I'll tell you what annoys me...

[titan_uranus 22,731]

Good OP.

Gibbs is as soft as Watts is but no one cares because he generally avoids having to go into any contests because Murphy, Judd, Carrazzo and Simpson do that for him, leaving Gibbs to mop up across half back.

At Melbourne, there's nowhere to hide.

The biggest thing holding Watts back is people's ridiculous expectations, benchmarks, comparisons and criticisms.

[rjay 24,038]

He looks good in defence.

I would have thought a couple of non-negotiables playing AFL footy (and earning $100+k) is possibly attacking contests, definitely attacking the ball. Bail gave him a [censored] kick across goal yesterday, but to see him back away from the ball - instead of running into it - because he sensed Mitch Robinson coming was downright awful.

It was a lovely little painful moment because what Jack lacks is what Mitch Robinson has in spades.

Don't believe the hype about Mitch, he picks and chooses too. A few weeks ago running with the filight I would estimate he pulled back to about 50% when the opposition player was coming the other way for a marking contest. Probably a good move that saved him from some cracked ribs but not the move of someone like a Selwood who would have gone at all costs.

[Ricky P 757]

Jack's played well in the last two weeks. He's coming along well and will be a very good player.

To be honest, he turned the corner last year and became a good player for us. This whole question over his value is just a media beat-up that some supporters have bought into.

Yes, sometimes he doesn't go as hard as he should, but often he does. To be honest, I was pretty soft in my early twenties (at a much, much, much, much lower level).

This Carlton moron near me yesterday kept saying, 'Get a kick, Jack' every time he got it. It was funny how many times he had to say it throughout the day!

[Hannibal 5,814]

...blokes like Watts copping all the flack, despite clearly making progress. Then you've got a guy like Kruezer, who is consistently hailed by Carlton fans (at least the ones I know) and some press, as an A-grader. One of the most ineffective and overrated players in the competition. Though, as I tweeted Emma Quayle the other day, he escapes criticism. Then there's another guy - Bryce Gibbs - as soft as butter, but it's Watts who is under the microscope every time (apparently the commentators on TV were into him today).

I'm not saying we can't question someone like Watts' development, but don't get sucked in by all the media hyperbole. All it demonstrates is a lack of intelligence and foresight. In Jack's case, the media attention is particularly severe. There's no doubt Jack needs to improve on his hardness at the contest, but his decision-making and disposal are usually right on the money. He is class and with the addition of toughness, his ability would be unquestioned.

PS. Mods - I have no idea if this warrants a topic of its own, but I thought I'd share it, nevertheless.

Edit. Spelling.

You know what annoys me ? Melbourne fans and their bias. You call Gibbs out for being "as soft as butter" when Watts is just as soft. Gibbs has copped plenty of flak for it too, but Watts gets highlighted because he's been asked to play a position on the ground that requires the hardest edge in the game. And he's been found wanting. There's no position on the ground that requires more courage, or physicality than CHF. Gibbs has played virtually his entire career in the backline, where one isn't as exposed in the hardness stakes. You still get found out, and he has, but it's far easier when you're playing behind the ball. Watts' lack of physicality in marking contests - and in plenty of cases deciding not to enter particular contests - is the reason he gets exposed and scrutinised more than Gibbs. Gibbs doesn't get the ball kicked on his head and when he does he only needs to spoil. Watts is 6'4" and has a different set of expectations to Gibbs, because he's been groomed as a CHF. Why do you think Watts is far more comfortable in the backline ? It's because it's easier. And in the last quarter when Watts was forward as soon he had a ball kicked on his head he chose not to go.

The bottom line is that Watts likes playing the game on his terms. He needs to learn what's required to help his team and club. He needs to stop picking and choosing. Let's hope he can. If he does, past players and media experts will acknowledge his efforts. But until then some Melbourne supporters can cry and whine at his treatment. I cry and whine that we didn't get the key forward we hoped and needed at the draft table.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Ben-Hur

[Dr. Mubutu 694]

Just quietly, the game can't be all that easy in the Melbourne back line at the moment.....

[Hannibal 5,814]

Just quietly, the game can't be all that easy in the Melbourne back line at the moment.....

Playing in any back-line is far easier than playing in the forward line.

Why do you reckon the Matty Warnocks and Zac Dawsons of this world aren't forwards ?

