I think the more important question is who is AFL "Ready" right now? (and likely to play more than a handful of games this year even if injured)

In other words, based on their history, who gives us complete confidence and certainty that they will be up to playing the game at a level required to match it with at least middle of the rung teams NOW? Who can we put on the park and know they'll be able to compete and give us a decent contest regardless of who they're up against from week to week and at least see us in the game for most of a match with a chance of winning?

I'll give it a stab....

• Nathan Jones
• Dawes*
• Frawley
• Dunn
• Garland
• Vince
• Howe
• Terlich

*Assuming he returns this year and plays more than a handful of games.

The rest are either; fringe players trying to find there way in the game, rookies or players who haven't truly convinced that they have made it yet ie., the jury is out. The only other player i had a question mark over as i haven't seen enough of him yet was Cross.

Excluding Cross, that's only 8 players from 22 that are put on the park each week who we could rely upon to give us a decent AFL standard contest. That's just over one third of the team. No wonder we're getting smashed against quality opposition and most teams find us a fairly easy pushover.

We need to find (either from current list or outside) approx 12 to 14 players from here on in just to be competitive against mediocre teams. And that's assuming we can keep the above (Frawley, other?) beyond this year.

Roos and Co. have a HUGE job ahead of them and we are at least 2 more drafts from putting together a reasonably competitive AFL unit.

Roosy's Rome wasn't built in a day. Things will take time to turn around. We've been crap for so long, it's difficult to be patient again. I honestly don't think we are as bad as we have played in rd 1 and 2. Injuries haven't helped. It will be a good day when Pedo, Byrnes and a few others you mention are forced back to Casey due to returns from injury by Dawes, Hogan, Viney, Garland and maybe even Clark. Add a new and improved ruck with a couple of gun mids next year (trades?) and we might just be very competitive.

Well, that my dream anyway....

Fantasy.

I reckon we've added some pretty good mids in Tyson (who I love!) Cross and Vince....but all this has done is prove just how bad our list is.

So, so many players not up to AFL standard....

I think that Roos is biding his time....an inexperienced coach would be taking a Bex and lying down right now....

This may paint a depressing picture, but probably worth analysing. Nothing personal against any of the players mentioned, just an honest fans opinion.

*By AFL standard, I refer to their capacity to get a game in another side.

I'm not sure this is the best way to analyse it. Kyle Cheney gets a game at Hawthorn. Bennell at West Coast. Petterd at Richmond. All 3 were deemed "not up to AFL standard" by the Melbourne list managers, and I presume most supporters, once upon a time.

I think the following players from today's game would not be picked up by any other club if they went into the Draft: Spencer, Pederson, Bail, Byrnes, M. Jones. A little depressing.

I'm not sure this is the best way to analyse it. Kyle Cheney gets a game at Hawthorn. Bennell at West Coast. Petterd at Richmond. All 3 were deemed "not up to AFL standard" by the Melbourne list managers, and I presume most supporters, once upon a time.

I think the following players from today's game would not be picked up by any other club if they went into the Draft: Spencer, Pederson, Bail, Byrnes, M. Jones. A little depressing.

They won't last.

Their form will fall away.....

I'm not sure this is the best way to analyse it. Kyle Cheney gets a game at Hawthorn. Bennell at West Coast. Petterd at Richmond. All 3 were deemed "not up to AFL standard" by the Melbourne list managers, and I presume most supporters, once upon a time.

I think the following players from today's game would not be picked up by any other club if they went into the Draft: Spencer, Pederson, Bail, Byrnes, M. Jones. A little depressing.

Hey even Shannon Byrnes could kick goals on Jamie Bennell.

If that were the case, he wouldn't have had any problems walking straight into the dismal side we fielded today, would he?

Yes, he was promising, but you can't call a guy who averaged less than 10 disposals, and a goal for every 1.5 games he played 'AFL standard and then some'... Not yet at least. Paul Roos isn't stupid. If Kent was as good as you always make him out to be, he would be a walk-up start.

hes been injured

Absolute yes:

Jones

Tyson

Vince

Garland

Frawley

Clark

Yes in all likelihood:

Hogan

Viney

A very hesitant yes:

Howe

Dawes

McDonald

Dunn

Terlich*

So 13. The rest range from suspect to nowhere near.

*may stand out because he doesn't play like he's constantly terrified of making a mistake

I'm not sure this is the best way to analyse it. Kyle Cheney gets a game at Hawthorn. Bennell at West Coast. Petterd at Richmond. All 3 were deemed "not up to AFL standard" by the Melbourne list managers, and I presume most supporters, once upon a time.

I think the following players from today's game would not be picked up by any other club if they went into the Draft: Spencer, Pederson, Bail, Byrnes, M. Jones. A little depressing.

Bennell and Petterd had played decent AFL games for us. They showed they could mix it at AFL level hence the second chances. Cheney showed he dominated VFL and was hard as nails. Clarkson took a chance because he loved the way he played and thought if he taught him to kick he might make a player. Hasn't fixed his athletic limitations that make him a super short key defender or a slow lock down defender but I get the feeling he is a good culture guy even if he's about as talented as Georgiou or less. The hawks are in a position to give the 40th spot on the list to Cheney for the sake of it.

