I reckon Miller could have offered something on field. I agree with the rest other than the depiction of Bruce. He was treated terribly by the list management administration at the time. I was no great fan but he was a talented footballer who would have stayed in better circumstances.

I am sure that Bruce and the admin at the time did not handle the situation well but the fact remains he was offered a 1yr contract with a games clause that would have given him 2 yrs. He chose to leave and accept a 1 yr deal on lesser money. No doubt he saw what had happened to Junior and said to himself 'old players are being turfed so my chances of getting a 2nd year are slim' or some such.

History will show that the club was right because Bruce was unable to complete a 2nd year in any case due to injury.

Bruce was a great servant of the club but IMO had zero leadership skills in a time where we were sadly lacking them. He, Robbo, Yze and White threw the towel in regularly towards the last part of their careers in games where we were getting flogged and they were gifted games in the end they should not have got. All in all it was an appalling time at the club.

Besides poor picks we didn't turn enough players over.

As you know I wanted to turn the list over at the time.

Not all supporters agreed and still don't, as they seem to become attached to a player for the simple act of wearing red and blue.

I love Paul Roos, and will hate it when he goes in 1 year.

But, he did overestimate our capacity to rebound from ground zero ("I am not afraid of coaching this team (or words to that effect).....mid 2013 OTC).

He did overestimate the impact of defence in ultra modern football.

He did underestimate the impact of offence in ultra modern football.

Do the sums. Mick Malthouse went from the most sought-after coach in 2011/12 to yesterday's news in 3 years. The ultra-defensive mantra worked for him from 1984 to 2012.

The game has changed.

To Roos's defence he was left with a very average list; which many debate here. What is beyond debate, like climate change, is that he was left with a bunch of introverts that did not have pace and could not break lines. Lumumba and Garlett were needed squared. Kent, Petracca and Frost have been missed squared. In this circumstance, it is very hard for us to offend with speed, and defend against speed.

Chill out. Finals 2018, and we will win one or two.

Problem is that the game might change again due to Fitzpatrick and White-teeth McLaughlin changing rules for aesthetic reasons. Rotations to 60 will change the game again and stamina might be more important than speed.

The game is actually pretty cyclical. The great teams bounce between being ultra defensive or ultra attacking. The best coaches are the ones that constantly updating and tweaking things. This is where progress comes from. Malthouse went about ridding the Carlton list of the trouble makers, but these blokes also happened to be some of their better players (Betts, Garlett and even Waite). At the end of the day, he and the board overestimated the quality of the list.

Roos has brought a hard edged defensive brand to Melbourne, qualities that will alwats be in vogue and if tweaked to incorporate attacking flair, it is a style that can beat 14 of the 18 teams in this competition. That's just the game style. You then have to account for natural improvement and development. The best coaches should be able to 'teach' and then hone their game plan and style.

The game is actually pretty cyclical. The great teams bounce between being ultra defensive or ultra attacking. The best coaches are the ones that constantly updating and tweaking things. This is where progress comes from. Malthouse went about ridding the Carlton list of the trouble makers, but these blokes also happened to be some of their better players (Betts, Garlett and even Waite). At the end of the day, he and the board overestimated the quality of the list.

Roos has brought a hard edged defensive brand to Melbourne, qualities that will alwats be in vogue and if tweaked to incorporate attacking flair, it is a style that can beat 14 of the 18 teams in this competition. That's just the game style. You then have to account for natural improvement and development. The best coaches should be able to 'teach' and then hone their game plan and style.

A hard edge? These blokes are as soft and weak and poor defensively as they were when Roos arrived. Yes he got them running back to help more than they did before (which was pretty much never) but their willingness to compete and beat their opponents (which always start with the ability to defend) is nothing short of deplorable. Every team in the AFL knows that if their players turn up willing to compete physically they will beat Melbourne. It is completely beyond a joke how insipid our blokes are. Our tackling numbers prove just how uncompetitive and defensively inept we are.

A hard edge? These blokes are as soft and weak and poor defensively as they were when Roos arrived. Yes he got them running back to help more than they did before (which was pretty much never) but their willingness to compete and beat their opponents (which always start with the ability to defend) is nothing short of deplorable. Every team in the AFL knows that if their players turn up willing to compete physically they will beat Melbourne. It is completel beyond a joke how insipid our blokes are. Our tackling numbers prove just how uncompetitive and defensively inept we are.

Soft as butter I think is the term often used to describe a completely inept amd insipid outfit. "Bruise free footy" in latter years courtesy of some ex Blues players. That's a scary thought given we play them for the only time this year on Sunday. I have no confidence at all that we can beat anyone at this point. That would include the top 2 or 3 at VFL level also. No backbone whatsoever. I'm afraid to say Old Dee was correct when he said 6 months or so ago that we have probably gotten so low there is no coming back.

