Good post. At the Club Lunch on Friday, MN commented that on taking over, and following Misson's appointment, each player on the list was given a personalised sheet of pre-training.

On the players' return to the training track he queried Misson on where it went wrong. Misson alleged that 50% - yep 50% - of the list had not complied. MN mused that he hadn't seen "optional" written anywhere.

Which led onto some serious comments on buy-in, leadership and the dreaded "culture".

I warrant we won't be having this discussion in 2013.

Honestly mate, if that's right, that is absolutely astounding.

Sounds like a good few of them would have had their card stamped by Neeld waaaay before round 1.

Ross Lyon's stocks are through the roof at the moment. He demands a hard, disciplined, professional culture. And fitness in particular is a key component to all Ross Lyon teams.

Apparently, as soon as he got to Freo, Lyon singled out Pavlich and told him he was too fat and needed to get fit. Pavlich did so, and is now in absolutely red hot form.

And who did he desperately want to take with him to Freo? Yep, Dave Misson - someone he rates extremely highly and someone with whom he has worked very closely. With Buttifant, Misson is apparently regarded as the best in the business.

IMO Neeld has a similar focus to Lyon. And that's why he also wanted Misson. The fact that we now have him has to inspire confidence.

Many posters here are understandably frustrated with the results this year. But the performance this year is the culmination of a soft, unfit list that was built prior to this year. Neeld and Misson are now trying to fix it, but this will take time.

In short, Neeld and Misson are the solution, not the problem. Freo's rise this year under Lyon (in my opinion at least) demonstrates this. It's about nailing the fundamentals - and, over time, the results should then follow.

Neeld didn't inherent a list as good as Freo's, but I'm convinced he knows how to build one. Fitness and discipline are key components to that.

There can be no argument that Neeld and Misson do not know what elite level AFL lists look like in terms of fitness. Rather, the knowledge gap on this point seems to sit with some MFC supporters and (soon to be exited) players.

In two years from now, under Misson's guidance, this list will be a lot stronger and fitter than the one we witnessed take the field 22 times this year.

In the meantime, it would be good if some of the Neeld critics here would just properly consider these facts.

Last year we had a higher percentage than Freo. They had 9 wins last year we had 8.5 wins. Your sweeping statements don't make sense to me and undermine your whole post.

What's changed?? Freo got Lyon, we got Neeld. Don't sugar coat things about how Freo had a better list, It's wrong altho it has become the accepted norm.

Great thread...the best I've read since joining.. As a side issue I was at the G on Friday and the friday before that ,with W.Coast. Dont be fooled,if it isnt the Hawks then it will be the Swans.Fitness aside it will be 2 seasons and a new list before MFC should even be allowed on the same oval as the Hawks

Last year we had a higher percentage than Freo. They had 9 wins last year we had 8.5 wins. Your sweeping statements don't make sense to me and undermine your whole post.

What's changed?? Freo got Lyon, we got Neeld. Don't sugar coat things about how Freo had a better list, It's wrong altho it has become the accepted norm.

Freo had a longer injury list last year than anybody else. Most of the injuries were to their senior players. Check you facts before writing drivel.

Don't sugar coat things about how Freo had a better list, It's wrong altho it has become the accepted norm.

Are you serious? You can't be. Freo's list is way superior to ours and has been for years. The list they have this year is largely the same as they've had for the last 2-3. They have an elite regular AA, arguably the best ruck-man in the AFL - and definitely an A grader,a couple of players just below A grade level and another handful of players that would get a game in any league side. On top of that they have a core of players who are seasoned AFL players. Melbourne has none of these things.

Lyon would have looked at that list and been confident of a finals campaign. There is absolutely no way on earth that if he had gone to the dees he would have thought the same - no way. He must be spewing they didn't get Clark as if they did they would have been a chance to sneak into the top 4..

Last year we had a higher percentage than Freo. They had 9 wins last year we had 8.5 wins. Your sweeping statements don't make sense to me and undermine your whole post.

