On 1/8/2016 at 11:44 AM, sue said:

That depends entirely on what was agreed between the AFL and the MFC when we selected Melksham (which we don't know).  If it was agreed  we'd be compensated in some way by the AFL if we took him, then we'd rightly expect that compensation if required.  Just a part of the 'calculated gamble'.  Maybe we wouldn't have taken him without that assurance.

He could also be one of the players who actually refused to take part in the program, when asked he plays a straight bat, which he has to to protect the identity of the 34, he wasn't getting games when Hird was in charge, could be one of the reasons why, and he/we won't be impacted by the decision at all

On 7 January 2016 at 8:25 PM, Deecisive said:

So it looks like essendon is allowed to use top up players, can we then do likewise should melksham have to sit out part of the season?

 

On 7 January 2016 at 7:20 AM, Good Times Grimes said:

We're allowed one upgrade prior to round one anyway, so if the AFL were to allow us a bonus upgrade then two of White/Wagner/Michie/King would be on the senior list.

I'd still like a top up player to substitute for Melksham should he be suspended. It wouldn't be fair for the Bombers to be allowed to add players to complete their list while we are a man short (even with the rookie upgrade). All hypotheticals at this stage.

GTG - are you naive enough to think that the AFL will / would consider equity in this )or any other matter).   Clearly the Bombers need their support, and stuff the rest of us (in their dimwitted view).

6 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

I am tipping the entire 2016 season for all 34 players

Not sure what management should get. 

Doc Reid should be struck off i know that!!

 

Management, board and senior coach should get life bans from all sports (or at least a decade minimum).

Yes - Reid has escaped AHPRA's scrutiny for far too long.   He will probably be ready to retire if and when they get off their asses.

Can't wait til Tuesday....

We know who the 34 are and Melksham is one of them ... we could assume that those who refused to take part in the injection of the "possible" PED's aren't part of the 34.

Including rookies, Essendon had a total of 46 players on their list going into the 2012 season. So 12 players weren't charged ... (including Zaharakis and Hal Hunter*)

Here is their 2012 list and here are the 34 who were charged

 

*Although not charged, Hunter is still pursuing the EFC (and the AFL) through the courts.

Edited January 9, 20169 yr by Macca

On 07/01/2016 at 4:42 PM, old dee said:

An extremely good question

Tuesday 12th January is the answer, it seems ...

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news-essendon-decision-date-set-by-court-of-arbitration-for-sport-20160109-gm2f34.html

1 hour ago, Satyriconhome said:

He could also be one of the players who actually refused to take part in the program, when asked he plays a straight bat, which he has to to protect the identity of the 34, he wasn't getting games when Hird was in charge, could be one of the reasons why, and he/we won't be impacted by the decision at all

Is that from Milky Saty? He did not partake? 

So what happens if they are not guilty?

On 5 January 2016 at 8:09 AM, old dee said:

Wow the big 50 BR!!!!!

I am now 2/3rds of Satan!

aint that a revelation?

Edited January 9, 20169 yr by Barney Rubble
Spelling

9 minutes ago, biggestred said:

So what happens if they are not guilty?

We have a good laugh?

Either way, I'll be accepting of the outcome. A not guilty verdict won't mean that they won't have paid some sort of price ... as it stands, the 3 year saga has damaged the EFC to quite a degree anyway.

It will take that club quite some time to become properly relevant again regardless of the outcome. They are coming from a long way back and their list is below average.

48 minutes ago, biggestred said:

So what happens if they are not guilty?

if not guilty one side will be outraged and the other will say see we told you all along 

if  guilty the other side will be outraged and lawyer-up,  the rest will bask in delayed schadenfreude

guilty or not guilty the afl will still look like hopeless morons whilst the legal fraternity will stay up late counting their windfall riches 

 

2 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

I am tipping the entire 2016 season for all 34 players

Not sure what management should get. 

Doc Reid should be struck off i know that!!

 Be nice if they have the power to also make Hird (in particular) repay his entire 2014-2015 earnings derived from football.

1 hour ago, biggestred said:

So what happens if they are not guilty?

Athletes the world over will be telling their coach to inject when what ever they like but will make sure no one tells them what it is or keeps records. 

Unfortunately the precedent will have been set

1 hour ago, Chris said:

Athletes the world over will be telling their coach to inject when what ever they like but will make sure no one tells them what it is or keeps records. 

Unfortunately the precedent will have been set

That sort of stuff is already happening and has been happening for a very long time

I'm talking about a means to an end rather than the actual process you have mentioned Chris (which would vary from sport to sport - especially the big 5 sports - Soccer, NBA, NHL, MLB & the NFL)

The issue is transparency and using one's common sense to see what is actually happening.

