The one that got away

[rjay 24,928]

What was the the fatal flaw in his natural talent that would not have allowed him to be a top line player?

Lack of awareness and peripheral vision.

Mathews worked this out when he said he really likes to see the game play out in front of him and is more a hit up forward and didn't have it to be a mid.

[Axis of Bob 11,811]

His peripheral vision wasn't elite, but it was certainly more than good enough to have allowed him to be a top line footballer based on his other elite talents.

He's Patrick Dangerfield, minus the desire to be Patrick Dangerfield.

[rjay 24,928]

His peripheral vision wasn't elite, but it was certainly more than good enough to have allowed him to be a top line footballer based on his other elite talents.

He's Patrick Dangerfield, minus the desire to be Patrick Dangerfield.

No he's not 'Bob', he's nowhere near.

He is a KPF without the size to be one, he doesn't have some of the most important attributes to be a top class mid or play anywhere else on the ground as an elite player.

He got to be an AFL player on his other talents which include his strength, marking ability, long kick etc.which are elite, he didn't become an A grader because his peripheral vision and awareness weren't elite. The great players, the game slows down around them, this is what I see in Tyson and why he will be an A grader.

All this desire, not wanting it enough and other rubbish I've been reading and hearing about him for years is a crock.

[nutbean 8,838]

I don't get where you're going with this. The above couldn't be written about many players it was written about a gun junior footballer, one of the top 10 TAC cup players I've seen amongst thousands. The fact is Sylvia was a better TAC cup player and prospect than either Petracca or Brayshaw and a large part of the blame why he hasn't lived up to his potential is probably to do with his work rate and attitude and a fair portion is too do with injury. He has still put in a decent enough career and a fair bit better than that of Kane Tenace and Ryley Dunn who most on Demonland wanted us to draft. As far as I'm concerned you have just wasted 400 odd words and 5 minutes of my life I won't get back on a pointless drivel of a topic.

Don't get where he is going? Read through the McCartin Bradshaw petracca threads and some are suggesting that it doesn't matter who we get as all 3 will be really good footballers. History tells us that at least one won't be. So many are seduced by gushy reports and a three minute best of package which is taken over a season or two.

I hope the draftees will be all they are hyped up to be. But I won't be yelling "we nailed it" until we have actually nailed it.

If you think the post was about Sylvia then you have missed the point of the post.

[Little Goffy 14,545]

Can't help but feel there's a connection to be drawn between Sylvia's weaknesses and Koschitzke's, and with very similar career results right down to 'just one good preseason'.

Lack of awareness, lack of a habit to fight to break even when beaten on the first movement, lack of quick thinking and cooperative instinct when things get messy.

They grew up winning, and failed to cultivate their inner zen gardens. Or something.

[Axis of Bob 11,811]

No he's not 'Bob', he's nowhere near.

He is a KPF without the size to be one, he doesn't have some of the most important attributes to be a top class mid or play anywhere else on the ground as an elite player.

He got to be an AFL player on his other talents which include his strength, marking ability, long kick etc.which are elite, he didn't become an A grader because his peripheral vision and awareness weren't elite. The great players, the game slows down around them, this is what I see in Tyson and why he will be an A grader.

All this desire, not wanting it enough and other rubbish I've been reading and hearing about him for years is a crock.

I disagree. He liked to play as a KPF because it suited his low work rate. However he had genuine midfielder attributes. I also believe that you have a very narrow view on what a midfielder is, as Sylvia should have been one.

Is Adam Goodes a top line midfielder? He plays a straight line game and just uses his raw power when playing as a midfielder.

Is Travis Boak a top line midfielder? He's basically a straight line player who uses his awesome power running to win the footy.

Griffen? Dangerfield? Deledio?

Sylvia was/is a power player. He takes the ball and runs hard and direct, cutting the game open with this running. They are a very rare and valuable type of player to have in the midfield.

Tyson, the player you compare him with, is at the exact other end of the midfielder spectrum. He is not particularly quick, but is very clever. But their talents lie in different areas and they are different types of midfielder. Just in the same way that Buddy Franklin and Kurt Tippett are very different types of player, but still top level key forwards.

Your expectation of what a midfielder should be is too narrow. Sylvia could have been a top line midfielder that killed teams with his brute power and power running talents. But to be a top line power runner you need to have the deep seated willingness to outrun your opponents .... which requires hard work. His ultimate talent was as a power runner, but he never gave himself the opportunity to exploit that fully.

