On 20/04/2014 at 09:40, Forest Demon said:

Can look at stats all you want. The fact that a few other spuds couldn't lay a tackle don't make Jack's 'efforts' any better.

I never said that the fact that others didn't lay a tackle made Watts' efforts better.

What I said, which you are confirming, is that lots of people on here are blinded in their hatred for Watts and fail to recognise that he's not the only one out there who is playing poorly in our losses. From the way some talk about him you'd think he was single-handedly losing games for us.

  On 20/04/2014 at 09:44, Chook said:

I saw Jack Watts lay a tackle (if gently hugging your opponent counts as a tackle). After the tackle he fell over onto the ground, then slowly got up and started taking a leisurely Sunday stroll along the grass--even though the ball was probably 10 feet away and still in dispute. Does that count?

If those are registering as tackles in Champion Data's books, then doesn't that make the others who recorded 0 tackles even worse?

Again, I'm not defending Watts' game, as he was virtually indefensible today in his effort. But he was not the only one who did not work hard enough, as the statistics show.

  On 20/04/2014 at 09:44, Clint Bizkit said:

Another example of just looking at the stats sheet and not the game.

So you think it's OK that Jetta, Terlich and Grimes, despite being small defenders, did not lay a tackle? You think it's OK that Spencer and Viney, being in the majority of the game's stoppages, did not lay a tackle?

Obviously Viney and Grimes had good games today in totality, but the fact that they didn't lay a single tackle all day speaks volumes of why we lost. At least Watts contributed in that regard.

  On 20/04/2014 at 09:56, Matt Demon said:

Your delusional....

What delusions am I suffering from?

I'd argue that if you think Watts is the only sub-standard player in our side, then that's delusional.

  On 20/04/2014 at 10:27, Bailin Out said:

Bitter but optimistic? Realism? You can't see we are improving?

The suns are not proven? Egads! What rock do you reside under?

You simply repeated my post, wrote "egads" and made a personal attack on me.

If ever I have to be under a rock I hope it is the size of your pea brain.

  On 20/04/2014 at 10:37, Curry & Beer said:

Because we played pathetic football matched only by the pathetic performance of our opposition who kicked 8 more scores, all of them behinds

Arguably we missed as many easy shots as they did so inaccuracy wasn't all one way. We matched them for most of the game and after about 5 minutes they were 9 points ahead of us and won by 8.

They are touted by the media as an up and coming team, we are touted as perennial losers; they are predicted to make the 8 we are predicted to win the spoon.

No one was happy about what happened today and I must confess to turning the game off at half time in disgust, but it was better than last year when they looked so much better than us and I know we are better than we looked today.

  On 20/04/2014 at 10:44, Ron Burgundy said:

Totally agree. I am genuinely sick to death of the mindless Watts bashing by certain posters here.

It's boring. And it's not clever.

I expect every other club in the competition would gladly have him on their list.

Ron, that was an horrendous effort from Watts today, and sadly we have all seen it before. Why should he be exempt from criticism when it is so clearly warranted.

If he survives this week he wouldn't want to put in another display like that. His teammates deserve better and we as members deserve better. It shouldn't be tolerated and I am sure it won't be.

On the up side our bottom four were very poor today and should be replaced in the next few weeks. This should make us a considerably better team.

Sadly Jordie McKenzie is not going to make the grade, he just does not have any physical weapons.

  On 20/04/2014 at 10:38, Nasher said:

There's no such thing as what the margin "should have been", only what the margin was.

Spot on Nasher. It is a huge bug bear of mine when people play that game. Of course they could of easily (and should have) been well up at half time - but they weren't. And who knows what might have happened if they got say 30 points up? The game might have opened up and who knows e might have been freed up to attack and piled on some quick goals.

How many games have people seen where the better team were not as far up as they should have been and half time and then lost?

But also it would be easy to say if we had taken our chances at the end of the 3rd and during the 4th we might have won. We didn't and we lost.