What's changed?? Freo got Lyon, we got Neeld. Don't sugar coat things about how Freo had a better list, It's wrong altho it has become the accepted norm.

I thought that when I read your post.

Are you serious? You can't be. Freo's list is way superior to ours and has been for years. The list they have this year is largely the same as they've had for the last 2-3. They have an elite regular AA, arguably the best ruck-man in the AFL - and definitely an A grader,a couple of players just below A grade level and another handful of players that would get a game in any league side. On top of that they have a core of players who are seasoned AFL players. Melbourne has none of these things.

Lyon would have looked at that list and been confident of a finals campaign. There is absolutely no way on earth that if he had gone to the dees he would have thought the same - no way. He must be spewing they didn't get Clark as if they did they would have been a chance to sneak into the top 4..

Add to that Freo are more financially stable than MFC too. I can't see why Ross Lyon would have taken the MFC job over the Dockers role if had been offered.

Last year we had a higher percentage than Freo. They had 9 wins last year we had 8.5 wins. Your sweeping statements don't make sense to me and undermine your whole post.

What's changed?? Freo got Lyon, we got Neeld. Don't sugar coat things about how Freo had a better list, It's wrong altho it has become the accepted norm.

Terrible post highlighting your underlying inability to comprehend AFL and reality.

Last year we had a higher percentage than Freo. They had 9 wins last year we had 8.5 wins. Your sweeping statements don't make sense to me and undermine your whole post.

What's changed?? Freo got Lyon, we got Neeld. Don't sugar coat things about how Freo had a better list, It's wrong altho it has become the accepted norm.

Freo's results last year were impacted by a shocking injury list. I have no doubt Lyon has had a positive impact there but a better run with injuries would have helped also.

Their list has ours covered easily...

Ross Lyon's stocks are through the roof at the moment. He demands a hard, disciplined, professional culture. And fitness in particular is a key component to all Ross Lyon teams.

Apparently, as soon as he got to Freo, Lyon singled out Pavlich and told him he was too fat and needed to get fit. Pavlich did so, and is now in absolutely red hot form.

And who did he desperately want to take with him to Freo? Yep, Dave Misson - someone he rates extremely highly and someone with whom he has worked very closely. With Buttifant, Misson is apparently regarded as the best in the business.

IMO Neeld has a similar focus to Lyon. And that's why he also wanted Misson. The fact that we now have him has to inspire confidence.

Many posters here are understandably frustrated with the results this year. But the performance this year is the culmination of a soft, unfit list that was built prior to this year. Neeld and Misson are now trying to fix it, but this will take time.

In short, Neeld and Misson are the solution, not the problem. Freo's rise this year under Lyon (in my opinion at least) demonstrates this. It's about nailing the fundamentals - and, over time, the results should then follow.

Neeld didn't inherent a list as good as Freo's, but I'm convinced he knows how to build one. Fitness and discipline are key components to that.

There can be no argument that Neeld and Misson do not know what elite level AFL lists look like in terms of fitness. Rather, the knowledge gap on this point seems to sit with some MFC supporters and (soon to be exited) players.

In two years from now, under Misson's guidance, this list will be a lot stronger and fitter than the one we witnessed take the field 22 times this year.

In the meantime, it would be good if some of the Neeld critics here would just properly consider these facts.

Misson was already on his way to us before Neeld was brought to the club. He didn't choose him. That's not to say he doesn't rate him though.

North Melbourne are a perfect example that the game plans that win games in home and away season isn't going to cut it in Finals. What is their losing margin in finals last 10-12 seasons 75 points?

Last year we had a higher percentage than Freo. They had 9 wins last year we had 8.5 wins. Your sweeping statements don't make sense to me and undermine your whole post.

What's changed?? Freo got Lyon, we got Neeld. Don't sugar coat things about how Freo had a better list, It's wrong altho it has become the accepted norm.

Pavlich, Sandilands, Mundy, Barlow, Hill and Fyfe, all 10 times better than our best players, I would argue Pav is a thousand times better. Some of these missed most of last season, but all are clearly centre to a far better list.

