much to ask .

Apart from the Balme years, we have never hung around the middle of the ladder for long in the last 30 years.

We either stink or we don't.

We need to [censored] the Saints,Bombers,Blues,Lions,GC17,Cats(again),Dogs,Pies and win a few against the rest.

Not out of the realms.

Agree, we should rise quickly next year for the following reasons...

1. We have at least three to five "top 22 players" to return from injury next year - Petracca, Kent, Frost, Trenners, Vanders...
2. We seem to have finally got our development right with plenty of upside in our young guns - Brayshaw, Viney, Stretch, Hogan, Harmes, OMac, etc...
3. We seem to be nailing three to five new recruits or trades each year - (this year Garlett, Vandenburg, Brayshaw, etc...)

So we're looking at improving by 6 to 10 quality players in 2016 plus the natural maturing of the young talent on the list.

Plus it will be Roos last year!

It will be a cracker! Seriously.

One thing that seemed not to have received much comment is that bar our win over lions (which we won by 15?) our wins have all been pretty comfortable. Which given we beat some OK teams must be a positive

So every loss had a performance that was completely unacceptable, it must be almost all of them as we won nearly a third of our games.

Happy for losing to be unacceptable, but surely we had more than a couple of losses where our performance was actually OK?

I did say in another post that we had a couple of 'good' losses.. but not all of wins were 'good'

Round 1 Suns MCG Win 115-89 26

Round 2 Giants StarTrack Oval Loss 56-101 45

Round 3 Crows Adelaide Oval Loss 55-80 25

Round 4 Tigers MCG Win 83-51 32

Round 5 Dockers MCG Loss 50-118 68

Round 6 Swans MCG Loss 50-88 38

Round 7 Hawks MCG Loss 50-155 105

Round 8 Bulldogs MCG Win 103-64 39

Round 9 Power TIO Traegar Park Loss 54-115 61

Round 10 Magpies MCG Loss 85-110 25

Round 11 Saints Etihad Stadium Loss 83-85 2

Round 12 Cats Simonds Stadium Win 113-89 24

Round 14 Eagles TIO Stadium Loss 60-114 54

Round 15 Bombers MCG Loss 60-69 9

Round 16 Lions MCG Win 60-36 24

Round 17 Saints MCG Loss 46-83 37

Round 18 Magpies MCG Win 91-54 37

Round 19 Kangaroos MCG Loss 92-127 35

Round 20 Bulldogs Etihad Stadium Loss 55-153 98

Round 21 Blues MCG Loss 55-78 23

Round 22 Dockers Domain Stadium Loss 54-108 54

Round 23 Giants Etihad Stadium Win 103-77 26

That's 8 good 14 bad and I reckon I'm being generous

You simply cannot have the ridiculous 1st quarter efforts that we have had and not sheet that blame home to the coach.

Yes you can - as will be reflected in the upcoming trade period.

I did say in another post that we had a couple of 'good' losses.. but not all of wins were 'good'

No, but a few were great...

Good against the Crows two years running.

Great wins against Ablett, Tigers, Dogs, and Pies.

Excellent win against Geelong in Mordor.

Nearly stole a game against the best-up-and-coming-young-team-uber-awesome Saints at Etihad.

Played some strong football after quarter time in losses to Pies and Roos.

Played a good half and held on for an ugly win against the Lions.

That better?

No, but a few were great...

Good against the Crows two years running.

Great wins against Ablett, Tigers, Dogs, and Pies.

Excellent win against Geelong in Mordor.

Nearly stole a game against the best-up-and-coming-young-team-uber-awesome Saints at Etihad.

Played some strong football after quarter time in losses to Pies and Roos.

Played a good half and held on for an ugly win against the Lions.

That better?

Geez talk about positive Pete!

We stopped going backwards and some spots of recovery forward and back are good.

We havent gone forward enough to register this year as progress IMO. Others have had worse years.

I would be happy to not win more games than 10 for a couple of years if we could watch fast running positive play.

The worst thing for me about our team is watching the scragging style we have to play to eek out a contest.