[rjay 24,928]

I disagree. He liked to play as a KPF because it suited his low work rate. However he had genuine midfielder attributes. I also believe that you have a very narrow view on what a midfielder is, as Sylvia should have been one.

Is Adam Goodes a top line midfielder? He plays a straight line game and just uses his raw power when playing as a midfielder.

Is Travis Boak a top line midfielder? He's basically a straight line player who uses his awesome power running to win the footy.

Griffen? Dangerfield? Deledio?

Sylvia was/is a power player. He takes the ball and runs hard and direct, cutting the game open with this running. They are a very rare and valuable type of player to have in the midfield.

Tyson, the player you compare him with, is at the exact other end of the midfielder spectrum. He is not particularly quick, but is very clever. But their talents lie in different areas and they are different types of midfielder. Just in the same way that Buddy Franklin and Kurt Tippett are very different types of player, but still top level key forwards.

Your expectation of what a midfielder should be is too narrow. Sylvia could have been a top line midfielder that killed teams with his brute power and power running talents. But to be a top line power runner you need to have the deep seated willingness to outrun your opponents .... which requires hard work. His ultimate talent was as a power runner, but he never gave himself the opportunity to exploit that fully.

There is no way I am comparing Tyson with Silvia, I'm saying he will make it and the other is a fail.

Talk all you like but the results are on the board, Silvia is not an A grader never has been, never will be.

As for Goodes, he has outstanding vision if you think he is all about straight ahead power you would have to be kidding. All the great mids have awareness and vision, it's one trait they all share. How they use it and the other attributes they have mean we can have a broad spectrum of mids not a narrow zone. Mitchell, Pendles, Boak, Ablett, Goodes, Roughead, they all have it.

Can't help but feel there's a connection to be drawn between Sylvia's weaknesses and Koschitzke's, and with very similar career results right down to 'just one good preseason'.

Lack of awareness, lack of a habit to fight to break even when beaten on the first movement, lack of quick thinking and cooperative instinct when things get messy.

They grew up winning, and failed to cultivate their inner zen gardens. Or something.

Spot on 'Goffy', I've always thought of them as 2 peas in a pod.

[Axis of Bob 11,811]

Talk all you like but the results are on the board, Silvia is not an A grader never has been, never will be.

And this, as I suspected, is the crux of your argument.

You are looking at his career backwards rather than forwards. You decided that he wasn't and top liner and then were shoehorning reasons why his talent never allowed him to become one. I am looking at his career the other way, where I look at the player he could have become based on his talent level and attributes (which he showed as an ultra-dominant junior).

[Little Goffy 14,545]

On the bright side, Fremantle recruited him with a view to boosting their midfield strength and scoring power.

Now he is just adding to the jam on their list and taking up a spot which could have been a youngster, on a list which I am told is right now the oldest team list in AFL/VFL history.

I guess what I am saying is, like Tom Scully, he's not our problem and we did very well in the process of 'losing' him.

[jumbo returns 6,741]

On the bright side, Fremantle recruited him with a view to boosting their midfield strength and scoring power.

Now he is just adding to the jam on their list and taking up a spot which could have been a youngster, on a list which I am told is right now the oldest team list in AFL/VFL history.

I guess what I am saying is, like Tom Scully, he's not our problem and we did very well in the process of 'losing' him.

Viva Vince!

[IvanBartul13 2,564]

Don't get where he is going? Read through the McCartin Bradshaw petracca threads and some are suggesting that it doesn't matter who we get as all 3 will be really good footballers. History tells us that at least one won't be. So many are seduced by gushy reports and a three minute best of package which is taken over a season or two.

I hope the draftees will be all they are hyped up to be. But I won't be yelling "we nailed it" until we have actually nailed it.

If you think the post was about Sylvia then you have missed the point of the post.

I think using Sylvia is a poor example as he was a better talent than both our top 3 draftees and his 40 possession, four goal game against Hawthorn is probably the best individual game by a Melbourne player for the last half a dozen years and even with hindsight taking him at 3 was pretty spot on and not a manifest error. His output at Freo is an aberration. Which means it is either basically a lament of a potential champion didn't become one or the moral of the story is too not believe what is written by the Bigfooty profilers, which should be obvious. It is impossible for them to see enough of the broad spectrum of footballers they cover and as for as I know none are the work of syndicate of talent identifiers. The likelihood of the top 3 picks in my draft having no impact at all is also extremely remote and history dictates this. The fact is that Brayshaw and Perracca are so wildly overrated by Demonland it isn't funny, but they are both promising footballers.