I doubt thats the case Titan, not today anyway. Im not a Jack Watts hater and i doubt the people who have had a go at him today are either. People are right to be frustrated that he continually refuses to put in second efforts, his lack of intensity is deplorable, at least look like your trying

  On 20/04/2014 at 10:57, titan_uranus said:

I never said that the fact that others didn't lay a tackle made Watts' efforts better.

What I said, which you are confirming, is that lots of people on here are blinded in their hatred for Watts and fail to recognise that he's not the only one out there who is playing poorly in our losses. From the way some talk about him you'd think he was single-handedly losing games for us.

  On 20/04/2014 at 11:02, jabberwocky said:

Ron, that was an horrendous effort from Watts today, and sadly we have all seen it before. Why should he be exempt from criticism when it is so clearly warranted.

If he survives this week he wouldn't want to put in another display like that. His teammates deserve better and we as members deserve better. It shouldn't be tolerated and I am sure it won't be.

On the up side our bottom four were very poor today and should be replaced in the next few weeks. This should make us a considerably better team.

Sadly Jordie McKenzie is not going to make the grade, he just does not have any physical weapons.

There are several players who are currently regulars and they will go when we have replacements for them, either through other players coming back from injury or the draft.

You cannot afford to carry 5 or so ordinary players when your top 10 players are not in the elite class.

  On 20/04/2014 at 08:47, Seraph said:

Bunch of idiots here spewing the same old rhetoric about Watts and his lack of 'hardness'.

It shows your ignorance more than anything else. For some reason you think he's capable of attacking the footy like Jones/Viney, yet still want him to have the skills of a player like Pendlebury.

You get one or the other in the majority of players. There aren't many out there with both skillsets except for players like Ablett. He's an outside player.

Pull your heads in. He had one bad game and you're calling for him to be delisted. Pathetic.

I tune out Watts posts these days. Best to form your own opinion because there's just too much noise on what he does or doesn't do.

He was far from the worst player out there imo.

The sooner we get Riley in to show half our list how to play a physical game, the better. I think another few games from Watts like that, they should be an almost straight swap.

We need a lot more from Bernie. He was arguably the standout player in the nab cup, and hasn't been much chop since. He needs to lift next week.

  On 20/04/2014 at 10:41, RalphiusMaximus said:

On the Watts debate, I have frequently defended him over the years, but I just can't do it today. He gave us a glimpse early on with a pinpoint pass to Dawes on the HFF, but then simply vanished. We've all seen the bit of footage by now of him being bustled off the ball and simply conceding (presumably hoping for a free). He did that sort of thing far too often today. He repeatedly jogged for half-hearted leads instead of sprinting into the space to get some separation. As has been mentioned, he laid a tackle and then just sat and watched the contest continue a few feet away when he should have been back on his feet and chasing the next target. He repeatedly failed to hold marks that should be simple for a player of his abilities. Roos talks about his desire to produce a player-driven culture of non-negotiable benchmarks. If he's serious about that then Watts has to be dropped. You can't let someone fail at so many of the "non-negotiables" and keep their spot in the side. He needs to show his teammates that he is willing and able to put in when it's his turn, take a hit if he has to and get the job done.

very well said

everybody at the ground saw it today, he was floating around like a butterfly seemingly doing anything he could to avoid encountering a situation where he might have to get hurt. I was screaming out at him, but so were dozens of others that i happened to be in the vicinity of. There were countless occasions if he'd only pushed hard and been prepared to take a hit he would have helped us out, but he elected not to, he elected to take short steps and bystand everything in his vicinity. I have never seen a player at the MFC make such weak, half-hearted, in fact quarter-hearted attempts to lay tackles. Never. Not once. N.Jones and Viney embody the fighting spirit that we want the whole side to embrace, but watts , and a few others, are the antithesis of this philosophy. Pleeeeease Roosy drop this peaheart as a message to everyone or it continues to be a cancer on this club. You have positioned yourself as a culture-changer, well if there is a better case for a culture cancer than JW then I have yet to see it

  On 20/04/2014 at 08:47, Seraph said:

Bunch of idiots here spewing the same old rhetoric about Watts and his lack of 'hardness'.