I did say in another post that we had a couple of 'good' losses.. but not all of wins were 'good'

Round 1 Suns MCG Win 115-89 26

Round 2 Giants StarTrack Oval Loss 56-101 45

Round 3 Crows Adelaide Oval Loss 55-80 25

Round 4 Tigers MCG Win 83-51 32

Round 5 Dockers MCG Loss 50-118 68

Round 6 Swans MCG Loss 50-88 38

Round 7 Hawks MCG Loss 50-155 105

Round 8 Bulldogs MCG Win 103-64 39

Round 9 Power TIO Traegar Park Loss 54-115 61

Round 10 Magpies MCG Loss 85-110 25

Round 11 Saints Etihad Stadium Loss 83-85 2

Round 12 Cats Simonds Stadium Win 113-89 24

Round 14 Eagles TIO Stadium Loss 60-114 54

Round 15 Bombers MCG Loss 60-69 9

Round 16 Lions MCG Win 60-36 24

Round 17 Saints MCG Loss 46-83 37

Round 18 Magpies MCG Win 91-54 37

Round 19 Kangaroos MCG Loss 92-127 35

Round 20 Bulldogs Etihad Stadium Loss 55-153 98

Round 21 Blues MCG Loss 55-78 23

Round 22 Dockers Domain Stadium Loss 54-108 54

Round 23 Giants Etihad Stadium Win 103-77 26

That's 8 good 14 bad and I reckon I'm being generous

A win is a win is a win... It's ridiculous to include the Brisbane game in a case against Roos.

Geez talk about positive Pete!

Well, this is where we blow smoke up each other's rear ends isn't it?

We pushed our best up a notch and also left our worst down around our ankles. We didn't show up for games that were winnable and made good teams look 'insipid' didn't we Dimma?

It doesn't really matter anymore - but I am optimistic for next year and that's all this is - an attempt to gauge how we will do next year.

Don't know - depends how we go in trade week and how Petracca comes on amongst other things.

A win is a win is a win... It's ridiculous to include the Brisbane game in a case against Roos.

you obviously didn't see the game

anyone who reckons they are happy going forward with the standard of footy we dished up that day is kidding themselves

all it was was a terrible indictment on Brisbane

I've also 'paid' two losses you will notice, and a win in R1 over a team that finished 16th

not exactly marking hard I wouldve thought

I expect us to be in the final 8 next season.

I don't think this is too much to ask .

Apart from the Balme years, we have never hung around the middle of the ladder for long in the last 30 years.

We either stink or we don't.

We need to [censored] the Saints,Bombers,Blues,Lions,GC17,Cats(again),Dogs,Pies and win a few against the rest.

Not out of the realms.

2x wins against the Saints, Queen's Birthday, Carlton, Essendon...all games we *should* have won. That would have put us at 12 wins.

I predict 10 wins for next year, but 12-15 wins is a possibility if this team can play consistent football. We are miles ahead of Carlton, Essendon, Collingwood, Brisbane, GC, St Kilda, Cats as far as recruiting, drafting and young talent goes. IMO anyway.

You don't seem able to get out of this mindset that the coach (or any one person) can snap his fingers and all the problems that have accumulated over the last 6 years will magically fix themselves. While he is at it, Roosy should try pulling lightning out of his arse or turning water into wine. Sure, he is more accountable than most but at the end of the day, he is a cog in a machine.

Now you are having a lend. You frankly do yourself and your argument a disservice suggesting the things above.

A legendary coach that has been there 2 years can't get the players to bring effort 4 weeks running. That is a problem.

Explain to me why Brayshaw can do it week in week out? And if he can do it why can't others.

When harmes comes in and plays like his life depends on it what does that tell you? You clearly didn't see the 4 games where we didn't show until half time. And if you did and still think the coach is not responsible for that then I can't argue it any more with you.

Effort is non-negotiable.

Now you are having a lend. You frankly do yourself and your argument a disservice suggesting the things above.

A legendary coach that has been there 2 years can't get the players to bring effort 4 weeks running. That is a problem.

Explain to me why Brayshaw can do it week in week out? And if he can do it why can't others.

When harmes comes in and plays like his life depends on it what does that tell you? You clearly didn't see the 4 games where we didn't show until half time. And if you did and still think the coach is not responsible for that then I can't argue it any more with you.

Effort is non-negotiable.

I'll ask you a counter question:

Harmes and Brayshaw, according to you, come in every week and give 100%. What if that was because of PR's influence? Interestingly enough, you didn't answer my last question.

You seem very willing to sheet all the negatives that your perceive down to Roos and any of the positives that have occurred have happened because the players made it happen.

