what struck me a lot was how hands off bails and neeld seemed to be at training...neeld more so

it seems to me roos is much more hands on and involved. can only be a good thing methinks

Every time a new coaching regime comes in we hear how the training standards are lifting, personally I noticed very little difference between when Bailey and Neeld were coaching.

And good on him.

But on his past results he has jumped the gun way too early and sucked everyone in. Every year he talks about Professionalism this, Professionalism that..

My personal opinion is that this year I will wait till round 1 to see if he is on the board.

I didn't jump the gun , when I say professional training and the intensity, that means in the running etc, that never changes, the players are professional athletes both Bailey's and Neeld's coaching of the footy side failed with the cattle they had and the level of fitness required as the game had changed.

Neeld at least tried to improve the fitness during the pre season, even in Bailey's last year the training looked good, unfortunately inside the head of the players hadn't been fixed.

Even Roos found that in the second half of the season and couldn't do anything about it.

What I am noticing is the standards in the little things that are changing and with the change of personnel and the way they are coached, we may have the heads in the right place finally

what struck me a lot was how hands off bails and neeld seemed to be at training...neeld more so

it seems to me roos is much more hands on and involved. can only be a good thing methinks

that does not point to one coach being better then another coach, I think it depends what where the list is at, with a young side that's on the bottom the coach should be more hand on, Alistair Clarkson has not taken a training drill at hawthorn for 5 years, I bet he was more hand on when he started then now, I think that is a reason he is reluctant to leave hawthorn, I bet coaching at hawthorn is easier then at Melbourne, I think that's a reason why good coaches lose that winning ways, when they have to start all over again with a young list.

A coach is only as good as the playing group allows themselves to be. It's got nothing to do with Roosy that our second half of last season was an embarassment.

Literally no other coach could've done a better job than Mr. Roos, in my opinion. The state of our list was miles from AFL standard until this year.

Do you get a good view from your high horse.

If I cross the line with a question, the players tell me so, I have a really good relationship with most of them, having talked to them at other things besides training

The irony, considering the way you routinely attack posters on here if their opinion differs from yours.

How do you see that?

Tall young defender that rarely gets beaten and has a facet of his game, his endurance, that is a major weapon against the best forwards in the comp.

If you judge a tall defender on his basic skills, you are missing the point of; 1. What key position defenders should be primarily judged for, and 2. What makes skills so important for a team.

Defenders do their job when the opponents are not winning the footy, and skills are important for the 10 players on a team that get more than a handful of kicks a game, if they get less kicks than that and are still in the team - then they are not in the team to get kicks.

Like the excellent Tom McDonald.

I think there is more to a full-back than to keep up on the lead with a full forward,which McDonald does well. It's actually his footballing ability that I find poor. Is he a decent contested mark? No, Is he good at setting up play from the backline? No. Can he make good, quick decisions with ball in hand? No. Can he dispose of the pill in a way that helps to relieve pressure on team-mates? No. I'm very sorry I expect more from an AFL-standard key defender. To me, ball in hand, he's like a deer in headlights. You'd hope with 60 games in the bank he'll develop into a McPharlane type in the future. But as I see it a Alistair Nicholson-type is more likely.

As athletic as McDonald is, his decision-making and footballing ability is sub-AFL standard, worryingly so.

He's still learning. N. Jones took a while to improve his disposal as well, but look where he is now.

I think there is more to a full-back than to keep up on the lead with a full forward,which McDonald does well. It's actually his footballing ability that I find poor. Is he a decent contested mark? No, Is he good at setting up play from the backline? No. Can he make good, quick decisions with ball in hand? No. Can he dispose of the pill in a way that helps to relieve pressure on team-mates? No. I'm very sorry I expect more from an AFL-standard key defender. To me, ball in hand, he's like a deer in headlights. You'd hope with 60 games in the bank he'll develop into a McPharlane type in the future. But as I see it a Alistair Nicholson-type is more likely.

As athletic as McDonald is, his decision-making and footballing ability is sub-AFL standard, worryingly so.

Well hell, why don't we just bring Strauss back and make him FB? He's a great kick, can set up play, has pace. He can't defend or win a 1-1 contest to save himself, but apparently those aren't qualities we look for in a key defender, so it won't be a real loss.