Agree on Pedersen, Bail, Byrnes for sure and probably Matt Jones. All can get by in an AFL team as Byrnes showed for years but they add nothing positive. Given the strength of the other 18 they play with adding these 4 gives them nothing. It's where the problem is we need out top 7 better and our middle 7 better and our bottom 7 better.

Spencer has kind of impressed me of late. Completely unco but he's a competitor. Looking around at the back up rucks at clubs (Cam Wood, Dan Currie, Tom Derickx, Robbie Warnock, John Ceglar, Angus Graham, Trent West, Stef Martin) I'm not upset we have Spencer. He took on Cox, Natanui and Sinclair today and didn't get embarrassed. Right now he's top 5 B+F I'd say.

Dean kent had more than an OK frost year, he was great

Definitely AFL standard and then some

Kent has shown us a heap of potential, but he isn't a lock for me yet. I want to see him cement a spot in the side before I make any judgements. I will say he has shown courage and a willingness to work and has a very nice left boot on him, all of which bodes well, but we've had other players who had good attributes and couldn't put it all together. I desperately hope he does so and becomes the player we all wish him to be.

Absolute yes:

Jones

Tyson

Vince

Garland

Frawley

Clark

Yes in all likelihood:

Hogan

Viney

A very hesitant yes:

Howe

Dawes

McDonald

Dunn

Terlich*

So 13. The rest range from suspect to nowhere near.

*may stand out because he doesn't play like he's constantly terrified of making a mistake

I think you are pretty close to the mark here 'P-man'. I would probably push Dunn up into the likelihood category now and maybe Dawes in the suspect with Terlich. Cross would be a yes, gives us 7 at yes.

Yeah there will ne another large cleanout at years end. 10+ players are either past their prime or not up to AFL standard.

rjay - agreed on Cross. Didn't really consider him as an old timer and looking ahead. He did the jumper proud today.

I'm not sure this is the best way to analyse it. Kyle Cheney gets a game at Hawthorn. Bennell at West Coast. Petterd at Richmond. All 3 were deemed "not up to AFL standard" by the Melbourne list managers, and I presume most supporters, once upon a time.

I think the following players from today's game would not be picked up by any other club if they went into the Draft: Spencer, Pederson, Bail, Byrnes, M. Jones. A little depressing.

I don't agree with Matt Jones who was in our top three in the B&F last year and who is one of our major possession-getters each week. You are arguing that our football department who vote on the Bluey know sod-all about the game.

Good thread, and as was discussed before our first game, when our bottom 6-10 are as bad as ours, it is very hard to be competitive against good sides.

Trengove and watts are not yet to standard

Cannot agree on Watts, was BOG against Saints and a long way from WOG against the Weagles. In fact yesterday's game highlighted how much better Watts is than NicNat! NicNat is a tad more show than substance, and Watts, the other way around.

And Jack's efficiency is way above most of the team.

As for Trengove, I like many others felt disappointed in his showing yesterday, but the previous week he was OK.

At the moment, a tentative pass mark.

May I also say how impressed I was with Dunn yesterday and last week. He appears to have taken his game to a new level (less lip, more action). Last year most people on this forum had him as a list filler, this year, should he keep up the good work he could be AA standard.

Cannot agree on Watts, was BOG against Saints and a long way from WOG against the Weagles. In fact yesterday's game highlighted how much better Watts is than NicNat! NicNat is a tad more show than substance, and Watts, the other way around.

No offense but comments like this are becoming embarrassing. Natanui was so superior in his contributions yesterday it doesn't bare thinking. Stick to Watts being the better player if you must, but please don't use yesterday's game as evidence of it because that is ridiculous. Watts had a mare.

As for Trengove, I like many others felt disappointed in his showing yesterday, but the previous week he was OK.

At the moment, a tentative pass mark.

Nothing even close to a pass mark for mine. If anything he appears slower than last season which is significantly affecting his ability to compete. It's sad to witness what has happened to him, but he's not cutting it.

Trengove needs a good spell in the VFL, i'd rather see Nicholson or Strauss be told here is your chance, prove you belong or you're gone at the end of the year than see Jack plod along the way he is, after 5 seasons 20 touches isn't okay anymore for a number 2 pick hyped as the next nathan buckley, it's time to start impacting games.

I wish the AFL would let us choose 10 players to be safe and give us draft concessions for a total rebuild, this list is going nowhere fast

I'd move on Trengove and Toumpas.

Both are not the type of players that will take this club forward.

If Howe has any trade value, I'd move on him.

Delist Fitz, Bail, Pederson and Brynes.

Bring in some more kids now.

We need a clean out.