It's my opinion that PED use in sport around the world is out of control and has been out of control for quite some time - for people to think that only "certain" sports are targeted by drug cheats is either naïve or they just want to ignore the inconvenient truth.

Olympic sports and cycling testing procedures & standards and the quantity of testing is far far greater than most other sports so therefore more athletes are going to be caught in those sports.

Check out what the big 5 sports are doing about the use of PED's in their respective sports - it amounts to SFA in my opinion but people mistakenly think those sports are somehow clean.

There is a very real soft approach to the use of PED's in sport these days - rather than keep up the fight many have simply given up.

That's not to refute what you've said ... I just have an added take on things.

As an example, here's the wiki page on PED use & substance abuse (and suspensions) in the NFL  (American Football) There are numerous offenders - especially more recently. I enjoy watching the NFL but I also recognise that there is a major issue with PED use in the sport. Moreover, the NFL's testing procedures and standards are not great either (yet they still catch numerous PED users)

I'm of the belief that we can have clean sport in Australia but world wide, I'm not so sure.

Edited January 9, 20169 yr by Macca

Interestingly appropriate that the Finish line comes on Tuesday....I'll be in Helsinki 

Tram tickets will be dampened on Monday

19 minutes ago, old dee said:

Tram tickets will be dampened on Monday

Maybe....but the sledgehammer is coming out Tuesday 

1 hour ago, Macca said:

That sort of stuff is already happening and has been happening for a very long time

I'm talking about a means to an end rather than the actual process you have mentioned Chris (which would vary from sport to sport - especially the big 5 sports - Soccer, NBA, NHL, MLB & the NFL)

The issue is transparency and using one's common sense to see what is actually happening.

It's my opinion that PED use in sport around the world is out of control and has been out of control for quite some time - for people to think that only "certain" sports are targeted by drug cheats is either naïve or they just want to ignore the inconvenient truth.

Olympic sports and cycling testing procedures & standards and the quantity of testing is far far greater than most other sports so therefore more athletes are going to be caught in those sports.

Check out what the big 5 sports are doing about the use of PED's in their respective sports - it amounts to SFA in my opinion but people mistakenly think those sports are somehow clean.

There is a very real soft approach to the use of PED's in sport these days - rather than keep up the fight many have simply given up.

That's not to refute what you've said ... I just have an added take on things.

As an example, here's the wiki page on PED use & substance abuse (and suspensions) in the NFL  (American Football) There are numerous offenders - especially more recently. I enjoy watching the NFL but I also recognise that there is a major issue with PED use in the sport. Moreover, the NFL's testing procedures and standards are not great either (yet they still catch numerous PED users)

I'm of the belief that we can have clean sport in Australia but world wide, I'm not so sure.

A couple of points. I am fairly sure four of those five haven't signed up to the WADA code, most likely so they can hide things and not get caught out like the AFL have. The second thing is that cricket is the second biggest sport in the world so would be one of the big five as you put it, not sure they do much on drugs either though. 

10 minutes ago, Chris said:

A couple of points. I am fairly sure four of those five haven't signed up to the WADA code, most likely so they can hide things and not get caught out like the AFL have. The second thing is that cricket is the second biggest sport in the world so would be one of the big five as you put it, not sure they do much on drugs either though. 

t20 cricket is boosting up cricket's overall appeal but in terms of money, salaries, spectators, tv rights etc it lags way behind the other 5 big sports ... each NFL team alone gets 188 million dollars from tv rights (every season)

Baseball attracts up to 4 million actual spectators every week (apart from the tens of millions of TV viewers) and the NBA and the NHL are huge sports. Soccer is in a league of it's own in terms of worldwide appeal.

I agree with you on the hiding of things though (in a roundabout way) ... it's not in the best interests of the big sports to have tight testing procedures and standards (as well as penalties) ... the less they do, the less the athletes are caught. And the less the public will think those sports aren't clean.

These sporting bodies are there to make money and promote the sport - if they really wanted to do something worthwhile they'd sign up to the strongest WADA code and do weekly/fortnightly blood tests.

Chances of that happening - zilch.

As I said earlier, I believe we can have clean sport in Australia but worldwide, it's a very big ask.

1 hour ago, Macca said:

t20 cricket is boosting up cricket's overall appeal but in terms of money, salaries, spectators, tv rights etc it lags way behind the other 5 big sports ... each NFL team alone gets 188 million dollars from tv rights (every season)

Baseball attracts up to 4 million actual spectators every week (apart from the tens of millions of TV viewers) and the NBA and the NHL are huge sports. Soccer is in a league of it's own in terms of worldwide appeal.