[nutbean 8,838]

I think using Sylvia is a poor example as he was a better talent than both our top 3 draftees and his 40 possession, four goal game against Hawthorn is probably the best individual game by a Melbourne player for the last half a dozen years and even with hindsight taking him at 3 was pretty spot on and not a manifest error. His output at Freo is an aberration. Which means it is either basically a lament of a potential champion didn't become one or the moral of the story is too not believe what is written by the Bigfooty profilers, which should be obvious. It is impossible for them to see enough of the broad spectrum of footballers they cover and as for as I know none are the work of syndicate of talent identifiers. The likelihood of the top 3 picks in my draft having no impact at all is also extremely remote and history dictates this. The fact is that Brayshaw and Perracca are so wildly overrated by Demonland it isn't funny, but they are both promising footballers.

Sylvia's career has been a disappointment to me.

I think Sylvia is the same sort of example as dozens of others over the years. Snapshots of very talented TAC footballer with little knowledge as to whether they will go on and be A,B,C or F grade footballers. These snapshots suck supporters in. It is not that recruiters, journo's don't see enough of the junior footballers. The problems is that we are selecting 8 week old puppies and extrapolating what they will be like as 4 year old dogs.

The issue is not that Brayshaw and Petracca are wildly overrated - it is the timing of it. I am excited by the fact that they seem promising but surely posters have seen enough of draft picks from all clubs who look promising at draft time that don't progress to temper their "we really nailed it" and "ready to go day one" pronouncements.

[nutbean 8,838]

. The likelihood of the top 3 picks in my draft having no impact at all is also extremely remote and history dictates this.

Seriously ?

Then you are better than all the recruiters and journalist combined.

The last draft where the top 3 picks have made an impact befitting top 3 picks is the Judd,Hodge,Ball draft. I have discounted the last three drafts as it is too early to pass judgement on these kids yet.

(my judgement is not based on whether they have no impact at all - but whether they have been in the top echelon of footballers - for example - I think Xavier Ellis has been a bust at 3 - but I think Luke Ball, although no champion was a more than serviceable footballer)

[rjay 24,928]

And this, as I suspected, is the crux of your argument.

You are looking at his career backwards rather than forwards. You decided that he wasn't and top liner and then were shoehorning reasons why his talent never allowed him to become one. I am looking at his career the other way, where I look at the player he could have become based on his talent level and attributes (which he showed as an ultra-dominant junior).

...and you would be absolutely incorrect; I noticed he had a problem the first game I saw him play for Sandringham.

[Oneday 248]

When I read 'the one that got away' I got all excited and thought, great a place that I can talk about the one that DID get away during cod opening! But alas, as the wife says, NO ONE CARES.

[Axis of Bob 11,811]

...and you would be absolutely incorrect; I noticed he had a problem the first game I saw him play for Sandringham.

That you are making those judgements after a single game of VFL football (let alone one where he was coming off a long term injury, playing limited minutes out of the goalsquare) is more concerning.

[Bossdog 2,002]

I have stated this before about Sylvia......In his last season playing with us

5th in kicks

2nd in long kicks

5th in contested marks

4th in handballs

5th in handball received

2nd in tackles

1st in inside 50's

2nd in hard ball gets

5th in the b/f

He also played 157 games for 129 goals playing in terrible circumstances at a rabble of a club(at the time)

If he didn't live up to expectations, well so be it but I would consider that not a bad career

[rjay 24,928]

That you are making those judgements after a single game of VFL football (let alone one where he was coming off a long term injury, playing limited minutes out of the goalsquare) is more concerning.

I wouldn't be to concerned 'Bob', the judgement was correct.

Also had nothing to do with injury, fitness or form, it was to do with reaction with the ball in hand. That is a constant.

edit: My point on the Silvia debate is I think the expectations on him were way to high and that he never had the tools to be the A grader that we all wanted. I think, like 'Boss' said above that he's been a pretty decent AFL player all considered. You don't play 150 plus AFL games if you can't play.

