Sport has always been a business it's just become a little more ruthless and competitive now. The days of loyalty are long gone. You should adapt. I find it very hard to understand that your attachment to the club is eroding because it has to keep up with the times or die. I argue that if that is your stance you were never as much into the club as you were into the idea that a club is about mateship and loyalty- it isn't. It's about flags. I couldn't give a [censored] what particular group of players deliver that flag, and what kind of environment that occurs in either.

Couldn't agree more.

My point is simply there is a major disconnect between supporter expectation and player reality.

You DC, acknowledge this but many on here don't.

I am with you 100% but to keep my sanity I try (with varying success) to distance myself from the emotional love for a player especially when it comes around to contract renewal time.

There is no doubt in mind that you and I and most supporters have much more love for players that don't wait until seasons end or explore FA options but sign up because they "love playing for the club". My affection for the game always gets worn down by players exercising this right because unlike players am 100% committed to the club - I can't be traded or tempted to by the lure of money or success elsewhere.

What I won't do though is look at a player like Frawley and hang my emotional bias on his actions and declare him a meh footballer who is conducting himself poorly both on and off the field. This is just not the case.

i understand that (and the logical side of me agrees)

i'm just musing on how this is just (another) part of a bigger change to the game that impacts on the more abstract side and challenges supporter loyalty

i know FA is a reality and is here to stay at least in some form

I know players now see their participation more and more as a job where they make decisions to maximise their payments as a priority.

everyone has their price and money talks

but.....no supporters loyalty is limitless or endless (and i'm talking of club and/or afl loyalty, not the players)

Sport has always been a business it's just become a little more ruthless and competitive now. The days of loyalty are long gone. You should adapt. I find it very hard to understand that your attachment to the club is eroding because it has to keep up with the times or die. I argue that if that is your stance you were never as much into the club as you were into the idea that a club is about mateship and loyalty- it isn't. It's about flags. I couldn't give a [censored] what particular group of players deliver that flag, and what kind of environment that occurs in either.

what a condescending pile of carp sd.

loyalty and emotional connection is why i am a club supporter, winning flags is only satisfying because of that. it is the desired result not the cause of my attachment.

Players have every right to seek the best possible deal for themselves as this is their career, and for many of them the only major source of income they are ever likely to receive.

Take emotion out of it, from a business point of view they would be silly not to try to sell themselves to the highest bidder.

Every time they step out on the field they are literally risking their necks for the jumper, so the least we can do as supporters is not question their loyalty when it's contract negotiation time.

Loyalty is a romantic notion, but that's all.

Do you not think a player, especially a one club player would not be looked after post career by the club and it's supporters.

Do not be so naive as to believe the rubbish about a player only having x years to make as much as possible as these players will have opportunities post playing that you and I would view as dream jobs and never get. Even players who are at the lower end of the pay scale but have been in the system for a while are on good dollars, receive the opportunity to further their education/trade gratis and make contacts in big business via club coteries.

When was the last time you saw an ex footballer in the unemployment line?

Players are well catered for not only during their playing career but also post career and to think otherwise is also a romantic notion.

Interesting though when you look at the Pies talls and compare them to ours. We need a Frawley type far more than them.

Cloke, Reid, Brown, Frost, White, Keefe, Lynch and Hogan, Dawes, Tom Mac, Pederson and Dunn.

We do now as a result of how things panned out over the last few years, our tall stocks could easily have been.

Clark, Hogan, Dawes, Tom Mac, Garland, Davis, Sellar, Dunn, Pederson, Rivers

If Frwaley stays we're probably one tall short depth wise forward, if he goes we're one short forward and back.

Some people hold this club to such a low standard.i know we don't have the best list going around but when did the possibility of winning the spoon become such an acceptable thing?

WGAF about a spoon.

The 'disaster' is another year winning 5 games or less...

To celebrate not winning the spoon as some sort of 'win' seems odd to me.