I agree with you on the hiding of things though (in a roundabout way) ... it's not in the best interests of the big sports to have tight testing procedures and standards (as well as penalties) ... the less they do, the less the athletes are caught. And the less the public will think those sports aren't clean.

These sporting bodies are there to make money and promote the sport - if they really wanted to do something worthwhile they'd sign up to the strongest WADA code and do weekly/fortnightly blood tests.

Chances of that happening - zilch.

As I said earlier, I believe we can have clean sport in Australia but worldwide, it's a very big ask.

I think you are forgetting the mass appeal of cricket through the more than 1 billion people in India, not to mention the rest of the sub continent and Africa. In terms of support and participation it is second only to Soccer on a global scale. You are right about the individual dollars for the clubs but the ones you list are very geographically limited which limits numbers of supporters. The only reason they get more dollars is due to the demographics of the country they are in, not the sheer number of supporters. 

2 hours ago, Chris said:

A couple of points. I am fairly sure four of those five haven't signed up to the WADA code, most likely so they can hide things and not get caught out like the AFL have. The second thing is that cricket is the second biggest sport in the world so would be one of the big five as you put it, not sure they do much on drugs either though. 

I think you could add Tennis to being one of the major TV sports and I heard last year that their ( the ATP or WCT) input into drug testing in the sport was between $250 Thou and $350 thou per annum.

Australia's "fruit cakes" couldn't possibly be on anything there, so that's cleared that up.

3 hours ago, Chris said:

I think you are forgetting the mass appeal of cricket through the more than 1 billion people in India, not to mention the rest of the sub continent and Africa. In terms of support and participation it is second only to Soccer on a global scale. You are right about the individual dollars for the clubs but the ones you list are very geographically limited which limits numbers of supporters. The only reason they get more dollars is due to the demographics of the country they are in, not the sheer number of supporters. 

No, I do understand the mass appeal of cricket in India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh but if all aspects of a sport are taken into account, then other sports are bigger than cricket. My view on a sport isn't just about the sheer number of supporters (passive or otherwise)

Previously I mentioned astronomical salaries, huge numbers of actual spectators at the games (often paying top dollar), massive tv rights money and worldwide appeal in sports other than cricket . In terms of actual numbers interested in a sport, cricket is right up there but that's only one aspect.

Basketball has widespread popularity as does baseball ... ice hockey is massive in Europe and the NFL generates enormous sums of money. The world's best players in baseball, basketball and ice hockey are attracted to the MLB, NBA, & the NHL - those 3 Leagues are "International Leagues" much like the EPL is in soccer ... Multiple NFL games are played at Wembley in London every year to sellout crowds - and the patrons are paying decent coin for the privilege. 

Test cricket is actually one of my favourite sports to watch so I could be biased if I was that way inclined. I'm happy to agree to disagree, all the same. I will concede that cricket is on the rise (with a bullet) mainly because of the impact that t20 cricket will have going forward.

Not sure where cricket stands with regards to WADA but I'm guessing it's on a country by country basis ... cricketers in Australia probably fall under the strongest WADA code/agreement but again, I can't be sure on that one. How many times are our cricketers tested and are there blood tests involved? Blood passports have been created in pro cycling but not many, if any sports have followed suit (Olympic sports aside)

Anyway ... would you agree that most Aussies only seem to care about PED use when the story is away from our shores and we can point the finger? Would you also agree that Aussies tend to turn a blind eye when PED use happens here?

 

 

Edited January 9, 20169 yr by Macca

13 hours ago, Barney Rubble said:

I am now 2/3rds of Satan!

aint that a revelation?

Satan says hi

The closer we get to decision day, the less interested I get in the actual result because this is one of those cases where the passing of time makes the judicial outcome virtually meaningless.

There's this well worn vision of an exchange between Gerard Whateley and James Hird on AFL360 where the latter claims the AFL Tribunal exonerated his players from using any banned substances and the former correctly states that was not the case, rather that ASADA had failed to convince the Tribunal to the standard of comfortable satisfaction, as to the contents of the substances ingested by the players during the club's year long programme. Never mind of course, that no evidence of anything much could be found at Hird's club - all of it gone, vanished into the ether.

