When it comes to top 5 talent, even top 10: attitude, confidence (arrogance even), and intensity is the key.

Notice I didn't mention personality or character.

I don't care if you are an arrogant [censored], kids can learn respect and proper behaviour - they cannot learn maniacal desire to win and attack on the footy.

With respect, you don't know what 'personality' is. To be clear, you've mentionned three factors wholly derived from personality - attitude, confidence and intensity - and then said that you've haven't montionned personality. That's like saying "mount panorama, conrod straight and peter brock...but i'm not talking bathurst".

You're normally excellent at this stuff; what is it with this area that throws you?

Wines please.

I still want Grundy if he is there at Pick 4! Would be mad too pass on him.

Trade out Jamar!

Jamar too Collingwood or Geelong could suit. Still had some value. Pick 17 or 18 from Pies!

It won't happen but I can only hope.

I still want Grundy if he is there at Pick 4! Would be mad too pass on him.

Trade out Jamar!

Jamar too Collingwood or Geelong could suit. Still had some value. Pick 17 or 18 from Pies!

It won't happen but I can only hope.

Jamar just signed a 3 year deal. He isn't going anywhere, no matter how much you want Grundy.

Viney on Wines: "I don't know anyone more competitive than Ollie, or anyone that hates losing as much as he does. That's when he cracks the shits, when he loses. He goes nuts and would do anything to turn things around."

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/the-two-of-us-viney-and-wines-20121006-276ao.html

I'm sold.

With respect, you don't know what 'personality' is. To be clear, you've mentionned three factors wholly derived from personality - attitude, confidence and intensity - and then said that you've haven't montionned personality. That's like saying "mount panorama, conrod straight and peter brock...but i'm not talking bathurst".

You're normally excellent at this stuff; what is it with this area that throws you?

Ok, I knew I was lazy with the adjectives...

But the adjectives are footy related: "attitude, confidence (arrogance even), and intensity is the key."

Better wording would be "professionalism at training and with his body, confidence on-field, and intensity in first, second, and third attempts at the ball in a contest."

I do believe they are outside of poor behaviour outside of footy and a standoffish personality.

Tired of drafting "impressive young men" at the expense of "uncompromising football players focussed on their football" is my basic point.

Please tell me if you I have thrown you.

Tthe two sides of the argument

PIck 4, Don't trade as we could miss out on a player of the quality of these past #4 picks:

2008 Hamish Hartless

2007 Cale Moron

2004 Richard Tumbling

2002 Tim Walsh

2001 Graham Poleaxe

2000 Luke Living elsewhere

1998 Ryan Fathead

1997 Mark Bolthead

1996 Mark who?

1995 Scott Bambam

1993 Glen Go man

1992 Andrew Governator

1988 John Macca

1987 Andrew Brock thirst

1986 Richard Angry son

To balance the argument, Pav, Lucas or Matera would have been a great investment at pick 4.

But as it has been debated in many forums high selections don't always transform into quality players. Who is best positioned assess the risk/return? Probably the blokes that currently have a job we are all envious of.

My opinion is that Melbourne supporters should trust the current staff to pick or trade as they see fit.

But if you don't; you can either overthrow the board, sack the staff and guarantee quality; or find an introverted hobby like building model trains.

There is no point following Melbourne in 2013 unless you are an optimist, or masochist.

I don't mind trading pick 4 for Daniel Rich ,has anyone checked out his YouTube clips? Elite foot skills , runs hard and can spread , tough courageous and can find the footy , has improved on dealing with a hard tag , he is also a goal kicking mid and can thump them from well outside 50, still only, 22-23 so fits our age demographic nicely , what's not to like about him ? In saying that though Olly Wines or Toumaps or O'Rourke at Pick 4 would be fantastic aswell !!!!

Jamar just signed a 3 year deal. He isn't going anywhere, no matter how much you want Grundy.

I don't care what he has signed. Dawes only signed last season and is being moved on because it is in his best interest. Might be in Jamars best interest too if we believe Grundy will slip too pick 4 and we decide too take him.

Martin & Spencer could be moved on if we keep Jamar. Jamar ain't that far from finished. So Grundy & Gawn would be our two rucks.

Our need is for players 5 - 7 metres away from the stoppage who receive the ball from the in-and-under players, who are highly skillful under pressure or when free and can either deliver with efficiency, or can run and carry. At the moment only Blease and Watts fill this category. Sylvia showed he might (oh please, please please!!) deliver in 2013. Dom Barry has been delieberately selected an outside runner and we need to bring in one more.

How many of the top line mids in the AFL would you classify as outside mids?

Edited October 11, 201212 yr by dandeeman

I don't care what he has signed. Dawes only signed last season and is being moved on because it is in his best interest. Might be in Jamars best interest too if we believe Grundy will slip too pick 4 and we decide too take him.

Martin & Spencer could be moved on if we keep Jamar. Jamar ain't that far from finished. So Grundy & Gawn would be our two rucks.

I give you a 0% chance of Jamar being moved on at this trade period. I'm not saying that we definitely won't pick Grundy if he's available (which I don't think he will be), but Jamar will be a Demon in 2013.

Yeah. Your right? Wines is not a game breaker, he is over the hill he's 18 ffs

Actually.... I am right.

There is more to a footballer player than a highlights package.

Clearly watching these players over multiple games you would see that Wines is a tough, smart young player with the potential to be a top inside mid.

While Toumpas is a game breaker, he can burst from packs, kick goals, and impact the game with less possessions.

I have seen someone mention Wines being like Matthew Boyd, who is a gun player.