AFL standard is a subjective assessment so I am not exactly sure where the line should be but here is my list:

Proven performers

Jones - and absolute star and our best player

Tyson

Cross

Dunn

Frawley

McDonald

Grimes

Terlich

Watts

Howe

Vince

Viney

Garland

Jury Out

Trengove

Matt Jones

Georgiou

Toumpas

Spencer

JKH

Michie

Kent

Evans

Hogan

Salem

McKenzie

Clisby

Riley

Hunt

Gawn

Fitzpatrick - just

Harmes

King - hopeful

Spuds

Byrnes

Blease

Pedersen

Nicholson

Barry

Tapscott

Bail

Jetta

Lost to injury/Age

Dawes

Clarke

Strauss

Jamar

Sad and sorry list IMO. The missing ingredient is the list of players with 4 - 5 years on the list with only around 50 games who I dont think will ever make it. I am talking about Strauss, Blease, Bail, Jetta, Tapscott , Trengove, MacKenzie, Evans etc many of whom are early picks. The backbone of our midfield should be in this list but its not. We have resorted to buying a midfield.

More than half our list are not up to it for varying reasons.

Some due to poor development being stuck at the MFC, some because they're simply not good enough but are getting games because so many of our higher draft picks have been moved on over the years due to poor drafting and again, poor development.

Development and drafting. Drafting and development.

They're the two things that have killed us, and I'm still thanking Schwabb and co for overseeing the employment I the horrible recruiting department and coaching groups* over those horrible years.

We need another path to get back on track for the next couple of years, and it'll have to be more smart trading. We need quality consistent performers who are not sick with the MFC conditioning.

An example of this conditioning is the ever so popular Jack Watts. Now I'm not going to talk about the recruitment of him because we all know that's debatable and everyone has a difference stance on the matter, but if he'd been managed and developed properly, we wouldn't see him running around on the football field as if it were a training session. His lack of urgency and effort on occasions is still astonishing for someone playing at this level. A development problem. Something that would have been made clear to him as soon as he was drafted but wasn't.

There were many examples with other players doing other things yesterday but I won't continue.

* Bailey era

* Neeld era

I don't agree with Matt Jones who was in our top three in the B&F last year and who is one of our major possession-getters each week. You are arguing that our football department who vote on the Bluey know sod-all about the game.

That FD was sacked.

As for Matt, he gets to the ball a lot, he consistently fumbles his first touch, often gets pushed off the ball, disposal and decision making hit or miss and can't stick a tackle. I'm not knocking him, he works hard but is a good VFL level player.

No offense but comments like this are becoming embarrassing. Natanui was so superior in his contributions yesterday it doesn't bare thinking. Stick to Watts being the better player if you must, but please don't use yesterday's game as evidence of it because that is ridiculous. Watts had a mare.

Nothing even close to a pass mark for mine. If anything he appears slower than last season which is significantly affecting his ability to compete. It's sad to witness what has happened to him, but he's not cutting it.

Agee 'P-man', the Watts/NikNat argument is done and I would say so is Toumpas/Wines. We picked the wrong guys.

We cant expect Hogan to save us, he will take time. If you look at GWS, its taking time for Patton and Boyd the same age yet to play.

We so need a Dawes and Clarke to get back on the park to start with. But that wont mean a instant win.

Who said he would be our savior ffs?!? He was simply labelled a genuine afl standard player & he bloody well is that. Problem will be keeping him at our club cause the rest of the list sucks and he'll hardly see it up forward & when he does the ball will be sailing over his head cause our midfield still can't hit a lead!!

The fact of the matter is he's a helluva lot better than 90% of our list at VFL level & at training. You don't think that'll translate to AFL? He already is better than 90% of our list at AFL level. Thats as of right now and by the prime of his career he'll probably be better than everyone on our list. Anyone who says different is delusional idiot, kid who hasn't played yet or not. And by the way, the expansion clubs aren't scared to label kids stars before they lace em up for the first time, it's about time our list dealt with high expectations like the rest of the professional sports world!!

Can say bloody but can't say i d i o t?? We are weak as [censored] at this club, this forum included!!

The OP pretty much nailed it. I think Tom McDonald lacks the skill to be AFL standard. And IMO Howe is definitely AFL standard (although he has started the year poorly.)

Terrific thread Scythe, and a pretty good summary.

I can't believe there are still supporters stupid enough to defend Grimes, Terlich, Bail, M Jones etc. Must like fumblers, terrible kicks and 15 goal losses.

I would turn 25-30 players over in the next 2-3 seasons. The only players I wouldn't phase out would be Hogan, Jones, Salem, Watts, Toumpas, Dawes, Viney, Tyson, Dunn, Kent, Garland, Vince, Kennedy-Harris, McDonald and Gawn.

Trengove and Grimes are no where near AFL standard. I even think that pick 2 as compensation for Frawley this year would be overs and could be turned into 2 good players. Picks 1 and 2 could potentially be turned into 3-4 very good players, as Tyson and Salem will prove to be.

Just have to be patient and let Roos and Viney bring 25-30 new players into the club, and hopefully get 3/4 of them right like they did in the pre-season just gone.