On 30/11/2014 at 10:25, daisycutter said:

there is no info on the detailed records of who/what/when/dosage etc mentioned

asada's list could come from a number of sources including "suggested" supplements and dosages on the consent form the players signed and from invoiced details and on other non-essendon sources

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/hird-was-warned-the-inside-story-on-essendons-drug-scandal-20130821-2savu.html

where is your proof of essendon's detailed records that one would expect of such a large scale operation?

Look up Philip-Morris and other "Big Tobacco" and Clayton Utz and their dealings with documents. Very similar. 10/6/2002 Four Corners ABC TV.

  On 30/11/2014 at 11:16, monoccular said:

Look up Philip-Morris and other "Big Tobacco" and Clayton Utz and their dealings with documents. Very similar. 10/6/2002 Four Corners ABC TV.

It would be nice to tell us rather than pointing to TV programs from 2002. iview doesn't go back that far.

  On 30/11/2014 at 11:16, monoccular said:

Look up Philip-Morris and other "Big Tobacco" and Clayton Utz and their dealings with documents. Very similar. 10/6/2002 Four Corners ABC TV.

not sure what your point is mono

i don't doubt at all that essendon kept detail records

what i was questioning is where is the proof that asada have these detailed records in their possession

  On 30/11/2014 at 02:03, Whispering_Jack said:

Just as an aside, did anyone see Gerrard Whateley's hair on the Offsiders this morning?

What has he done?

Not only him

  On 30/11/2014 at 21:50, daisycutter said:

not sure what your point is mono

i don't doubt at all that essendon kept detail records

what i was questioning is where is the proof that asada have these detailed records in their possession

They dont actually need them. If they can essentially paint a picture by tracing events and other trails then they can they say to Essendon...prove to us that this ISNT the case.

This is where so many just dont understand how it all works. Its not a common law environment in so much as ASADA have to prove guilt..Its actually more the french system whereby the "courts" are investigating the matter and the'suspect' must PROVE they didnt do it

essendon are a victim here of their own attempts at being clever. They thought by getting rid of the evidence ( per se ) they could stonewall the whole thing but they have left behind a very detectable outline of their murky workings.

WADA/ASADA know what to look for....they'll have whatever they require to slam these bastards

  On 30/11/2014 at 22:33, beelzebub said:

They dont actually need them. If they can essentially paint a picture by tracing events and other trails then they can they say to Essendon...prove to us that this ISNT the case.

This is where so many just dont understand how it all works. Its not a common law environment in so much as ASADA have to prove guilt..Its actually more the french system whereby the "courts" are investigating the matter and the'suspect' must PROVE they didnt do it

essendon are a victim here of their own attempts at being clever. They thought by getting rid of the evidence ( per se ) they could stonewall the whole thing but they have left behind a very detectable outline of their murky workings.

WADA/ASADA know what to look for....they'll have whatever they require to slam these bastards

my post bb, was in response to post #10047 where wolfmother claimed there are no missing records

  On 30/11/2014 at 22:59, daisycutter said:

my post bb, was in response to post #10047 where wolfmother claimed there are no missing records

wasnt accusing you DC. just that many dont get it...Most of them are Essendon supporters btw !! lol

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-01/afl-anti-doping-hearings-to-run-into-2015/5931420

Hearings into January

  On 01/12/2014 at 05:28, sue said:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-01/afl-anti-doping-hearings-to-run-into-2015/5931420

Hearings into January

"The Joke of 2014" It is going to take them another week to decide if the hearing will be public or not.

Unbelievable this whole saga.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/asada-case-against-essendon-players-hanging-by-a-thread-20141201-11xqig.html

perhaps the thread of Damocles.

So if charter and alavi dont give evidence at the afl tribunal

And essendon players get off

This in no way exonerates the players.

Id assume asada would just go bang and appeal to the cas... where charter and alavi would be subpoenaed to appear.

  On 01/12/2014 at 06:36, biggestred said:

So if charter and alavi dont give evidence at the afl tribunal

And essendon players get off

This in no way exonerates the players.

Id assume asada would just go bang and appeal to the cas... where charter and alavi would be subpoenaed to appear.

You assume correctly but in the meantime, there's a lot in between your first line and your second.

I understand that both Charter and Alavi have been interviewed and given statements. The Tribunal would still be required to consider those statements and could draw inferences as to why those witnesses are now refusing to appear before it. Remember, the standard of proof required to sustain a verdict is not the criminal standard and the evidentiary requirements are not the same as they are in our court system.