It shows your ignorance more than anything else. For some reason you think he's capable of attacking the footy like Jones/Viney, yet still want him to have the skills of a player like Pendlebury.

You get one or the other in the majority of players. There aren't many out there with both skillsets except for players like Ablett. He's an outside player.

Pull your heads in. He had one bad game and you're calling for him to be delisted. Pathetic.

This is [censored]. Pendlebury still puts his head over the ball when he has to, doesn't hesitate when he senses contact coming, doesn't get pushed off the ball and give up the contest, gets good position in marking contests etc etc. Watts' game today was what was pathetic I can't believe anyone could think that level of effort is acceptable in senior footy.

  On 20/04/2014 at 10:44, Ron Burgundy said:

Totally agree. I am genuinely sick to death of the mindless Watts bashing by certain posters here.

It's boring. And it's not clever.

I expect every other club in the competition would gladly have him on their list.

Watts is one of my favorite players and I thought some of his work today in traffic was good. Yes there are lots of areas he can improve but IMO he will get there abs be a star for our club

Bernie's form has definitely dropped off. He looked like a superstar in the NAB cup but he goes missing when he needs to start stepping up and leading our team.

Strange game because at half time I was thinking 'this is terrible, we should be 7-8 goals down', but walking away after the game I thought 'gee, we really could have won that'.

From that perspective it was pleasing, because a Melbourne side of the past few years would typically have thrown in the towel at half time and copped a 15 goal belting. The fact that we fought back hard, displayed greater effort and IMO outplayed the Suns in the second half was a positive sign for us. We did miss some really gettable chances in the 3rd and 4th but to be fair they kept us in the game in the first half with their poor kicking.

Disappointed with our tackling and defensive pressure, particularly in the first half. After performing well in this area last week we just failed to replicate it. I think the Suns had 20 more tackles which is a bad result.

The Ablett decision was absolutely disgusting and killed any momentum we had. There was plenty of time left and we looked to be on top of them. I watched the Collingwood Richmond game last week and if that was a free kick to Ablett then McCaffer should have had 30 frees paid against him each quarter. In a tight, low scoring game to pluck a real softy out like that was disgraceful.

Ablett is a sensation though. Not one mistake all game. Put him in red and blue and we win by 5+ goals today.

One thing I always marvelled at Sydney under Roos was their ability to stay in the game when not playing well. You would see them get absolutely dominated in general play for a quarter but only be 15 points down. Their ability to hang tough and not leak multiple goals when playing poorly won them a lot of games. I can't draw any conclusions yet as we've faced mediocre opposition (other than WCE) but I have noticed a little bit of this in our play this year. There were times when the Giants, Blues and Suns were well on top of us, but instead of leaking 6-7 goals as we did in the past, we hung tough and stayed in the game. Now this could just be a result of the wet weather vs GWS, Carlton's ineptitude and the Suns' inaccuracy, but this is one thing I'll be looking at this year and so far there appears to be some improvement in this area.

I'll save my last comment for Watts, who is copping a caning on here. Rightfully deserved. He was beyond embarrassing today. 6"5, now with a body on him, 6 years of senior footy, all the talent in the world...time to take a game by the scruff of the neck against a young interstate side and help drag your team over the line. His softness almost belied belief. Even at times when it would have been impossible for him to get hurt, he still didn't go. Yes, he is an outside player, but there is minimum standards required for a footballer and he fell well short of these standards. His effort and intensity was disgusting and I find it very difficult to support a player that gives absolutely nothing. How can he walk off and even look at guys like Jones and Viney. Pederson has about 1/1000th of his talent yet made more of an impact on the game.

