It's pretty much the only indicator that counts in my book

Then "Stevie J" is lucky to get a game at Geelong.

I trust my own opinion more than B&F voting.

edit: one then too many.

Edited December 2, 201410 yr by rjay

I always thought it was more a case of Trengove and Grimes being the most appropriate candidates. Jones didn't appear ready at that stage and no one else was suitable. Trengove was clearly too young but the alternatives were virtually non-existent. Not sure there's any support for the notion that it was a marketing gimmick. Our leadership stocks at the time were deplorable. Our senior players were average on the field and worse off it. The Trengove/Grimes combination didn't work but that doesn't mean there was a better alternative.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I don't see how Jones wasn't ready yet somehow Trengove was the better alternative or was more ready. Appointing the youngest club captain in history was an extremely high risk move that at the time appeared negligent and was proven to be so. Granted there was extremely slim pickings at the time but any combination of Green, Jones, Grimes or even Davey would've been better. Green and Grimes as co-captains certainly would've been a smarter move than throwing a kid into the fire at a crucial time for the club.

Indefensible in my opinion, and Neeld's attempts to defend it were even worse than the decision itself. When questioned on it he would shrug his shoulders and say that "the spreadsheet told us they came out on top". All hail the spreadsheet. That king of decisionmakers.

Edited December 2, 201410 yr by P-man

It's pretty much the only indicator that counts in my book

Not for me - how do you explain one B&F for Robbie ?

To me B&F voting is always looked at in a different light than actual best players.

Many on here are singing the praises of Jetta yet are expecting so much more from Howe many say had an average year - Jetta finished 9th and Howe 6th. Look at Demonland voting - Viney coming in 4th and not in the top 10 in the B&F count.

Cross for VC, then in one, maybe two years when he's done VC goes to Dawes or Viney, then when Jones is on his last legs the VC steps up to just C. Done

Cross for VC, then in one, maybe two years when he's done VC goes to Dawes or Viney, then when Jones is on his last legs the VC steps up to just C. Done

Nah, just do it every year. It's not hard, it gives credibility to the leaders and you don't have issues with players inheriting what they shouldn't have.

Jack (and the other former captain Jack) has been through a terrible time as captain. Having to have the back of a coach that clearly didn't have the players, dealing with Jimmy's passing, and of course having the front up to the media and explain some truly shocking performances. All while struggling to maintain his own form and fitness.

He was the best we had at the time and from what I hear has a lot of respect from the players. He has a lot of things to work on as a player and he's recognised being captain may make it harder, and he also acknowledges as captain he needs to maintain certain expectations of himself.

A very selfless and mature thing to do, and I applaud him for it.

Jones obviously to be sole captain, but who to make VC? For me Dawes and/or Cross. Speaks volumes that we don't have many others who have been at Melbourne for long who can step into that role. Make Dawes the first choice VC as he has been here for longer and he has a little more of a connection built with older players, but because his body is so fragile have the durable Cross as a back up option.

Left field option is Dunn, really took his game to another level last year and loyalty has been reciprocated on both sides for a while. I just question where he's a leader.

[EDIT]

Also for those saying he's not best 22, while I agree he's not the first picked I think C&B's picture at bottom of his posts is a great example of why I think he's one that Roos admires and will continue to pick. As I said there's much he needs to improve on, but he's a good character I believe he will.

Edited December 2, 201410 yr by Pates

Dunn isn't left field for mine. He'd actually be my first choice for vice given the player and leader that he has become. He is now the marshal of the backline.

Certainly I no longer see a need for co-captains, given whoever would be selected would be playing second fiddle to Jones in much the same way that Grimes did.

I'm not sure Cross will be playing a full season in the firsts. He may well be in and out of the side.

Dunn has established himself as definitely in the best 22 and I gather has embraced his elevation to the leadership group.

I gather from the training reports he is one of the most vocal and hardest trainers.

Roos has had co-captains on most/all occasions (can't remember back that far). Also I'm sure you have heard Roos say on more than one occasion that the coach feels helpless at times in the box and having a strong leadership group that also coaches on field makes it easier. There are now 3 players within the team that have been captains, and many others that have been in leadership groups with melbourne or elsewhere. I still think there will actually be a co-captain setup for next year.