We have a terrible list - to finish last or third last - to make a distinction between 18th or 17th or 16th seems to me like a distinction a pathetic club would make.

We won't finish last, we will have to lose all our remaining games to do that. We have 2 winnable ones left IMO against Brisbane and GWS. Although saints winning their freo game has me ll twisted.

It would be disastrous winning the spoon this year, make no mistake

And we have already beaten both teams recently riggggggggggggggggghhhttt!

Do you not think a player, especially a one club player would not be looked after post career by the club and it's supporters.

Do not be so naive as to believe the rubbish about a player only having x years to make as much as possible as these players will have opportunities post playing that you and I would view as dream jobs and never get. Even players who are at the lower end of the pay scale but have been in the system for a while are on good dollars, receive the opportunity to further their education/trade gratis and make contacts in big business via club coteries.

When was the last time you saw an ex footballer in the unemployment line?

Players are well catered for not only during their playing career but also post career and to think otherwise is also a romantic notion.

Those opportunities will still be available to said players whether they are 1 club players or not, if they have the capacity to take advantage of those opportunities of course. My statement wasn't a blanket one.

Pretty sure I saw travis Johnstone at the unemployment line one day, but in all fairness that could have been a number of indiscriminate scruffy vagrant looking chaps.

WGAF about a spoon.

The 'disaster' is another year winning 5 games or less...

To celebrate not winning the spoon as some sort of 'win' seems odd to me.

We have a terrible list - to finish last or third last - to make a distinction between 18th or 17th or 16th seems to me like a distinction a pathetic club would make.

Who said anything about celebrating not winning a spoon? Finishing anywhere in the bottom 4 is disastrous. There's more shame in winning the spoon, at least there used to be, before things like tanking and draft pick optimisation theories started coming into play.

And we have already beaten both teams recently riggggggggggggggggghhhttt!

Winnable doesn't imply we will win them, just that we are in with a shot..

Do you not think a player, especially a one club player would not be looked after post career by the club and it's supporters.

Do not be so naive as to believe the rubbish about a player only having x years to make as much as possible as these players will have opportunities post playing that you and I would view as dream jobs and never get. Even players who are at the lower end of the pay scale but have been in the system for a while are on good dollars, receive the opportunity to further their education/trade gratis and make contacts in big business via club coteries.

When was the last time you saw an ex footballer in the unemployment line?

Players are well catered for not only during their playing career but also post career and to think otherwise is also a romantic notion.

To think otherwise is a romantic notion ?

How about to think otherwise is factual.

Whilst a percentage of footballers are fortunate enough to move into rewarding fields post football there are a lot of footballers left very short by the system. For this reason the AFLPA and the clubs are strong on trying to promote education for footballers whilst they are playing and are also strong on getting good financial planning so the way better than average money they are earning during their playing days can be invested wisely.

Football is now a full time profession where you are basically finished by 34 ( if you are extremely lucky) - with training regimes a footballer does not have the same opportunity to gain post high school education unless they are very committed as it means part time study/university patterns which takes enormous discipline.

I talked with an ex MFC footballer from the 80's on this very subject who said that players first priority must to be maximise their earnings as the fallout rate post football is very high and concerning for the ALFPA.

I hope this thread doesn't go down the path of crucifying Frawley and constantly pointing outs his flaws.

As we know journalists read this forum and the last thing I would want to see is journos pumping out articles asking is he really worth it off the back of a few peoples posts - and potentially reducing any compensation if he is to leave.

We have been arguing the same points for months, as I've said many times if he stays great! we need his maturity (no premiership side is made of kids) but if he leaves I am just as happy if we are well compensated and the club uses it wisely (not taking it to the draft).

It will be the umpires that completely turn me off AFL well before issues with greed and loyalty do!

I hope this thread doesn't go down the path of crucifying Frawley and constantly pointing outs his flaws.

What ? You mean it hasn't already ?

WGAF about a spoon.

The 'disaster' is another year winning 5 games or less...

To celebrate not winning the spoon as some sort of 'win' seems odd to me.