I'm sitting in the Barkers Cafe at the Whitten odly enough on a work assignment watching how vibrant and "together" this place feels ... our old boy Lukey Beveridge standing around happily chatting to some eager patrons/supporters hanging off his every word. I often wondered why we never had a place for our supporters to truly hang out together with clubmen and players just floating around. I guess thats because we've never been a truly "local" club that ppl can associate with and just "hang out" together with officials and players alike...as one. Im not saying by any means this is the answer to all our woes either. And the Doggies hardly have a proud record to bark about. But gee I'd kill for a place like this that actually feels like a real footy club. A place where ppl can come and "belong" and feel a part of.

Oh well. Maybe in my next lifetime eh

A hard edge? These blokes are as soft and weak and poor defensively as they were when Roos arrived. Yes he got them running back to help more than they did before (which was pretty much never) but their willingness to compete and beat their opponents (which always start with the ability to defend) is nothing short of deplorable. Every team in the AFL knows that if their players turn up willing to compete physically they will beat Melbourne. It is completely beyond a joke how insipid our blokes are. Our tackling numbers prove just how uncompetitive and defensively inept we are.

I am not one of the many around panicking and questioning Roos/our general direction BUT I have to concede you have a strong point here. That was the main thing I took away from the debacle on Sunday: we were getting done, and done heavily, mostly because every time there was a contest to be won, we lost it - some of the time it was a failure of skill but mostly it was a failure of physicality and guts. Sure, there were plenty of other reasons why we lost by 98 pts, but to me this was the most important: when there's a hard ball that requires a special effort, too often we let the opposition have it. Now, to me this strikes right at the heart of the 'culture' of this club, the very thing Roos is here to eradicate. We don't go as hard as they do and it needs to be fixed desperately.

Takes guts to gut run too.
We failed miserably at that on the weekend.

A hard edge? These blokes are as soft and weak and poor defensively as they were when Roos arrived. Yes he got them running back to help more than they did before (which was pretty much never) but their willingness to compete and beat their opponents (which always start with the ability to defend) is nothing short of deplorable. Every team in the AFL knows that if their players turn up willing to compete physically they will beat Melbourne. It is completely beyond a joke how insipid our blokes are. Our tackling numbers prove just how uncompetitive and defensively inept we are.

Yet look at how we played in the Richmond, Bulldogs and Geelong wins, and you'll see the opposite of what you're saying here.

The issue isn't whether the players are capable of playing tough, contested, physical football. They've shown they are. They problem is consistency. Whether that's between the ears or a physical thing, who knows, but we don't have the right on-field attitude weekly, which is a problem Roos needs to address.

I am sure that Bruce and the admin at the time did not handle the situation well but the fact remains he was offered a 1yr contract with a games clause that would have given him 2 yrs. He chose to leave and accept a 1 yr deal on lesser money. No doubt he saw what had happened to Junior and said to himself 'old players are being turfed so my chances of getting a 2nd year are slim' or some such.

History will show that the club was right because Bruce was unable to complete a 2nd year in any case due to injury.

Bruce was a great servant of the club but IMO had zero leadership skills in a time where we were sadly lacking them. He, Robbo, Yze and White threw the towel in regularly towards the last part of their careers in games where we were getting flogged and they were gifted games in the end they should not have got. All in all it was an appalling time at the club.

I agree with you on this. Even McDonald was probably pushed on the back of his calf injury.

The origin of our current woes harks back further than just Neeld or Bailey. It is the lack of onfield leadership development to replace these guys, which goes back to the Daniher era.

We will look back at the Roos era and say what....???

Balme- some success, played finals

Daniher- up and down, but ok, played finals

Bailey- Patches of good, but generally bad

Neeld-The worst in our history with a horrible list

Roos-substantially improved list but still no success

We haven't turned the corner yet...and the style of football we are playing is a long way off.

Let's be honest, his game plan is rubbish..defensive and slow.

This is not soccer where they try to score a goal once or twice in 90 minutes. Go direct Roosy .

We will look back at the Roos era and say what....???

Balme- some success, played finals

Daniher- up and down, but ok, played finals

Bailey- Patches of good, but generally bad

Neeld-The worst in our history with a horrible list

Roos-substantially improved list but still no success

We haven't turned the corner yet...and the style of football we are playing is a long way off.

Let's be honest, his game plan is rubbish..defensive and slow.

This is not soccer where they try to score a goal once or twice in 90 minutes. Go direct Roosy .