Well hell, why don't we just bring Strauss back and make him FB? He's a great kick, can set up play, has pace. He can't defend or win a 1-1 contest to save himself, but apparently those aren't qualities we look for in a key defender, so it won't be a real loss.

I think both sides to this have validity.

Yes, T Mac in his primary role as a key defender has the makings of one of the competition's elite. But in the other facets he is positively awkward and sub-AFL standard. That is a concern no matter where you play in the modern game. Hopefully the skills and decison making will improve over time as it can often do. But it would want to start soon.

And as a disclaimer for Saty's benefit, the above is not being said to "make myself feel better".

The irony, considering the way you routinely attack posters on here if their opinion differs from yours.

I don't personally attack, like the garbage I receive, but I am man enough to take it, I use humour and a bit of sarcasm, I hope I haven't written too much, don't want you getting your lips in a tangle whilst you read it. Don't read my posts precious

Back on topic, some of the comments about McDonald are just plain ridiculous, best full back last year, must be the one in the winning team, one Brian Lake, and we all know he came fully formed as a great full back at 20-21

I think both sides to this have validity.

Yes, T Mac in his primary role as a key defender has the makings of one of the competition's elite. But in the other facets he is positively awkward and sub-AFL standard. That is a concern no matter where you play in the modern game. Hopefully the skills and decison making will improve over time as it can often do. But it would want to start soon.

And as a disclaimer for Saty's benefit, the above is not being said to "make myself feel better".

No I agree Tommy Mc looks like he could be a star, but has a bit of work to do, his kicking at training is getting better, of course that has to translate to match day, but it will help to have somebody like Lumumba to be able to get some tips off as well as the coaches

I don't personally attack, like the garbage I receive, but I am man enough to take it, I use humour and a bit of sarcasm, I hope I haven't written too much, don't want you getting your lips in a tangle whilst you read it. Don't read my posts precious

Back on topic, some of the comments about McDonald are just plain ridiculous, best full back last year, must be the one in the winning team, one Brian Lake, and we all know he came fully formed as a great full back at 20-21

Head against brick wall time.

Your constant sarcasm on here isn't being humourous. It's blatant rudeness, and you know it, yet act shocked when it is thrown back at you.

I question someone who forms what he deems "relationships" with the players, but seemingly treats fellow supporters like dirt. If you're a player or coach you're invariably a top bloke. If you're a supporter who in any way questions the status quo or doesn't tow the company line, you're a "whinger" not worth the time of day.

I applaud some of your contributions to the club, but god help us if everyone meekly accepted the way things were during the Neeld/Schwab era and tore strips off anyone who questioned it.

Tom's kicking is actually not terrible. The problem is his decision-making, and fortunately that is something that can be fixed.

None of the criticism surrounding Jordie has been about his fitness. Out of contract at years end.

One of the main skills required to olay this game is the ability to kick the ball.

He does not possess this skill.

I like Bail and think he will keep his place in the team, but I'm not sure where the improvement comes from?

Can't see him getting much more midfield time (although his first quarter in the Adelaide win was impressive). His tank has always been right up there (vaguely remember he represented Aus in junior athletic for middle distance running), so can't see much improvement there.

If he can add more penetration to his kicking maybe he could become a damaging outside player?

I think his improvement would have to come in the form of decision makinh and elimnating the brain faded that cost us a two goal turn around.

As athletic as McDonald is, his decision-making and footballing ability is sub-AFL standard, worryingly so.

I'm not sure which McDonald your talking about.. The one I've been watching backs himself in to drill targets out of the backline and hits them more often than not..

I think there is more to a full-back than to keep up on the lead with a full forward,which McDonald does well. It's actually his footballing ability that I find poor. Is he a decent contested mark? No, Is he good at setting up play from the backline? No. Can he make good, quick decisions with ball in hand? No. Can he dispose of the pill in a way that helps to relieve pressure on team-mates? No. I'm very sorry I expect more from an AFL-standard key defender. To me, ball in hand, he's like a deer in headlights. You'd hope with 60 games in the bank he'll develop into a McPharlane type in the future. But as I see it a Alistair Nicholson-type is more likely.

If your FB/CHB is 'setting up play' you may as well raise the white flag, inform the bookies, and walk off the field.

His pertinent skills involve what you don't see eventuating, not what you see him screw up a couple times a game.