Edited December 2, 201410 yr by barra17

Roos has had co-captains on most/all occasions (can't remember back that far). Also I'm sure you have heard Roos say on more than one occasion that the coach feels helpless at times in the box and having a strong leadership group that also coaches on field makes it easier. There are now 3 players within the team that have been captains, and many others that have been in leadership groups with melbourne or elsewhere. I still think there will actually be a co-captain setup for next year.

That's because he's had co-captains, in other words players you couldn't split. In our case it's a little bit easier, Jones is the standout leader until the likes of Tyson, Viney and a few of the other young ones get some games and years under their belts.

Roos has had co-captains on most/all occasions (can't remember back that far). Also I'm sure you have heard Roos say on more than one occasion that the coach feels helpless at times in the box and having a strong leadership group that also coaches on field makes it easier. There are now 3 players within the team that have been captains, and many others that have been in leadership groups with melbourne or elsewhere. I still think there will actually be a co-captain setup for next year.

Agreed. There is a lot of off-field work: young players to support, team mates to motivate, sponsors/promotion, media meetings, coterie etc etc. While VC's can do some of it often the captain is the 'go to' person. A single cap works when there is a very strong, experienced leadership group which we do not have.

If we overburden him we run the risk of his on-field performance dropping off especially if we start having poor games...we saw the toll of explaining/defending poor performance took on JT and JG. I hate to say it but Jones, didn't really show a lot of on-field leadership last year...not being critical, it was only is first year so he is learning the ropes. He needs time to develop in the role on and off the field. A co-cap would be the way to go IMO.

Only problem is can't see who is ready to step up to co-cap tho'. Dunne, maybe. Dawes, maybe. No stand-out. Shows how far we have to go in developing our players.

Edited December 2, 201410 yr by Lucifer's Hero

Grimes needs to eat something, he looks incredibly skinny and weak.

I hate to say it but Jones, didn't really show a lot of on-field leadership last year...not being critical, it was only is first year so he is learning the ropes. He needs time to develop in the role on and off the field.

I like to think a little differently although I do agree with you. Jones isn't the leader that Grimes or Trenners was on field. Those 2 would get the structures right and organise people, while Jones leades by example. Thats the way I see it.

Do we need a vice captain?

Just have Jones plus whatever other needed (4 - 6) others in the leadership group - you know the names - Garland, Grimes, Jamar, Cross, Dunn, Dawes, McDonald.

If Jones misses a game here or there then you get Grimes (if he's in the team or leadership group) to be the match day captain. If Jones is set for an extended period on the sidelines then maybe you pick a couple of players as acting captains.

Not for me - how do you explain one B&F for Robbie ?

To me B&F voting is always looked at in a different light than actual best players.

Many on here are singing the praises of Jetta yet are expecting so much more from Howe many say had an average year - Jetta finished 9th and Howe 6th. Look at Demonland voting - Viney coming in 4th and not in the top 10 in the B&F count.

The voting is done by the match committee I understand who no doubt place higher expectations on the more elite players, conversely a good performance by a younger guy who may not necessarily dominate may earn some 'cheap' votes.

no excuse for putting babies in charge.

Those responsible should be ashamed

2 careers shot...

The alternatives were simply unpalatable at the time.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/melbournes-leadership-conundrum-20120121-1qbhv.html?rand=1327152211992

This Jake Niall article sums up our quandary.

The thread below reinforces the view that whilst most (including yourself WYL at the time) were wary of appointing Grimes, Trengove or both, they couldn't point to an alternative. Jones receives scant consideration. Others thrown up were Moloney, Jamar or Frawley. The retention of Green was rejected by the vast majority.

http://demonland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/29227-narrowing-in-on-either-grimes-or-trengove-for-captain/

We were simply in a lose/lose situation. If I had my time over, I still don't know which option I'd prefer.

PS WYL - Don't read that thread all the way to the end. You may not like what you wrote about Neeld.

The alternatives were simply unpalatable at the time.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/melbournes-leadership-conundrum-20120121-1qbhv.html?rand=1327152211992

This Jake Niall article sums up our quandary.

The thread below reinforces the view that whilst most (including yourself WYL at the time) were wary of appointing Grimes, Trengove or both, they couldn't point to an alternative. Jones receives scant consideration. Others thrown up were Moloney, Jamar or Frawley. The retention of Green was rejected by the vast majority.

http://demonland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/29227-narrowing-in-on-either-grimes-or-trengove-for-captain/

We were simply in a lose/lose situation. If I had my time over, I still don't know which option I'd prefer.