We need to be serious about building the right culture and setting the trademarks of the team. Watts cannot play until he demonstrates that he is willing to do what every single league footballer is expected of them.

I think most people are annoyed with Jack because we see the ability and skill of the man but we do not see the effort and determination to get the ball. When he does get the ball his skills are usually exceptional, problem is he gets pushed off the ball by smaller opponents, he looks around for free as if he is owed it because he feels someone has infringed on him, he has not woken up to the fact that the umpires are not paying all frees so you have to continue to play as hard as you can until you hear the whistle, just as Jetta who almost got his head pulled off without getting a free. People love jack but often see talent going to waste due to his apparent lack of effort.

  On 20/04/2014 at 10:44, Ron Burgundy said:

Totally agree. I am genuinely sick to death of the mindless Watts bashing by certain posters here.

It's boring. And it's not clever.

I expect every other club in the competition would gladly have him on their list.

I cut him heaps of slack because he has so many silky skills, none of our other players have, but today he struggled and for no obvious reason that I could see. I just think mentally he is not totally focused on the task at hand.

Ffs, Jack Watts wasn't the problem today!

It was our midfield set ups around stoppages, Spencer not doing enough to thump the bloody ball and the poor selections.

The quicker Kent, Garland, Jamar, Clisby and Hogan come into the team, the better.

Toumpas back in if he's ready and time to blood Salem?

Over to you, PR.

  On 20/04/2014 at 11:09, DavidNeitz9 said:

I doubt thats the case Titan, not today anyway. Im not a Jack Watts hater and i doubt the people who have had a go at him today are either. People are right to be frustrated that he continually refuses to put in second efforts, his lack of intensity is deplorable, at least look like your trying

It's undoubtedly the case that there are a stack of MFC supporters who can't stand Watts, even when he plays well.

Today he was abysmal and deserves criticism, but not in a vacuum. He was not the only player today to play poorly. He is copping an almighty serve from most of us, which mostly is warranted, but if people want to slam Watts, they should also consider looking at the others in our side who aren't playing well.

  On 20/04/2014 at 08:15, olisik said:

Whens Hogan back? its round 5 and he doesnt seem close. They originally said 2-3 weeks.

Heard today that Hogan tweeked his back at training. Word came from a reliable source.

  On 20/04/2014 at 10:27, Bailin Out said:

Bitter but optimistic? Realism? You can't see we are improving?

The suns are not proven? Egads! What rock do you reside under?

The Suns are yet to play consistent, high level footy over a number of weeks. They are unproven so far. This may change by seasons end, but not yet.

Just because we only lost by 8 does not mean we have shown real improvement BO. Today was pitiful.

  On 20/04/2014 at 11:45, jumbo returns said:

Ffs, Jack Watts wasn't the problem today!

It was our midfield set ups around stoppages, Spencer not doing enough to thump the bloody ball and the poor selections.

The quicker Kent, Garland, Jamar, Clisby and Hogan come into the team, the better.

Toumpas back in if he's ready and time to blood Salem?

Over to you, PR.

I think the poor players in our side cost us today, and yes Watts was one of four of five who contributed very little.

The difference is with the other blokes there isn't the same perceived lack of effort.

I can forgive Jordie Mckenzie who makes the most of what he has, when it clearly isn't enough.

  On 20/04/2014 at 09:38, titan_uranus said:

Actually, Watts laid 3 tackles. That was 3 more than Jetta, Viney, Spencer, Grimes and Terlich. Combined.

Another example of how people just see what they want to see with Watts, whilst there are plenty of other underperformers in the side who don't come under the same scrutiny.

How many were effective tackles and how many were hugs?

Ant word on how long he will be out M9 ?

  On 20/04/2014 at 11:54, M_9 said:

Heard today that Hogan tweeked his back at training. Word came from a reliable source.