I would suggest that speaking in old school, simplistic and beer battered football cliches about 'bringing it' does your argument no good. No one would deny that effort is a pre-requisite for any football club but to assume all of the habits, behaviors and performance of a group of 44 men, and in many cases man/children, can and should be micromanaged/dictated by one man (no matter how qualified or well paid) is unrealistic and is the same trap we have fallen into for the last 20 odd years. It's almost pathetic to see us fawn over our savior when he arrives and then turn on him as soon as things look remotely sour.

Agree, we should rise quickly next year for the following reasons...

1. We have at least three to five "top 22 players" to return from injury next year - Petracca, Kent, Frost, Trenners, Vanders...
2. We seem to have finally got our development right with plenty of upside in our young guns - Brayshaw, Viney, Stretch, Hogan, Harmes, OMac, etc...
3. We seem to be nailing three to five new recruits or trades each year - (this year Garlett, Vandenburg, Brayshaw, etc...)

So we're looking at improving by 6 to 10 quality players in 2016 plus the natural maturing of the young talent on the list.

Plus it will be Roos last year!

It will be a cracker! Seriously.

I'll agree with you on points 2 and 3, but realistically, we should assume that at some stage next year we'll again lose three to five "top 22 players" to injury for a significant period of time. Teams that succeed on field generally have either greater depth to cover these injuries or extreme luck with injuries in that particular year. If we're relying on luck, that's probably not a sound strategy.

Now you are having a lend. You frankly do yourself and your argument a disservice suggesting the things above.

A legendary coach that has been there 2 years can't get the players to bring effort 4 weeks running. That is a problem.

Explain to me why Brayshaw can do it week in week out? And if he can do it why can't others.

When harmes comes in and plays like his life depends on it what does that tell you? You clearly didn't see the 4 games where we didn't show until half time. And if you did and still think the coach is not responsible for that then I can't argue it any more with you.

Effort is non-negotiable.

His life depends on it...

Nahh... Thank christ we have him or we'd be in Tassie by now!

Now you are having a lend. You frankly do yourself and your argument a disservice suggesting the things above.

A legendary coach that has been there 2 years can't get the players to bring effort 4 weeks running. That is a problem.

Explain to me why Brayshaw can do it week in week out? And if he can do it why can't others.

When harmes comes in and plays like his life depends on it what does that tell you? You clearly didn't see the 4 games where we didn't show until half time. And if you did and still think the coach is not responsible for that then I can't argue it any more with you.

Effort is non-negotiable.

You seem to have missed the point completely. CBF didn't say it wasn't a problem, actually they said there were problems. What the rightly questioned was your view that there should be no problems after 2 years at the top.

Well, this is where we blow smoke up each other's rear ends isn't it?

We pushed our best up a notch and also left our worst down around our ankles. We didn't show up for games that were winnable and made good teams look 'insipid' didn't we Dimma?

It doesn't really matter anymore - but I am optimistic for next year and that's all this is - an attempt to gauge how we will do next year.

Don't know - depends how we go in trade week and how Petracca comes on amongst other things.

I think the last line says it all rpfc.

You seem to have missed the point completely. CBF didn't say it wasn't a problem, actually they said there were problems. What the rightly questioned was your view that there should be no problems after 2 years at the top.

Can you point out where I said there should no problems after 2 years? Or did you just make that up?

When we see a team go missing for large parts of the game there are questions over on field leadership.

When we see it happen 2,3,4 weeks running it is a coaching issue

...

I disagree with this.

When we see our happen once we question on field leadership, but the 2, 3, 4 etc to me is clearly playing group effort.

Roos job is to get the team up, but that doesn't mean he has to get these guys up. If he addresses the issues off field by trading out players and bringing new leaders in then he is doing his job.

So it's up to him to fix this over summer.

We have a [censored] last with no leadership. You can't change that in a week.

He will have done a fair job in 3 years and by year 4 it will be Goodwins job to get us to perform on field.

Can you point out where I said there should no problems after 2 years? Or did you just make that up?

You talk about how a legendary coach can't get the players playing for four weeks. This is a problem, agreed, but you seem to think it shouldn't exist, then you name all the young players who can do it but seem to ignore that that may be due to Roos, not despite him. It also points that this particular issue may be due to past expectations and issues with past cultures the older players have come through. This may take time to solve but you expect that you magical coach can solve this and should have.

In other posts you do seem to think that all problems should not exist and it is Roos' fault that they do, you expect too much too fast.