I really don't think that you could ask for a better 22 year old defender and his exposed form over his overworked first few years.

As athletic as McDonald is, his decision-making and footballing ability is sub-AFL standard, worryingly so.

Footballing ability? What have you been watching?

Mcdonald is a fantastic footballer in terms of a defender. While his skills need a touch up its not as bad as your making out to be.

What I love about him is he loves to back himself and attack. None of this chip sideways or backwards.

Will only get better.

I expect him to be pushing near All Australian next year.

Footballing ability? What have you been watching?

Mcdonald is a fantastic footballer in terms of a defender. While his skills need a touch up its not as bad as your making out to be.

What I love about him is he loves to back himself and attack. None of this chip sideways or backwards.

Will only get better.

I expect him to be pushing near All Australian next year.

i agree with your thoughts.

What McDonald has started to do well is run with the football and draw an opponent meaning that he is able to give the handball off, but during the year he also tred to do this and when he was corralled (not sure if thats how to spell that word) he got indecisive.

He can be a a 70m player in terms of running and kicking it long and i am happy when he does this, the only reason people dont rate his skill level is his tendency to make one or two costly errors a game, but he also saves 5-6 goals through being our best one on one defender we have.

I don't personally attack, like the garbage I receive, but I am man enough to take it, I use humour and a bit of sarcasm, I hope I haven't written too much, don't want you getting your lips in a tangle whilst you read it. Don't read my posts precious

Bollocks. You personally attack most times you respond to other poster's comments. Your reply here is evidence of this.

If your FB/CHB is 'setting up play' you may as well raise the white flag, inform the bookies, and walk off the field.

His pertinent skills involve what you don't see eventuating, not what you see him screw up a couple times a game.

I really don't think that you could ask for a better 22 year old defender and his exposed form over his overworked first few years.

Firstly, I am a McDonald fan. I liked him the first time I saw him playing for Casey down at Werribee, had to ask someone who number 74 (I think that was his number) was. Him and Howe looked promising and both were playing senior football not long after that.

As for setting up play, I think you are exaggerating to make a point here. Matty Scarlett is a prime example of a FB who set up play as does Harry Taylor from CHB and I don't think the Cats raised any white flags.

James Frawley is a ready made player. Frost will need time. I'm worried for him. A couple of blunders (like the one he made against us this year) and he'll be very quickly placed under the Demonland microscope. He seems like a good kid with the physical tools to make it. Whether he can defend and read the play and make good choice with the pill remains to be seen. Give him a chance and be understanding of where he is at in his development. Frawley was far from the finished article after his first three seasons.

Frawley was an AA in his fourth season...

Tom's kicking is actually not terrible. The problem is his decision-making, and fortunately that is something that can be fixed.

Would hope that with something to kick to down the ground, his decision making will look a bit better. Tom gets himself by running into space and then realising there's no one down the ground to kick to, at which point he panics and tries to do something outside of his skill level (like hit a 50m bullet pass).

Firstly, I am a McDonald fan. I liked him the first time I saw him playing for Casey down at Werribee, had to ask someone who number 74 (I think that was his number) was. Him and Howe looked promising and both were playing senior football not long after that.

As for setting up play, I think you are exaggerating to make a point here. Matty Scarlett is a prime example of a FB who set up play as does Harry Taylor from CHB and I don't think the Cats raised any white flags.

You are describing a generational FB - one of the best the game has ever seen - a high standard that is unfair to hold any FB to, and you mention a teammate of his that also does it, and Mackie does it, and Enright, and Corey.

Surely it would be easier for a FB/CHB to help set up play if the entire defence is adept at doing so. Perhaps they were able to do so because their teammates were so adept...

It's funny how people can watcgth, closely, the same players and reach different conclusions. I can't see how anyone could characterize TMac as a poor decision maker. Perhaps he overreaches (which i like nd think he should continue doing) but i think he is excellent decision maker.

I think at times he chooses not to take the high risk, yet best option (eg to a player by himself on the fat side of the ground but requiring a kick across the face of goals) because he is worried about turning it over and instead takes a less risky option (eg down the line to a pack) that at times appears to be a poor decision (well guess it is, but not because he lacks footy smarts, but becase he has a poor kicking technique).

However i suspect Roos has encouraged him to take risks and in doing so, particularly when crossing the ball, the impact of his poor kicking technique is magnified.