I think you are letting the raw statistics cloud what actually happened.

Freo beat Brisbane (same as us), Adelaide (we beat them by more), Beat North by 30 points (they beat us by 40), The Bulldogs (they beat us by 70 in a clutch game), Port Adelaide (we beat them by a similar margin once and then lost to them), Essendon (by a similar margin to us), Gold Coast (ditto), Sydney (who we drew with).

Freo beat almost every team that we did, with the exception of Richmond who we lost to later in the season having beaten them once, while also beating a couple we didn't in North and the Bulldogs.

Far more interesting is how they performed against the top 4 teams.

lost to Geelong by 11 (we lost by 186), West Coast by 30 and 1 (we lost by 104 and 48) Hawthorn by 22 and 51 (we lost by 55 and 54), Collingwood by 80 (we lost by 88)

Overall we lost to the top four by 350 points more than Freo, discounting 186 its still 164 points. This shows how much closer to the top teams Freo was, how much of a better list they were and how they were still way ahead of us in an injury ravaged season.

Freo's poor performances (usually coinciding with the loss of Sandilands) was being beaten by North and Richmond badly and amazingly smashed by us by 89pts at the MCG in a performance that ruined their year. After Melbourne won that game against Freo in round 13(almost the high point of the year putting us in contention for the finals) we won three games, over Richmond, Port and Gold Coast, losing 8 of the final 11, winning only 1 of the final 6 despite playing cellar dwellers Gold Coast, Port Adelaide and Richmond. Basically we capitulated.

Anyway, Freo beat basically all the teams we beat, were far closer to the top teams, had far more stars and far more injuries and were still ahead of us on the ladder. The only thing we had on them at all was our victory in round 13, and we failed to replicate that form for the rest of the season. There is no doubt Lyon inherited a far superior list to Neeld.

I love what your saying here, 100% agree with you.

I really feel we will see a diffent side in 2013.

this

From those that are left, those that are repaired,those rejuvenated, those that are introduced....... quite a different beast will reveal itself.

The OP is right on the money. Im not sure how many will agree with Ron now, but i suspect a lot more will during season 2013

Its hard to play "UP" footy ( or any sport for that matter ) when you smashed from pillar to post on an all too regular basis. Its gets to you. It gets to those players who are really putting in only towonder why some of their compatriots arent quite asssisting to their ability.

Reverse this and the sun starts to shine

Great thread, I agree wholeheartedly.

I've been really disappointed to hear the criticism of Mark Neeld this year. I've listened to a lot of what he's had to say and been genuinely impressed by him and his philosophy. We can compare 2012 to 2011 forever but I certainly didn't feel we were making progress in 2011, we went backwards. Mark Neeld is a tough coach who isn't afraid to pull people in to line and I think that's exactly what we need. This is short term pain for longer term gain.

Not for the first time Ron, i'm in furious agreement with you. I was thinking something similar today when listening to 7774 (and a bit of SEN) analyse the freo game. In short on both stations they were saying how Lyon had come in an straight away looked to turn the culture around, in particular in regard to players preparedness to the necessary training to get to AFL standard. Walters and Crowley were playerd who were said to have bee given an ultimate - shape up or ship out. Both rose to the challenge.

They also noted Lyon's mantra of play yourself in in to team or play yourself out and his complete almost myopic focus on team, roles and systems as opposed to individuals. Sound familiar?

If we had got Lyon i suspect he would have taken a very similar approach to the one Neeldl has taken. And to be honest i doubt he would have had any more success. Freo are a seasoned team, with many players who have played more than 100 games and some genuine star - and one super star. I for one and not surprised at all they are doing so well.

Spot on, and this is why those who reckon Neeld is a crap appointment are mistaken.

Any other coach worth his salt would've come in and laid down the law like Neeld did. Lyon would've done something similar, as would any of the experienced coaches that some on 'Land wanted.

When Neeld leaves the job in the years to come, another coach will come in and demand EXACTLY the same levels of commitment, fitness and effort. People will be asked to behave themselves in or out and feelings are going to be hurt along the way. Some people may not respond well to that. Others will lap it up and prosper, and they are the ones we want.