[Binmans PA 26,469]

Don't believe the hype about Mitch, he picks and chooses too. A few weeks ago running with the filight I would estimate he pulled back to about 50% when the opposition player was coming the other way for a marking contest. Probably a good move that saved him from some cracked ribs but not the move of someone like a Selwood who would have gone at all costs.

He had to go yesterday. He'd set the bar last year with those infamous comments.

[Binmans PA 26,469]

You know what annoys me ? Melbourne fans and their bias. You call Gibbs out for being "as soft as butter" when Watts is just as soft.

That was quite a substantial amount of my original point. Without sounding like too much of a dick, instead of picking and choosing what you want from a post to suit your own opinion, read the entire thing. I said Jack needed to improve on his physicality, but what annoyed me about his situation was those that escape criticism at other clubs for doing exactly the same thing.

Furthermore, I'm not sure I agree with the assertion that the backline is any less tough than the forwardline. In fact, if anything I'd claim it's the complete opposite. Far tougher to be a defender in modern footy than it is to be a forward. The rules are catered towards forwards.

Finally, what good is it for MFC supporters to add fuel to the media fire? Who's that actually going to help? It's up to the coaches to get the best out of Jack. I believe he'll get there with his physicality. Neeld won't allow any other approach.

Edit. typo

Edited May 28, 2012 by AdamFarr

[Demon17 4,634]

..

I think your probably right. Watts is getting a lot of the ball so more posessions may mean more mistakes by default. he did some great things but some silly things.

I wne tto the Sydney game and the team's performanace against Carlton for 3 1/4's was like a totoally different team was on the ground.

Watts efferts in Sydney and agian against Carlton shows he IS coming along, and Neeld dropping him for a few weeks was just what he needed.,He does still make the 3rd decison instead of first, but that will come, and he is clearly being put into the middle of the action to imporve this.

I was buoyed by what I saw to 3/4 time.

[Hannibal 5,814]

Furthermore, I'm not sure I agree with the assertion that the backline is any less tough than the forwardline. In fact, if anything I'd claim it's the complete opposite. Far tougher to be a defender in modern footy than it is to be a forward. The rules are catered towards forwards.

You're kidding, right ? FMD. A key forward is trying to instigate, while a backman simply wants to negate. A key forward is trying to mark while in front, while a backman is merely trying to spoil. A key forward exposes his ribs and midrift while trying to mark, while a backman comes over the top from behind, the side, or even in front - and not always with their eyes on the ball. A key forward invariably gets a fist in the back of his head or ear in a poor spoiling attempt - often deliberate. A CHF even has his own full forward and that forward's opponent/s bearing down on him. There's no more unprotected position on the ground than CHF. And Watts has struggled with that positions physical requirements. It's a position that requires tremendous courage. I'm hoping/expecting that with a bigger body and more confidence Watts can will himself to compete far better than he does. In time he'll attack marking contests instead of spectating. In time he'll believe he can take that mark rather than put one arm in the air and have his eyes closed, because his front is unprotected. Competing for a high contested mark as a forward is one of the elements of footy that tests your courage the most.

If you think it's more physically intimidating, or demanding being a backman then it's little wonder you don't understand why the football media and experts are targetting him. No disrespect, but many of you just don't understand footy.

[Sir Why You Little 34,819]

Much harder to be a forward than a backmen. No disrespect to any of our defenders.

[tarzan16 40]

what annoys me is the unfair flak Neeld is getting, Parkin got it 100% right on fox footy, never in his 55yrs of being in the game has he seen a club or a coach go through what we and neeld have as a club, jimmy, sponsors, new regime etc, and the press should be ashamed. although our players effort do leave us open to attack. and also, we need to stop defending Jack Watts, Bootsma is 40kg wet and he has more grunt and courage already, 2 GAMES IN!!! Jack is not doing enough, i dont care if he has 140 touches a game, if only once he puts his head over the ball and attacks the footy, every melbourne fan would be happy. but he is not alone. our day will come, the panic is starting to set in as unfortunatley the press have power. the chief said it, when the hawks were going through similar they batoned the hatches, took the flak and kept with the game plan, we will do the same. go dees

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,533]

what annoys me is the unfair flak Neeld is getting, Parkin got it 100% right on fox footy, never in his 55yrs of being in the game has he seen a club or a coach go through what we and neeld have as a club, jimmy, sponsors, new regime etc, and the press should be ashamed. although our players effort do leave us open to attack. and also, we need to stop defending Jack Watts, Bootsma is 40kg wet and he has more grunt and courage already, 2 GAMES IN!!! Jack is not doing enough, i dont care if he has 140 touches a game, if only once he puts his head over the ball and attacks the footy, every melbourne fan would be happy. but he is not alone. our day will come, the panic is starting to set in as unfortunatley the press have power. the chief said it, when the hawks were going through similar they batoned the hatches, took the flak and kept with the game plan, we will do the same. go dees

You need a new keyboard. You're 'shift' key isn't working most of the time.