PS WYL - Don't read that thread all the way to the end. You may not like what you wrote about Neeld.

Aah yes My prognosis of Neeld had been obliterated by half time Round One!!!

I still remember the heavy sad feeling.

I was right about the 2 captains though...

Both of them should have had time at Casey during 2013 but were flogged because of captaincy duties.

I don't agree, he's had a couple of lean years and really needs to focus on his footy but he is good enough and I hope he proves many on here wrong.

Fair enough, mate. We shall see. Obviously though, I want to see a bloke who clearly loves the club succeed.

I'm not sure Cross will be playing a full season in the firsts. He may well be in and out of the side.

Dunn has established himself as definitely in the best 22 and I gather has embraced his elevation to the leadership group.

I gather from the training reports he is one of the most vocal and hardest trainers.

If Cross is fit I'd play him all year. Games must be earnt not given. We supposedly dominated the draft "again". How quickly we forget they're kids.

Edited December 2, 201410 yr by Al's Demons

Interesting in that thread there was talk that Grimes had a chronic back injury that would restrict his career.

Now he's always out there training full on, but he doesn't carry much weight and has been moved (correctly) to a half back role.

I've also heard a player say that Grimes puts in a lot of effort to stay fit.

I wonder if he does have to do a lot of extra work to make sure he's at peak fitness and also not bulk up in order to keep stress from his back or another injury.

Maybe there is something more to Grimes that is limiting his form and we just haven't been told about it. Maybe without pressure to play and play well every week that the footy department can try some different things with Grimes - resting him for some games, subbing him on or off, We focus a lot on the mental pressure that captaincy put on Grimes. But maybe that's overstated and it's actually the physical pressure that Grimes and Trengove copped that is holding them back now. Maybe besides the mature Jones, anyone who played regularly in 2012/2013 particularly in the midfield that was severely short for help ended up copping a physical beating.

Aah yes My prognosis of Neeld had been obliterated by half time Round One!!!

I still remember the heavy sad feeling.

I was right about the 2 captains though...

Both of them should have had time at Casey during 2013 but were flogged because of captaincy duties.

You probably were right about the two captains but like everyone else you struggled to find a viable alternative at the time. If you had your time over, who would you make skipper?

no excuse for putting babies in charge.

Those responsible should be ashamed

2 careers shot...

JT baby yes but Grimes not so much.

There was no cries of too young when the following year Richmond made Cotchin capt. The same Cotchin that Grimes capt at the Nth Knights and also in the Vic Metro team.

Then "Stevie J" is lucky to get a game at Geelong.

I trust my own opinion more than B&F voting.

edit: one then too many.

the AFL should just send you a text asking who gets the brownlow

Not for me - how do you explain one B&F for Robbie ?

To me B&F voting is always looked at in a different light than actual best players.

Many on here are singing the praises of Jetta yet are expecting so much more from Howe many say had an average year - Jetta finished 9th and Howe 6th. Look at Demonland voting - Viney coming in 4th and not in the top 10 in the B&F count.

maybe that's because Jetta has this underdog story and people want more from Howe because he looks like he CAN be better.. Viney gets the son of Todd votes and votes purely because he's young, and we like that, it makes us feel nice to have young players in the votes

the coaches study the opposition and the gameplan like their doing a phd on it, they know who gets what roles and who does them or not, they know who is carrying an injury etc

come on mate you're putting the opinions of the cretins on this board ahead of our actual coaches?

maybe that's because Jetta has this underdog story and people want more from Howe because he looks like he CAN be better.. Viney gets the son of Todd votes and votes purely because he's young, and we like that, it makes us feel nice to have young players in the votes

the coaches study the opposition and the gameplan like their doing a phd on it, they know who gets what roles and who does them or not, they know who is carrying an injury etc

come on mate you're putting the opinions of the cretins on this board ahead of our actual coaches?

I get all that but I just don't put the same emphasis on B&F's as others.

To me they usually get the best couple of players on the ground correct but then there is some more left of centre voting from then on down. I suspect that the match committee cast the lower votes around who is doing exactly as required rather than who is playing the best. I am bemused by Watts finishing as high as he did and find it interesting that the smacking the Frawley got from most on here - he finished 8th in the B&F.

It is just all opinions.

On Grimes - I like the way he goes about it but he does need to clean up the clangers.