  On 01/12/2014 at 06:55, Whispering_Jack said:

You assume correctly but in the meantime, there's a lot in between your first line and your second.

I understand that both Charter and Alavi have been interviewed and given statements. The Tribunal would still be required to consider those statements and could draw inferences as to why those witnesses are now refusing to appear before it. Remember, the standard of proof required to sustain a verdict is not the criminal standard and the evidentiary requirements are not the same as they are in our court system.

WJ, isn't the most likely inference that they don't want to be cross-examined on their statements which presumably are not in favour of the players position? So not being able to do so helps the players.

  On 01/12/2014 at 06:36, biggestred said:

So if charter and alavi dont give evidence at the afl tribunal

And essendon players get off

This in no way exonerates the players.

Id assume asada would just go bang and appeal to the cas... where charter and alavi would be subpoenaed to appear.

My understanding is that if they don't give evidence it actually helps ASADA/WADA case. As was said earlier in this post, it is up to ESSENDON and its players (and Hird) to prove their innocence as is the case in a lot of European law. Much of WADA's protocols have been constructed around Swiss law where this is the case. ASADA already has more than enough evidence from Charter and Alavi which is admissible in court to convict ESSENDON.

  On 01/11/2014 at 10:31, Cards13 said:

substances of potential.

I think that substances may be closer to the " Mark"

  On 30/11/2014 at 21:50, daisycutter said:

not sure what your point is mono

i don't doubt at all that essendon kept detail records

what i was questioning is where is the proof that asada have these detailed records in their possession

My reference was that (allegedly) the shredders at CU ran overtime prior to the hearings, and the judges caned them for it.

Seems the fanboys are carrying a last desperate rear guard action.

I wonder if the new penalties will now come into force ?

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/essendon-supplements-saga-losers-all-round-as-asada-saga-set-to-end-with-whimper-20141202-11ye5z.html

LATEST EURO TRASH HAIRSTYLE.

i EXPECT ALL THE SPIVVS DOWN PRAHRAN WAY TO BE GETTING ONE THIS YEAR.

I'm starting to think that Essendon are going to get off. Which seemed impossible after the Hird's court case.

Fairfax who have been gunning for Essendon the whole time and even declared Hird had been sacked is now saying the case is hanging by a thread.

ASADA's former Chef Executive is quoted as saying about the subpoena's “It is a high risk strategy because even if you could compel potential witnesses to appear you could not guarantee what they would say. It was an absolute last card to play.’’ If ASADA actually have sufficient evidence why would they proceed with this act of seemingly desperation?

  On 02/12/2014 at 05:46, Wrecker45 said:

I'm starting to think that Essendon are going to get off. Which seemed impossible after the Hird's court case.

Fairfax who have been gunning for Essendon the whole time and even declared Hird had been sacked is now saying the case is hanging by a thread.

ASADA's former Chef Executive is quoted as saying about the subpoena's “It is a high risk strategy because even if you could compel potential witnesses to appear you could not guarantee what they would say. It was an absolute last card to play.’’ If ASADA actually have sufficient evidence why would they proceed with this act of seemingly desperation?

Alternatively they could be trying to cover all bases - getting them to testify or even to appear but refuse to answer questions could just be icing on the prosecution case. We'll see. Perhaps.

I can smell a wet lettuce leaf

  On 02/12/2014 at 05:51, sue said:

Alternatively they could be trying to cover all bases - getting them to testify or even to appear but refuse to answer questions could just be icing on the prosecution case. We'll see. Perhaps.

But isn't an unpredictable or non speaking whiteness just as likely to be a win for Essendon who will claim that their non compliance is jeopardising their chance to prove their innocence?

  On 02/12/2014 at 06:01, Wrecker45 said:

But isn't an unpredictable or non speaking whiteness just as likely to be a win for Essendon who will claim that their non compliance is jeopardising their chance to prove their innocence?

Yes. If ASADA relies on transcripts of interviews or even sworn statements by witnesses who don't appear, it seems to me players could complain that they were not able to cross-examine those witnesses. But given the standard of proof required, that might not save them. Who knows.

If they are pro the Dopers why are Charters and the Chemist not being called as witness's for the defence?

This whole thing is a media beat-up . . they want you to read their papers that's all, they don't know any more than you or I (probably less). .

print or perish! Are they really saying that the whole case hinges on testimony from a couple of rogues? Pleeeease!! Essendon players have to prove they could not have been given banned substances . . not t'other way round. There is enough in the interim report alone to hang them all. They are G.O.N.E!