We have a terrible list - to finish last or third last - to make a distinction between 18th or 17th or 16th seems to me like a distinction a pathetic club would make.

I care. Last is last. I want to see us win some more games and if we do we won't finish last. If we finish last this year it will likely be because we don't win another game.

I have seen enough wooden spoons in my time. I don't want to see another. Ever.

Who said anything about celebrating not winning a spoon? Finishing anywhere in the bottom 4 is disastrous. There's more shame in winning the spoon, at least there used to be, before things like tanking and draft pick optimisation theories started coming into play.

I care. Last is last. I want to see us win some more games and if we do we won't finish last. If we finish last this year it will likely be because we don't win another game.

I have seen enough wooden spoons in my time. I don't want to see another. Ever.

As sweet dee says - the disaster is once again we finish in the lower region of the ladder - to worry about something so image related as 'last place' is pointless.

If we play like we did against PA in the last few weeks we won't finish last but our lot - once again - is set in stone; another season down in depths with a list so compromised.

Sorry if I don't see the added shame in getting the spoon - we have been spanked regardless...

As sweet dee says - the disaster is once again we finish in the lower region of the ladder - to worry about something so image related as 'last place' is pointless.

If we play like we did against PA in the last few weeks we won't finish last but our lot - once again - is set in stone; another season down in depths with a list so compromised.

Sorry if I don't see the added shame in getting the spoon - we have been spanked regardless...

Tend to agree rpfc

Hard to get enthused about discuss the relative rates of crappiness ( yes I know it is not a word )

For what it's worth (not alot), Robbo mentioned on 360 that a source has told him Frawley to Collingwood.

If true we won't play him anymore, as per what roos has said

Good riddance. He's useless.

For what it's worth (not alot), Robbo mentioned on 360 that a source has told him Frawley to Collingwood.

Robbo said that his source has told him that Frawley has committed to the pies.

What I take from that is he had made up his mind long ago (possibly last Oct) and given an indication to the pies that he will sign with them at the eos.

What gets up my nose is the crap he has come out with to try and cover his tracks. Must think we are all idiots and if true he will leave almost as maligned as $cully.

To think otherwise is a romantic notion ?

How about to think otherwise is factual.

Whilst a percentage of footballers are fortunate enough to move into rewarding fields post football there are a lot of footballers left very short by the system. For this reason the AFLPA and the clubs are strong on trying to promote education for footballers whilst they are playing and are also strong on getting good financial planning so the way better than average money they are earning during their playing days can be invested wisely.

Football is now a full time profession where you are basically finished by 34 ( if you are extremely lucky) - with training regimes a footballer does not have the same opportunity to gain post high school education unless they are very committed as it means part time study/university patterns which takes enormous discipline.

I talked with an ex MFC footballer from the 80's on this very subject who said that players first priority must to be maximise their earnings as the fallout rate post football is very high and concerning for the ALFPA.

Nutbean I think you will find that these days clubs encourage and organise for players to undertake post high school education as I was involved in this scheme for a brief time.

The AFLPA actually had a clause written that all clubs are to provide at least one day off per week where players are able to pursue further education.

Most take advantage of this and complete part time tertiary education.

Agree that AFLPA was/is concerned which is why this was introduced, if this is available to all and sundry please advise so my kids don't have to take out hecs loans.

Footballers don't cease to have the ability to earn once they retire they just have to live their lives in realityland, where they are mere mortals and have to live like the rest of us.

What gets up my nose is the crap he has come out with to try and cover his tracks. Must think we are all idiots and if true he will leave almost as maligned as $cully.

I agree with your thoughts except the Scumbag part.

Frawley has given us 8 yrs whereas scummy was always leaving from day one IMO.

There's a big diff between the two IMO.

For what it's worth (not alot), Robbo mentioned on 360 that a source has told him Frawley to Collingwood.

sorry I just dont give Robbo any credos

I'll give him hes just about 99% cert to go ( and my mail has Geelong )