6 minutes ago, picket fence said:

Macca, I went on record when Toupas name was first being mentioned as NEVER wanting him at Dees. He ran like a duck and could hardly get contested ball. Similarly when Neeld got the coaching gig I almost walked away then. Many on this site disagreed and history has now proven that some terrible decisions were made by administration of the time

So you got one right, PF

What about all the one's you get wrong haha

Tell us all about them!!

Seriously, when it comes to draft prospects and even after 2 years evaluation, we can all get it wrong.  That's footy

I once declared that Tapscott was a future captain, a year later he was delisted!  Ugh!

And our posts are written in stone (so to speak) There's no escape!

49 minutes ago, Macca said:

So you got one right, PF

What about all the one's you get wrong haha

Tell us all about them!!

Seriously, when it comes to draft prospects and even after 2 years evaluation, we can all get it wrong.  That's footy

I once declared that Tapscott was a future captain, a year later he was delisted!  Ugh!

And our posts are written in stone (so to speak) There's no escape!

True enough

19 minutes ago, picket fence said:

True enough

Hey but keep punchin', picket

I like the comments from those who stick their necks out ... makes for interesting conversation

Given the state of our club at the time, Wines may have flopped and Toumpas may have won a Downlow elsewhere ?? 🙄🙄

I’d also like to analyse this from another angle.

 

Was Toump going to be a better player than Wines? Unlikely.

 

Should we have picked Toump before Wines? Indubitably no.

 

At this point, I’d also bring up Toump (who was the very last high draft pick of the very dark ages) and Christian Salem (the first high draft pick of our rebirth).

 

While Toump may ultimately have gone nowhere regardless of what we did, he basically was set back a year in the dumpster fire of 2013. If I recall correctly, he was dumped straight into our starting poverty class midfield of that year from round 1 onwards. After struggling with injury, form and responsibilities he was nowhere near ready for, the year was a write off and if anything sent him backwards,

 

In essence, he lost one year of development; one that he would never be able to compensate for.

 

Compare that to Salo’s first year. While the team still was terrible (albeit one that was mostly competitive for 2 to 3 quarters), he was eased into the team initially as a sub. He played flanks both forward and back with lesser responsibilities than say Nathan Jones, Bernie Vince or Daniel Cross. 

 

While he’s on a half back flank these days as well, his role is as a playmaker. Back then he was doing an apprenticeship, he wasn’t a foreman from day 1.

 

Salo is also compared to a pick taken before him: Josh Kelly. Kelly most likely have a weightier resume than Salo, but would anyone give the club shif over that decision? Not necessarily as Roosy at the time was clear we needed match ready players immediately (Tyson), and Salo has been developed magnificently.

 

Life doesn’t work on hypotheticals. I doubt Toump would ever be the player Wines has become. But the regret shouldn’t be that we picked him. It was how we developed him. If we’d had Roos in place then (though it’s questionable he’d have gone with Toump in the first place), we might remember the decision in terms of the Salem/Kelly trade rather than how we view it today.

Edited September 20, 20213 yr by Colin B. Flaubert

2 hours ago, Jontee said:

Who the heck is Aidan Corr?

north melbourne defender - joined them as a free agent for 2021 and promptly spent the better part of the year injured

good key defender

28 minutes ago, Colin B. Flaubert said:

I doubt Toump would ever be the player Wines has become. But the regret shouldn’t be that we picked him. It was how we developed him. If we’d had Roos in place then (though it’s questionable he’d have gone with Toump in the first place), we might remember the decision in terms of the Salem/Kelly trade rather than how we view it today.

Toumpas played half a year under Neeld and half a year under Craig (who most people here didn't have a problem with)

His other 2 years were under Roos.  PJ had arrived earlier than Roos too

So the development angle doesn't quite cut it as far as I'm concerned as others like Jones, T-Mac, Gawn, Jetta & Viney all seemed to cope quite well

The biggest issue is the draft itself and why so many here seemed to be convinced (or were convinced) that it's not obviously flawed

Wines comes instead of Toumpas and he plays under Craig for half a year and then Roos ongoing.  I'm absolutely sure that he would have coped just fine

The issue with Toumpas is that he didn't cope well with the huge jump in standard.  He wasn't quick, he didn't have a manic attack on the ball and he wasn't highly skilled or clever enough

But hey, that's not a crime.  Plenty of others before and after fell away the same way

Edited September 20, 20213 yr by Macca

It's probably already been said, but if we had taken Wines, we probably wouldn't have had one of Oliver or Petracca today.

Similarly, whilst 2019 was a horrible year, without it we wouldn't have Jackson, and probably not have Kossie either.

Silver linings in everything.

 

1 hour ago, Macca said:

wasn't quick, he didn't have a manic attack on the ball and he wasn't highly skilled or clever enough

That is it in a nutshell.  He just wasn't Afl standard.  If you are going to be an outside player and you don't have speed, you need some other tricks. Whilst our development was garbage, I don't think it made any difference with this player.