Which is my way of saying I believe posters should take the time to write properly. But then, maybe I'm just old fashioned...or just old.

[hardtack 10,129]

A key forward exposes his ribs and midrift while trying to mark, while a backman comes over the top from behind, the side, or even in front - and not always with their eyes on the ball.

Tell that to Rivers who regularly puts his body on the line. It is possible to argue that Neitz only became the forward he was because of his "apprenticeship" in the back line where he could develop some genuine hardness... hopefully, that is their thinking with Watts.

[Hannibal 5,814]

You need a new keyboard. You're 'shift' key isn't working most of the time.

Which is my way of saying I believe posters should take the time to write properly. But then, maybe I'm just old fashioned...or just old.

Hmmm.

[Hannibal 5,814]

Tell that to Rivers who regularly puts his body on the line. It is possible to argue that Neitz only became the forward he was because of his "apprenticeship" in the back line where he could develop some genuine hardness... hopefully, that is their thinking with Watts.

All AFL players put their body on the line. Clearly it's far more physically demanding when you're a key forward and clearly we're discussing degrees.

Btw, a young skinny David Neitz always had a crack. But yes, plenty of players started in defence - Lyon, Dunstall, Lynch, Gehrig, Hall ... It's a great way to learn how the star forwards play the game. How hard they work. How they create space for themselves. How they do multiple leads. How they work with their other forwards.

EDIT: Lyon started as a forward, but then went back and was very good when at CHB. In fact, he represented Victoria as a CHB.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Ben-Hur

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,533]

Hmmm.

Touche, good pick up and I'm suitably embarrassed.

(And I know there should be an accent on the e in 'touche'. I just don't know how to do it.)

[Cheesecake 92]

You're kidding, right ? FMD. A key forward is trying to instigate, while a backman simply wants to negate. A key forward is trying to mark while in front, while a backman is merely trying to spoil. A key forward exposes his ribs and midrift while trying to mark, while a backman comes over the top from behind, the side, or even in front - and not always with their eyes on the ball. A key forward invariably gets a fist in the back of his head or ear in a poor spoiling attempt - often deliberate. A CHF even has his own full forward and that forward's opponent/s bearing down on him. There's no more unprotected position on the ground than CHF. And Watts has struggled with that positions physical requirements. It's a position that requires tremendous courage. I'm hoping/expecting that with a bigger body and more confidence Watts can will himself to compete far better than he does. In time he'll attack marking contests instead of spectating. In time he'll believe he can take that mark rather than put one arm in the air and have his eyes closed, because his front is unprotected. Competing for a high contested mark as a forward is one of the elements of footy that tests your courage the most.

If you think it's more physically intimidating, or demanding being a backman then it's little wonder you don't understand why the football media and experts are targetting him. No disrespect, but many of you just don't understand footy.

And a forward:

- gets the ball kicked to his advantage, most of the time.

- can allow a turn over without it probably resulting in a score against.

- has overly sensitive umpires granting him ridiculous free kicks all the time,for gentle hands in the back, hands laid gently over their shoulder, or a defender taking his eyes off the ball for a millisecond.

Playing forward and back are both equally difficult in today's game. Different skill sets. Some players skills make them suited to one, some the other. Some really good players, both.

And, adding 'no disrespect' to your last line, doesn't make it any less condescending.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

What annoys me is not the apparent and regular need on here, by some posters to dissect the FD, the playing list or our relative ability or lack thereof:

What annoys me is that my football club seems to have gone missing. What annoys me is what seems to be an inability or lack of want to play together and support a team mate. A monotonous regularity, where even the most basic of skill errors occurs. Missing targets, hand balling direct to an opponent, fumble after fumble, no intent on getting your head over the ball, chasing tail all day, no spread and carry, no-one presenting a target, no-one at the feet of the big forwards, no clear zone or path out of the back line on kick outs and what seems to be a want to save a game, rather than win one.

Analyse a lack of ability all you like, blame whoever you choose, but in my 48 years of following this club, I have never seen worse – and believe me, I, as others, endured some pretty lean times over that 48 year period. That’s what annoys me and I want my footy club back.