Not sure if it has been posted but it's an interesting read. We have all talked about players buying in.

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/7415/newsid/147354/default.aspx

Not sure if it has been posted but it's an interesting read. We have all talked about players buying in.

http://www.melbourne...54/default.aspx

All good stuff really

Some will and some wont, some can and some cant.

Rid ourselves of the wont and cants and invest in new will and cans.

Not overnight but it will happen

Good post. At the Club Lunch on Friday, MN commented that on taking over, and following Misson's appointment, each player on the list was given a personalised sheet of pre-training.

On the players' return to the training track he queried Misson on where it went wrong. Misson alleged that 50% - yep 50% - of the list had not complied. MN mused that he hadn't seen "optional" written anywhere.

Which led onto some serious comments on buy-in, leadership and the dreaded "culture".

I warrant we won't be having this discussion in 2013.

That is amazing MFN!

You really do have to wonder what's been going on at this club for so long and it's no wonder there was such a massive change in the leadership group. Needless to say I assume all the members of our leadership group were in the 50% that met their targets.

I really am looking forward to a team where each and every member buys into what the coach wants in 2013 and really applies themselves.

And as I've said although I'm not expecting a massive difference in teh win loss ratio next season I am looking forward to the lift in intensity and competitivness.

Not sure if it has been posted but it's an interesting read. We have all talked about players buying in.

http://www.melbourne...54/default.aspx

...." I didn’t buy in for the first five or six weeks and, as soon as I did that, I was able to put all of that behind me and work with the coaches and not against them."

Work with them not against them.... geeeee wwiiiizz that really tells a tale of our club and the players misreading where they were/are at. Onwards and upwards though!

There's been a few Sally Robbins types at the club I suspect

...." I didn’t buy in for the first five or six weeks and, as soon as I did that, I was able to put all of that behind me and work with the coaches and not against them."

Work with them not against them.... geeeee wwiiiizz that really tells a tale of our club and the players misreading where they were/are at. Onwards and upwards though!

I have heard Mark Neeld speak a couple of times, one thing the players will get from him is pure honesty and unfortunately over the past 4 years our early picks and senior players have been told how good they are and they believed our club was in the ideal position. To be told after 4 years that you are miles off and you have no idea of what is required to be a good team upset a number of players, some have responsed like Blease and full credit to him and some haven't, those that haven't will not be at our club in 2013.

The things we are hearing about lax training habits are hard to digest and it's a damning insight into the previous regime. The good thing is that those days are behind us now. The club will improve from here but a dramatic Adelaide/West Coast turnaround should not be expected. I would expect a trajectory similar to the one that Richmond is on.

Recent times at teh club remind me of building/renovating. You can come into a job having done as much inspection and planning as you can only to be be met with those "surprises" that we all know. They being where things are just a bit/lot worse than you anticpated and you then realise you have a lot , LOT , more work ahead just to get to the point where you can start the 'new' work.

In Real Estate speak Melbourne was a "renovators delight"........ in the trade its a D9 !!!

That article is fantastic to read.

I had heard the negative parts of the story so that didn't shock me.

It's good to see that Sam has realised that we have brought in these coaches and sport science people to make them better at their day job and not to just run them into the ground.

He was quite good for a few months and it is good to read a very open piece like that and good to hear that a confident player has swallowed a bit of pride, worked hard, and kept his confidence.

That article is fantastic to read.

I had heard the negative parts of the story so that didn't shock me.

It's good to see that Sam has realised that we have brought in these coaches and sport science people to make them better at their day job and not to just run them into the ground.

He was quite good for a few months and it is good to read a very open piece like that and good to hear that a confident player has swallowed a bit of pride, worked hard, and kept his confidence.

The article makes me believe in neeld even more. If players buy in to an elite program then the only way is up. Neeld is trying to get the best out of the players and in doing so it will weed out the players who just want to cruise along. This program has to be good for our draftee's as well. Hopefully we can see some impact from first year players next year.