3 minutes ago, Stretch Johnson said:

That is it in a nutshell.  He just wasn't Afl standard.  If you are going to be an outside player and you don't have speed, you need some other tricks. Whilst our development was garbage, I don't think it made any difference with this player.

And again, it's not Toumpas' fault

He didn't ask to be drafted so high or to be drafted by us.  Just a young bloke trying to live out his dream

My attitude has always been is that you win some, you lose some

The wheel turns eventually,  as it has with us

We won't be the last club to have close to zero luck with the draft.  The thing to remember is that bad luck doesn't last forever

Keep battling away, never give up and your luck will turn

But top level appointments need to be made ... the AFL installing PJ was the game changer

3 hours ago, Macca said:

Toumpas played half a year under Neeld and half a year under Craig (who most people here didn't have a problem with)

His other 2 years were under Roos.  PJ had arrived earlier than Roos too

There needs to be some clarification of what happened during 2013. I don’t disagree with certain parts of what you wrote, but the bit on 2013 was an eyebrow raiser.

If the intimation is that because the sentiment here towards PJ and Craig was (and is) positive that development must have been a given, then you need to look at both of the roles they played.

I personally thought Craig did as serviceable a job as he could have post Neeld’s sacking. However, his brief wasn’t to develop kids. In an better set of circumstances, it should have been. In reality, Craig was put in there to stop the place from imploding. Full stop.

I clearly remember at the time PJ coming out and stating he had a mighty task in convincing 13 or so players to honor their contracts in 2014 even with Neeld gone. Craig’s presence was to have an experienced hand on the till until we got our next senior coach. If he hadn’t been put in, we might have seen scenes of teammates punching on during the play. Hyperbole perhaps, but that’s how desperate things were getting.

I’m not sure how PJ could have implemented a development program as he was the CEO. His job was to get the right people in place to implement said program. That wouldn’t happen until 2014.

Where I partially agree with you is that Maxy and Jetta are examples of reclamation projects that worked (though they didn’t pan out until Roosy arrived). Don’t forget that Jetta was initially delisted after 2013. Maxy finally started to break out in 2015 (I was there for his turn against Geelong that year when he announced himself). However, that didn’t happen until Roos had taken up the position. I’d also add Pederson to that list of reclamation projects.

Ultimately though, I’m an empiricist. We can only go on what we observed. Toump got another chance at Port and didn’t make the grade there either. It’s speculative to think what might have happened had he not walked into a club that wasn’t a complete shambles. Maybe his physical and athletic shortcomings weren’t able to be remedied? However, it would have been more reassuring for mine if he’d been eased in. Then there’d be no maybes to ponder.

Edited September 20, 20213 yr by Colin B. Flaubert

Nothing like success....

4 hours ago, picket fence said:

True enough

To be fair on picket fence, he was on record as hating almost all of our drafting from about 2008-2013 and he was almost always right!

His mood lifted significantly after Clayton Oliver arrived, though.

So, just say we picked Wines...

Then a pretty fair chance we might not have been able to get Oliver down the track.

Yep, things were crook at the time but they've worked themselves out pretty well in the end.

If I had a choice of Wines or Oliver...I'm taking Oliver every time.

Probably time to get over the past drafting and celebrate what we have now.

3 minutes ago, Little Goffy said:

To be fair on picket fence, he was on record as hating almost all of our drafting from about 2008-2013 and he was almost always right!

His mood lifted significantly after Clayton Oliver arrived, though.

Thanks Little Goffy appreciate the support but as I have always maintained everyone on this site has and is entitled to an opinion! When I first saw Clayton Oliver at Casey fields and after having seen his highlights reel I thought Shheeeit I love this bloke already🤩FWIW I do watch a bit of footy and look at not just the obvious. Dazzle Davey 36 does it better than most and knows what he is talking about. I DO get carried away on occasions coz I just HATE to lose and I can be over the rop with comments but.... thats me. I enjoyed bringing Demonlanders Training reports from Casey and sought to enlighten and entertain in these Shizen times!

GOOD LUCK AND GOOD HEALTH TO ALL

GO DEES JUST WIN THE FRIGGEN THING😃

Fact is that the numbering system known as the draft is not accurate, never was, never will be.  The proof is in all the results

That doesn't mean that it's not a very good guide and it also doesn't mean that reasonable accuracy levels can't sometimes be met

But the draft isn't foolproof and can't be relied upon the way people think it should be relied upon.  It's a wait and see situation

56 minutes ago, Colin B. Flaubert said:

I clearly remember at the time PJ coming out and stating he had a mighty task in convincing 13 or so players to honor their contracts in

Are you sure this happened? 

Got any documentation or links to back that claim up?

I'm happy to concede if you're right ... I just don't remember him saying that and to be honest, he had the axe out as I recall

 

Back on Toumpas ... I went through all the posts and threads on the bloke and not one person here (or elsewhere) was castigating him until way after he'd played a number of games.  2014 was when things warmed up. 