 

So four years after the event and almost three years after details of the programme were made public, we have no justice other than that which has been delayed and denied thanks to political interference, bungled attempts by a conflicted AFL to smooth things over, a hardworking but understaffed and ineffective investigatory regime, a club and its officials stonewalling at almost every step of the way from the ex-CEO, to the ex-coach and the still current club doctor while the apparent chief villain of the piece still refuses to produce the evidence he claims will set the players free. 

 

So in the end, Tuesday will bring no surprises and won't change anything from my point of view. Whatever happens, it will act as a liberating influence for the Essendon Football Club and its players because it will bring an end to four lost years that were in themselves, more than adequate punishment. If there's a finding of guilt then there will be further punishment but either way, there are no heroes in all of this, not even the players.

 

Only villains.

 

11 hours ago, Macca said:

No, I do understand the mass appeal of cricket in India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh but if all aspects of a sport are taken into account, then other sports are bigger than cricket. My view on a sport isn't just about the sheer number of supporters (passive or otherwise)

Previously I mentioned astronomical salaries, huge numbers of actual spectators at the games (often paying top dollar), massive tv rights money and worldwide appeal in sports other than cricket . In terms of actual numbers interested in a sport, cricket is right up there but that's only one aspect.

Basketball has widespread popularity as does baseball ... ice hockey is massive in Europe and the NFL generates enormous sums of money. The world's best players in baseball, basketball and ice hockey are attracted to the MLB, NBA, & the NHL - those 3 Leagues are "International Leagues" much like the EPL is in soccer ... Multiple NFL games are played at Wembley in London every year to sellout crowds - and the patrons are paying decent coin for the privilege. 

Test cricket is actually one of my favourite sports to watch so I could be biased if I was that way inclined. I'm happy to agree to disagree, all the same. I will concede that cricket is on the rise (with a bullet) mainly because of the impact that t20 cricket will have going forward.

Not sure where cricket stands with regards to WADA but I'm guessing it's on a country by country basis ... cricketers in Australia probably fall under the strongest WADA code/agreement but again, I can't be sure on that one. How many times are our cricketers tested and are there blood tests involved? Blood passports have been created in pro cycling but not many, if any sports have followed suit (Olympic sports aside)

Anyway ... would you agree that most Aussies only seem to care about PED use when the story is away from our shores and we can point the finger? Would you also agree that Aussies tend to turn a blind eye when PED use happens here?

 

 

Will have to agree to disagree, my take is that having more supporters of a sport and more participants is the only real measure you can use as a lack of money among supporters, and subsequent lack of sponsorship dollars due to less dollars to make cant be used as a measure. At a guess I would say there are more crickey supporters in India alone than the entire population of North America, where these sports have the vast majority of their supporters. 

I agree about most Aussies attitudes to PED's. We love being strong in them when it isn't us and if it is us then they are poor victims of a harsh code. Bloody hypocrisy that drives me nuts. As far as I am concerned if you get caught you are a cheat, and there are very few rules in sport which when broken can you be called a cheat, but this is one. 

On 9 January 2016 at 6:54 AM, Whispering_Jack said:

The closer we get to decision day, the less interested I get in the actual result because this is one of those cases where the passing of time makes the judicial outcome virtually meaningless.

There's this well worn vision of an exchange between Gerard Whateley and James Hird on AFL360 where the latter claims the AFL Tribunal exonerated his players from using any banned substances and the former correctly states that was not the case, rather that ASADA had failed to convince the Tribunal to the standard of comfortable satisfaction, as to the contents of the substances ingested by the players during the club's year long programme. Never mind of course, that no evidence of anything much could be found at Hird's club - all of it gone, vanished into the ether.

 

So four years after the event and almost three years after details of the programme were made public, we have no justice other than that which has been delayed and denied thanks to political interference, bungled attempts by a conflicted AFL to smooth things over, a hardworking but understaffed and ineffective investigatory regime, a club and its officials stonewalling at almost every step of the way from the ex-CEO, to the ex-coach and the still current club doctor while the apparent chief villain of the piece still refuses to produce the evidence he claims will set the players free. 

 

So in the end, Tuesday will bring no surprises and won't change anything from my point of view. Whatever happens, it will act as a liberating influence for the Essendon Football Club and its players because it will bring an end to four lost years that were in themselves, more than adequate punishment. If there's a finding of guilt then there will be further punishment but either way, there are no heroes in all of this, not even the players.

 

Only villains.

 

The players are very low in the list of potential heroes in this, I put the staff at ASADA and WADA as close as anyone, the have toiled away in the face of political influences and interference from all and sundry and yet are still there fighting for what is right. Win or lose you can't fault their determination and want to uphold the standards we have agreed to play to.