Looking at Bulldogs players, I would say Toumpas is similar to Ryan Griffen, who in my opinion is a genuine star when fit and at his best.

Considering we will have Viney, Jones, Mckenzie and Trengove.... A player like Ryan Griffen at his best would really compliment the hard edge.

Edited October 11, 201212 yr by Demons 32

I don't care what he has signed. Dawes only signed last season and is being moved on because it is in his best interest. Might be in Jamars best interest too if we believe Grundy will slip too pick 4 and we decide too take him.

Martin & Spencer could be moved on if we keep Jamar. Jamar ain't that far from finished. So Grundy & Gawn would be our two rucks.

Neeld and co. just signed him to that 3 year deal.

It would take a reversal that I don't see them making.

We have two AA players at the club. Don't really think we have to get rid of them to be honest.

Wines please.

fancy that...someone called Burgundy asking for Wines !!

In order of preference (for me):

Toumpas

Wines

O'Rourke

McRae

Pick 4 is a keeper. Here is the last 6 years pick 4's.

2006 Matthew Leuenberger ... had a standout 2011, and injury ruined 2012. Will be very very good.

2007 Cale Morton ... hmmm a promising start, now on the fringe

2008 Hamish Hartlett ... a very good 2012.

2009 Anthony Morabito ... injury cruelled his start to AFL. Showed strong signs.

2010 Andrew Gaff ... all class. The Eagles are smiling.

2011 Will Hoskin Elliott... positive signs. Behind some other GWS rookies but had a few good games at end of 2012.

How did he have a promising start???

getting cheap no contact kicks by himself from the kickouts,,, (stats, mindless stats) hah. "useless as [censored] on a bull".

I could go out there now and get those kicks he got. so he can catch the ball when on his own,,, right.

Neeld and co. just signed him to that 3 year deal.

It would take a reversal that I don't see them making.

We have two AA players at the club. Don't really think we have to get rid of them to be honest.

We have two EX-all Australians at the club. I think if we sign Grundy and Jamar has another year like 2012, we will regret not trading him now and he'll be traded this time next year for lesser value. Really, Jamar has had only one good season. Regardless of when he was signed, I'd be looking at all options. We are still developing and plenty of clubs have only young, talented rucks on their list, knowing that they will develop with the team.

How did he have a promising start???

getting cheap no contact kicks by himself from the kickouts,,, (stats, mindless stats) hah. "useless as [censored] on a bull".

I could go out there now and get those kicks he got. so he can catch the ball when on his own,,, right.

People need to stop bagging everything to do with Cale. While he hasn't developed like we hoped, his first season was very good, probably the best of anyone on our list, and one of the best in my lifetime following the Dees. He didn't just get cheap kicks, he had a genuine impact and was being talked about as the best pick of that draft. I remember one game against the eventual premiers Geelong where he picked up 30 odd touches, but not only that, he played up forward for a quarter and kicked 3 on Scarlett, even out-marking him in the goal square at one stage.

The Cale bashing is over the top, and it's frustrating how violently Melbourne supporters turn on their own. While it's obvious he hasn't come on like we hoped, both in body and form, he had a fantastic start to his career, and to say otherwise shows you are either just attacking him mindlessly or you know [censored] all about football.

Hope we hang onto Cale, with a full pre-season it could be hit time to bloom. Saw a few promising things from him last year.

I think he copped the full brunt of Bailey's easy coaching which has resulted in his lack of development.

How did he have a promising start???

getting cheap no contact kicks by himself from the kickouts,,, (stats, mindless stats) hah. "useless as [censored] on a bull".

I could go out there now and get those kicks he got. so he can catch the ball when on his own,,, right.

No you could not. Your post adds nothing.

Cale Morton had a good first 2 years for a skinny kid. He showed a lot of confidence and ability. He has lost that confidence and his body is still wafer thin.

I think he is the best of his brothers (which is not saying a lot, granted) and, if Neeld thinks he can be of value, I back him to develop and work Cale hard, and get out that potential many saw after 40 games. A second preseason under Misson might make a big difference.

But if Neeld doesn't see hope, there is nothing more to do than trade him, as he has a contract for 2013.

is Tippett back on the table if he doesn'ttt go to Swannies and would he be good for us? I think so! This is why Crow's are so upset.

clearly a few of us need to take angry tablets before we post.. common now...settle

Use the 4 'n' 20 pie in the draft.

I'm all for landing some experienced players like Pedersen, Gumbleton, Ray and Thomas but we ought to be able to do that on the back of exiting players like Moloney, Rivers, Gysberts, Morton, Cook, Martin and later picks.

Hope we hang onto Cale, with a full pre-season it could be hit time to bloom. Saw a few promising things from him last year.

I think he copped the full brunt of Bailey's easy coaching which has resulted in his lack of development.

I really think this is spot on. I'm not sure that he's 100% to blame, especially taking the whole Bailey 'lack of development' era into account.

Lets see what Neeld and Mission can get out of him before we throw him to the dogs (no pun intended).

Edit: Holy crap I just realised my first ever post is one agreeing with Olisik. There is no hope for me.

Edited October 11, 201212 yr by Choke

I really think this is spot on. I'm not sure that he's 100% to blame, especially taking the whole Bailey 'lack of development' era into account.

Lets see what Neeld and Mission can get out of him before we throw him to the dogs (no pun intended).

Edit: Holy crap I just realised my first ever post is one agreeing with Olisik. There is no hope for me.

Welcome Choke. Worse things have happened than agree with olisik. I just can't quite think of any ATM........