Pretty sure we looked back in 1986 at the Barrassi era as a fail

Things change very quickly in footy

Pretty sure we looked back in 1986 at the Barrassi era as a fail

Things change very quickly in footy

Look at our list of players...Roos is not getting the most out of them. Fail.

We will look back at the Roos era and say what....???

Balme- some success, played finals

Daniher- up and down, but ok, played finals

Bailey- Patches of good, but generally bad

Neeld-The worst in our history with a horrible list

Roos-substantially improved list but still no success

We haven't turned the corner yet...and the style of football we are playing is a long way off.

Let's be honest, his game plan is rubbish..defensive and slow.

This is not soccer where they try to score a goal once or twice in 90 minutes. Go direct Roosy .

The game plan did not look rubbish, defensive or slow when we beat Geelong, Collingwood or the bullies (the first time we played them). Or the toigs.

When we rid ourselves of more of the nqr's we will be able to be more attacking without yhe constant turnovers that make the game plan look bad.

The game plan did not look rubbish, defensive or slow when we beat Geelong, Collingwood or the bullies (the first time we played them). Or the toigs.

When we rid ourselves of more of the nqr's we will be able to be more attacking without yhe constant turnovers that make the game plan look bad.

True, but we still play indirect football, lack confidence and we have been thumped by the best teams, hawks by 100+ and the Dogs about 100... Roos has always said we can judge how we are going by our performances against the best teams.

Just look at the WB or STK game plans against us, attacking direct football, with worst lists than ours.

True, but we still play indirect football, lack confidence and we have been thumped by the best teams, hawks by 100+ and the Dogs about 100... Roos has always said we can judge how we are going by our performances against the best teams.

Just look at the WB or STK game plans against us, attacking direct football, with worst lists than ours.

Bulldogs worse list then ours hahaha

Oh dear

Roos greatest assets will come to light in his last year. I honestly believe we are right in the mix for some great footballers who are being hypnotised by PR in these last weeks of the season. I agree he seemingly has a blase match day look and Ive nearly given up the ghost but I think there will be great signings at the end of the year.

Ive never made claims before.

Bulldogs worse list then ours hahaha

Oh dear

Lin Jong for example .come on..have a look at it...we have a better list.

Lin Jong for example .come on..have a look at it...we have a better list.

You're kidding right?

How nany of our players would get a game with them? How many of their players would get a game with us?

Lin Jong for example .come on..have a look at it...we have a better list.

Your off your head mate.

Lin Jong for example .come on..have a look at it...we have a better list.

They've probably got the most promising midfield in the competition. I'm really not sure which game you've been watching the last 12 months.

Lin Jong for example .come on..have a look at it...we have a better list.

Drugs are bad, mmmkay

True, but we still play indirect football, lack confidence and we have been thumped by the best teams, hawks by 100+ and the Dogs about 100... Roos has always said we can judge how we are going by our performances against the best teams.

Just look at the WB or STK game plans against us, attacking direct football, with worst lists than ours.

Our player culture gives us no hope of knowing how much better the WB and STK lists might be than ours. Those two teams tend to go at 100% intensity most of the time, and our players don't. We have made and allowed excuses for these blokes forever and it has now become so acceptable that the media don't even bother pointing out the insipid individual efforts by Melbourne players anymore.

Even if the WB are more talented, they aren't so much more talented that they would [censored] a competing side by 98 points. MFC players lack pride in the club (always have) and don't even appear to show pride in their own individual performance most of the time. Easily pushed aside.

And yeah the intensity was great the days when we beat Rich, Geel, WB, Coll. I wonder if that told the players anything?? Gee when we compete as hard or harder than our opponents we win football matches. The thing about professional sport is, there's a fair chance your opponent might be very hungry to win when they play you. So, they might just lift their own intensity when it looks like you might be challenging them. They might not be prepared to simply roll over. Never does the MFC stand up when this happens.

The Bulldogs tackled manically on the weekend. They were obviously annoyed that they lost to us earlier in the year and wanted to prove a point. What would be nice, just once in an MFC supporters lifetime, would be to see our players lift their own intensity to match when that happens, because they don't want to be embarrassed by the fact that they can lose a game simply because their opponents are tougher and hungrier than them.

The WB looked streets ahead of us on the weekend because they wanted to compete more than we did. That's it in a nutshell. I would consider that disappointing if it was an occasional thing, but I actually think it's contemptuous that it happens regularly. I thought that being individually competitive would have been the one non-negotiable message that Roos, through his high standing in the AFL, would have been able to get across to this group. Not even he seems to have been able to change these guys (maybe they sense he hasn't bought in so they aren't listening, and hey we've allowed all the other excises over the years so why not allow them that one too).