Edited December 8, 2014 by rjay

[nutbean 8,838]

I wouldn't be to concerned 'Bob', the judgement was correct.

Also had nothing to do with injury, fitness or form, it was to do with reaction with the ball in hand. That is a constant.

edit: My point on the Silvia debate is I think the expectations on him were way to high and that he never had the tools to be the A grader that we all wanted. I think, like 'Boss' said above that he's been a pretty decent AFL player all considered. You don't play 150 plus AFL games if you can't play.

That's where we have always disagreed on Sylvia.

I have seen him tear games apart, tear quarters apart and tear "plays and minutes " apart. To my mind if a player can do that on an infrequent basis ( and few too many can) then the only thing stopping the player doing it on a frequent basis is attitude.

I for one had expectations on Sylvia which obviously were way too high as he did not deliver with any consistency.

[Axis of Bob 11,811]

I wouldn't be to concerned 'Bob', the judgement was correct.

I am concerned with the opinion of anyone that thinks that they can make consistently accurate judgements based on almost no information.

[rjay 24,928]

I am concerned with the opinion of anyone that thinks that they can make consistently accurate judgements based on almost no information.

It's based on a career 'Bob', I would think that's a lot of information. Over 150 plus games.

You originally accused me of using hindsight and that's not correct, now you accuse me of using one game or almost no information, also not correct.

Looking at the Sandy game I noticed something that I followed through Col's career and it was a consistent issue. Even you acknowledged that his peripheral vision was not a strong suit. Col doesn't have awareness of what's around him and is slow to react, if the game plays out in front of him he can be unstoppable but the game doesn't often work like this.

All I'm saying is that this is what has held him back from being an A grader and it's why he wasn't going to be one. I mean even Mathews recognised this a couple of years back.

So again I wouldn't be too concerned, there is a strong body of work out there to back up the opinion.

That's where we have always disagreed on Sylvia.

I have seen him tear games apart, tear quarters apart and tear "plays and minutes " apart. To my mind if a player can do that on an infrequent basis ( and few too many can) then the only thing stopping the player doing it on a frequent basis is attitude.

I for one had expectations on Sylvia which obviously were way too high as he did not deliver with any consistency.

Not always 'nut', sometimes the game plays out well for them. If you judge 'Tappy' by his first game for instance then he should be a star rather than a delisted player.

In Col's case he has a lot a great attributes, and I will give you that his attitude may not have been great, injury may also have been a contributing factor but I don't think he was ever going to be an A grader.

[nutbean 8,838]

Not always 'nut', sometimes the game plays out well for them. If you judge 'Tappy' by his first game for instance then he should be a star rather than a delisted player.

In Col's case he has a lot a great attributes, and I will give you that his attitude may not have been great, injury may also have been a contributing factor but I don't think he was ever going to be an A grader.

Tappy only had one moment in the sun as opposed to Col who did tease us a lot more but i do concede the point of how games are played make a difference to certain players.

I think game style will also be a problem for Howe unless he can add more tricks - hence Roos playing him in defence. When a game is open and quick it will suit his style as he will be able to be isolated one out with his opponent and outmark him on most occasions. When the game becomes slow and crowded he is in trouble as his run at the ball is quite easy to block and shepherd meaning his major weapon being his leap and mark is taken out of play.

Edited December 8, 2014 by nutbean

[rjay 24,928]

Tappy only had one moment in the sun as opposed to Col who did tease us a lot more but i do concede the point of how games are played make a difference to certain players.

I think game style will also be a problem for Howe unless he can add more tricks - hence Roos playing him in defence. When a game is open and quick it will suit his style as he will be able to be isolated one out with his opponent and outmark him on most occasions. When the game becomes slow and crowded he is in trouble as his run at the ball is quite easy to block and shepherd meaning his major weapon being his leap and mark is taken out of play.

Agree, this happens particularly when he is played deep forward. I think 2015 is a real make or break year for Howey, adding the defensive aspect to his game has got to be a real plus. If he can run and spread to pick up some easy ball he would be a real asset as a HHF or Wing/Mid.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Good old Col. Did he fail to reach his potential or is he a limited footballer?

The answer I suspect, is somewhere between the two, as it is with Jack Watts.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

I have stated this before about Sylvia......In his last season playing with us

5th in the b/f

but he played 10 years, and his best results apart from that last year were 5th, 6th and 10th. Not all that great.