1 or 2 might have gone hard early but that's too small a sample size anyway. At best, they're guessing

So it's a myth that he was being criticised from the word go

By the way, he only played in 4 games under Neeld and 3 of those games were the first 3 games of the 2013 season ... losses of 13 goals (Port) 25 goals (Essendon) and 14 goals (Eagles) Hardly the fault of an 18yo kid

At the time I blamed the senior players & Neeld and called for a cleanout at the club

And that's what happened

Edited September 20, 20213 yr by Macca

We should have picked Wines. But Toumpas has done what few of us here have done ... played 35 games of AFL football.

25 minutes ago, Little Goffy said:

To be fair on picket fence, he was on record as hating almost all of our drafting from about 2008-2013 and he was almost always right!

His mood lifted significantly after Clayton Oliver arrived, though.

He also gets it wrong a lot

Spargo & Viney have been the targets this year and he's had to concede because both have played so well of late. And it wasn't mild criticism either ... calling for them to be delisted and/or traded out

OK, he got Oscar right but PF will admit that he's as hit and miss as the draft turns out to be

If you were starting a team tomorrow would Wines be in your first 5 players picked?

33 minutes ago, Macca said:

Are you sure this happened? 

Got any documentation or links to back that claim up?

I'm happy to concede if you're right ... I just don't remember him saying that and to be honest, he had the axe out as I recall

https://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/86529/future-not-all-hell-for-the-demons

While it should be mentioned this is a puff piece with a big heaping of MFC spin (it is from the website after all), and I mostly chose it as I don’t have all afternoon to search for other media where he voiced similar sentiments, this is what PJ was saying at the time in most media:
 

"I've just got to convince people we are going to have a plan that is going to do it and it will be worth hanging around for," Jackson said. "There is nothing more important in the next three months than that."

The article showed that 3 key players were wavering with 4 others on the precipice, so I overshot slightly. Two ultimately did leave (Sylvia and Frawley) after Beamer and Riv walked the previous year. It’s no coincidence that this article and more inflammatory versions of it we’re doing the rounds just before Neeld was sacked.

In the ‘Sporting Life’ interview @dazzledavey36posted, he was unequivocal that a regular occurrence during his early tenure was reassuring distraught players, who were approaching him in tears as they realized their careers were going down the U Bend when compared with their finals playing contemporaries, that there was a reason to stick around.

Despite that, I believe my premise was generally correct. At the back end of ‘13, the aim wasn’t starting a development program, it was keeping our head above water.

Most of your argument is pretty cogent so I’m not sure why you are choosing this hill to die on (I.e. there was no excuse not to develop in 2013). The year was a total write off.

Another link showing the problems of the time:

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/watts-unsure-of-staying-with-afl-s-demons

 

 

Edited September 20, 20213 yr by Colin B. Flaubert
Added the extra link

 

13 minutes ago, Colin B. Flaubert said:

https://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/86529/future-not-all-hell-for-the-demons

While it should be mentioned this is a puff piece with a big heaping of MFC spin (it is from the website after all), and I mostly chose it as I don’t have all afternoon to search for other media where he voiced similar sentiments, this is what PJ was saying at the time in most media:
 

"I've just got to convince people we are going to have a plan that is going to do it and it will be worth hanging around for," Jackson said. "There is nothing more important in the next three months than that."

The article showed that 3 key players were wavering with 4 others on the precipice, so I overshot slightly. Two ultimately did leave (Sylvia and Frawley) after Beamer and Riv walked the previous year. It’s no coincidence that this article and more inflammatory versions of it we’re doing the rounds just before Neeld was sacked.

In the ‘Sporting Life’ interview @dazzledavey36posted, he was unequivocal that a regular occurrence during his early tenure was reassuring distraught players, who were approaching him in tears as they realized their careers were going down the U Bend when compared with their finals playing contemporaries, that there was a reason to stick around.

Despite that, I believe my premise was genuinely correct. At the back end of ‘13, the aim wasn’t starting a development program, it was keeping our head above water.

 

 

Fair enough Col, I now vaguely recall the events of the day but it was the number of players (13 or so) that threw me

So 3 or 4 of the high profile players wanting out makes a lot more sense ... of course, a higher number can be a consequence as a result of the misgivings of the 3 or 4 high profile players.  Players take sides or become influenced

The issue back then was expectations and what the draft could deliver in a more immediate sense

Those expectations were more tempered with the arrival of Roos.  For instance, we left Salem alone for Roos to do the developing.  We trusted Roos as opposed to looking for the player to be some sort of saviour

Oliver was the same ... we only realised how good he was until he was good (apart from a few who stuck their neck's out - again, sample size too small)

11 hours ago, Demonstone said:

Doe!

Or D’oh!

Yeah, that's the joke Meggs.

2 hours ago, Demonstone said:

Yeah, that's the joke Meggs.

Perhaps you should have been more pacific if you wanted people to get it? After all no one is the suppository of all wisdom and, for all intensive purposes, we can’t get all jokes thrown our way. 😈😎

Toumpas was injured for half of his junior career massive risk to take. Played a good grand final. The only reason we picked him up was because he could kick. Wines has always had doubters on his kicking.