Look at our list of players...Roos is not getting the most out of them. Fail.

I'm guessing by your comments with regard to this thread especially with regard to the Doggies combined with your favourite players you weren't around in the 80's (or old enough) to see how bad we really were for a while and in 86 & for the first half of 87 we were treading water.

Then bingo

Our player culture gives us no hope of knowing how much better the WB and STK lists might be than ours. Those two teams tend to go at 100% intensity most of the time, and our players don't. We have made and allowed excuses for these blokes forever and it has now become so acceptable that the media don't even bother pointing out the insipid individual efforts by Melbourne players anymore.

Even if the WB are more talented, they aren't so much more talented that they would [censored] a competing side by 98 points. MFC players lack pride in the club (always have) and don't even appear to show pride in their own individual performance most of the time. Easily pushed aside.

And yeah the intensity was great the days when we beat Rich, Geel, WB, Coll. I wonder if that told the players anything?? Gee when we compete as hard or harder than our opponents we win football matches. The thing about professional sport is, there's a fair chance your opponent might be very hungry to win when they play you. So, they might just lift their own intensity when it looks like you might be challenging them. They might not be prepared to simply roll over. Never does the MFC stand up when this happens.

The Bulldogs tackled manically on the weekend. They were obviously annoyed that they lost to us earlier in the year and wanted to prove a point. What would be nice, just once in an MFC supporters lifetime, would be to see our players lift their own intensity to match when that happens, because they don't want to be embarrassed by the fact that they can lose a game simply because their opponents are tougher and hungrier than them.

The WB looked streets ahead of us on the weekend because they wanted to compete more than we did. That's it in a nutshell. I would consider that disappointing if it was an occasional thing, but I actually think it's contemptuous that it happens regularly. I thought that being individually competitive would have been the one non-negotiable message that Roos, through his high standing in the AFL, would have been able to get across to this group. Not even he seems to have been able to change these guys (maybe they sense he hasn't bought in so they aren't listening, and hey we've allowed all the other excises over the years so why not allow them that one too).

agree 100%

Our player culture gives us no hope of knowing how much better the WB and STK lists might be than ours. Those two teams tend to go at 100% intensity most of the time, and our players don't. We have made and allowed excuses for these blokes forever and it has now become so acceptable that the media don't even bother pointing out the insipid individual efforts by Melbourne players anymore.

Even if the WB are more talented, they aren't so much more talented that they would [censored] a competing side by 98 points. MFC players lack pride in the club (always have) and don't even appear to show pride in their own individual performance most of the time. Easily pushed aside.

And yeah the intensity was great the days when we beat Rich, Geel, WB, Coll. I wonder if that told the players anything?? Gee when we compete as hard or harder than our opponents we win football matches. The thing about professional sport is, there's a fair chance your opponent might be very hungry to win when they play you. So, they might just lift their own intensity when it looks like you might be challenging them. They might not be prepared to simply roll over. Never does the MFC stand up when this happens.

The Bulldogs tackled manically on the weekend. They were obviously annoyed that they lost to us earlier in the year and wanted to prove a point. What would be nice, just once in an MFC supporters lifetime, would be to see our players lift their own intensity to match when that happens, because they don't want to be embarrassed by the fact that they can lose a game simply because their opponents are tougher and hungrier than them.

The WB looked streets ahead of us on the weekend because they wanted to compete more than we did. That's it in a nutshell. I would consider that disappointing if it was an occasional thing, but I actually think it's contemptuous that it happens regularly. I thought that being individually competitive would have been the one non-negotiable message that Roos, through his high standing in the AFL, would have been able to get across to this group. Not even he seems to have been able to change these guys (maybe they sense he hasn't bought in so they aren't listening, and hey we've allowed all the other excises over the years so why not allow them that one too).

Pretty much somes things up about our "losing" attitude/culture.

It's also very difficult for a coach to cover players who just arent able to cut it at AFL level either from an intensity or skills/talent viewpoint.

The MFC has been littered with the scraps, flotsam, getsam, also-ran and "past it" players that have managed to fall into the club not so much because they were stand out talents but mostly because we've just had to recruit them to get the numbers together to make up a list. Pretty much why we've never produced a premiership or any club champions (other than Flower) since 64.

We have become the rubbish dump of the AFL and are now totally irrelevant. We do have a few solid players in the mix at the moment but unfortunately a few does not make 30 or so needed to compete at AFL level.

Good luck to anyone who takes charge of this club from here including Goodwin, who ever follows after him, and the next, and the next. I dont envy any of them but wish them all the best in their careers and hope the black hole of horror that is the MFC finally turns into a bright star at some point somewhere in time.