[Hannibal 5,814]

And a forward:

- gets the ball kicked to his advantage, most of the time.

- can allow a turn over without it probably resulting in a score against.

- has overly sensitive umpires granting him ridiculous free kicks all the time,for gentle hands in the back, hands laid gently over their shoulder, or a defender taking his eyes off the ball for a millisecond.

Playing forward and back are both equally difficult in today's game. Different skill sets. Some players skills make them suited to one, some the other. Some really good players, both.

And, adding 'no disrespect' to your last line, doesn't make it any less condescending.

i I was discussing the different physical demands

ii No, it's more difficult to impact games regularly as a key forward

iii I know.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Ben-Hur

[Binmans PA 26,469]

You're kidding, right ? FMD. A key forward is trying to instigate, while a backman simply wants to negate. A key forward is trying to mark while in front, while a backman is merely trying to spoil. A key forward exposes his ribs and midrift while trying to mark, while a backman comes over the top from behind, the side, or even in front - and not always with their eyes on the ball. A key forward invariably gets a fist in the back of his head or ear in a poor spoiling attempt - often deliberate. A CHF even has his own full forward and that forward's opponent/s bearing down on him. There's no more unprotected position on the ground than CHF. And Watts has struggled with that positions physical requirements. It's a position that requires tremendous courage. I'm hoping/expecting that with a bigger body and more confidence Watts can will himself to compete far better than he does. In time he'll attack marking contests instead of spectating. In time he'll believe he can take that mark rather than put one arm in the air and have his eyes closed, because his front is unprotected. Competing for a high contested mark as a forward is one of the elements of footy that tests your courage the most.

If you think it's more physically intimidating, or demanding being a backman then it's little wonder you don't understand why the football media and experts are targetting him. No disrespect, but many of you just don't understand footy.

If we're talking about understanding footy, fifty per cent of the game is now played running back into defence, on the fast break. I would have agreed with you if we were talking about the '90s, where blokes like Silvagni would use their hands in the back, at every possible opportunity. Now that is monitored so heavily, it closely negates a defender coming in from behind (of course it still happens occasionally, but that would clearly be in the minority). You can't chop the arms, you must face the ball as it comes towards you and your opponent. So much of the game is about judging when to spoil, rather than merely coming over the top.

I understand perfectly why he has been targeted by the media (hence my line about improving his physicality), but once again, my entire point was that there are those who offend just as much yet escape criticism.

[Binmans PA 26,469]

Hmmm.

Touche, indeed.

Edited May 29, 2012 by AdamFarr

[Hannibal 5,814]

If we're talking about understanding footy, fifty per cent of the game is now played running back into defence, on the fast break. I would have agreed with you if we were talking about the '90s, where blokes like Silvagni would use their hands in the back, at every possible opportunity. Now that is monitored so heavily, it closely negates a defender coming in from behind (of course it still happens occasionally, but that would clearly be in the minority). You can't chop the arms, you must face the ball as it comes towards you and your opponent. So much of the game is about judging when to spoil, rather than merely coming over the top.

I understand perfectly why he has been targeted by the media (hence my line about improving his physicality), but once again, my entire point was that there are those who offend just as much yet escape criticism.

I'm really just talking about the courage stakes. Going for a high contested mark as a key forward takes courage. Spoiling not so much. Watts has been exposed with his poor attempts at high marking, or even worse, avoiding the contest. My point about Watts being a key forward is that he'll find himself in positions where his courage is tested more often than some players, which in itself leads to greater scrutiny.

But don't worry, I've been very critical of Davey, Jurrah, Dunn and others for being soft. I don't play favourites.

[Binmans PA 26,469]

I'm really just talking about the courage stakes. Going for a high contested mark as a key forward takes courage. Spoiling not so much. Watts has been exposed with his poor attempts at high marking, or even worse, avoiding the contest. My point about Watts being a key forward is that he'll find himself in positions where his courage is tested more often than some players, which in itself leads to greater scrutiny.

But don't worry, I've been very critical of Davey, Jurrah, Dunn and others for being soft. I don't play favourites.

I'd disagree with this then. Jared Rivers backing back into packs every week says hi. If anything, a forward has a chance to run and jump at the ball, while a defender has to sit under it.

Once again though, the OP wasn't intended to be a mini-JW thread. It's about the media and football fans playing 'sink the boot in' with one player and rarely anyone else.