... like trying to change a golf swing

[Ouch! 2,266]

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/tabid/7415/default.aspx?newsid=136598

Just read this, and if it is possible to put the emotion of our 0-8 start and how poorly we played on the weekend aside. It is an interesting comparison made here in that changing a game plan, as significantly as Mark Neeld has done could be akin to trying to change a golf swing.

Again if people are able to put aside the thoughts of "a lack of effort", "we are getting nothing from our senior players", "how the heck can we be worse than GWS and GC" type thoughts for a moment, it would also be worth noting that the more ingrained the gameplan is the harder it is to change, suggesting that the style of our gameplan we are trying to implement is very likely going to make us look a heck of a lot worse whilst it becomes instinctive, and that it is the sort of thing that would add to the perception that our older playing group is poor, or not committing.

... before it looks better.

I have played a bit of golf in the past, and followed it on the television like most sports tragics do, it's worth noting players like Adam Scott and Tiger Woods have had their golf swings remodelled with different "swing coaches" over the years and they play worse (sometimes a LOT worse) before their game improves. Instinct, and a commitment to see the change through before being able to completely trust that it is the right thing are not easy things to do. Even with myself as a very amateur golfer, getting coaching to improve a golf swing, it really sucks to start with and feels awful, and unnatural, to the point that you question yourself (especially if you revert back to the old swing and manage to connect sweetly...)

Golfers also have the luxury of being able to put these changes in place on the practice fairways etc... where there is no way to get this to work in the AFL sense but out in the middle of the G with all of us watching them.

I am by no means excusing or justifying what has progressed this season as I am as flat and pained by all of this like the rest of the people on this board. I still do have serious questions over some players efforts, what happened to cause 186 etc... but we are trying to change the "golf swing" of the MFC with 22 people holding the golf club. Not only do each of them have to learn, and get this instinctively correct, but they will have to buy in, and perhaps not all of them will, but thats what Neeld and the rest of the coaches have to keep working on.

.... I no longer play golf by the way frustrating bloody game!!!!

[Dr. Mubutu 866]

I have a serious question regarding this. If one were to approach a professional orchestra with a new piece of music they've never played before, would you be outraged if they took 6 months in practice, and then for the first 8 public performances, were subjected to a cacophony of noise the likes of which had never been heard by human ears, with no HINT of melody, wouldn't you be justifiably outraged? Especially if you had to pay to listen to that dross?

Can someone please explain to me how this is any different? In all seriousness.

[Axis of Bob 11,853]

The football equivalent of your analogy is that you turn up to training during the week and the players don't know what to do.

A better analogy would be that it's like giving that piece to an orchestra and they finish last in a competition against other orchestras that have been playing the same peice for many years.

Are you disappointed? Yes. Is it understandable? Yes.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Axis of Bob

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Ian Baker-Finch

[Ouch! 2,266]

I have a serious question regarding this. If one were to approach a professional orchestra with a new piece of music they've never played before, would you be outraged if they took 6 months in practice, and then for the first 8 public performances, were subjected to a cacophony of noise the likes of which had never been heard by human ears, with no HINT of melody, wouldn't you be justifiably outraged? Especially if you had to pay to listen to that dross?

Can someone please explain to me how this is any different? In all seriousness.

I think it's significantly different. You are not asking the orchestra to play their instruments any different, their role is the same as always. A member of an orchestra has always played that instrument for hours and hours every day for years and years before getting to play in an orchestra. You put music in front of them, they know how to read it like reading a book.

Using your analogy, members of the MFC orchestra had probably been tuning their violins to a different tuning to the Cellos. Our tuba player was probably blowing in the wrong end. and the guy on the clarinet has been told to go and play the piccolo. and the horn section were confused about the difference between piano and forte (I studied music and play guitar better than I play golf )

Also an Orchestra gets to practise the piece to perfection before releasing it on an audience. How can the MFC practise a game plan out of sight of everyone, when you need to be able to put it into practise against opposition teams?

[Ouch! 2,266]

Ian Baker-Finch

.... umm the flaw that proves the theory perhaps?

[Dr. Mubutu 866]

The football equivalent of your analogy is that you turn up to training during the week and the players don't know what to do.

A better analogy would be that it's like giving that piece to an orchestra and they finish last in a competition against other orchestras that have been playing the same peice for many years.

Are you disappointed? Yes. Is it understandable? Yes.

Surely some of those orchestras have only been playing from their respective charts for the same amount of time? The skills should translate across. Surely you'd be wondering why some of the players are retaining their seats, as opposed to gunning for the conductor.........

[Dr. Mubutu 866]

I think it's significantly different. You are not asking the orchestra to play their instruments any different, their role is the same as always. A member of an orchestra has always played that instrument for hours and hours every day for years and years before getting to play in an orchestra. You put music in front of them, they know how to read it like reading a book.

Using your analogy, members of the MFC orchestra had probably been tuning their violins to a different tuning to the Cellos. Our tuba player was probably blowing in the wrong end. and the guy on the clarinet has been told to go and play the piccolo. and the horn section were confused about the difference between piano and forte (I studied music and play guitar better than I play golf )

Also an Orchestra gets to practise the piece to perfection before releasing it on an audience. How can the MFC practise a game plan out of sight of everyone, when you need to be able to put it into practise against opposition teams?

If this is the case, how were they even employed?

And I don't think it's the case of clarinet to piccolo, more trumpet to tuba. The exact same WAY to play it, just slightly different, which takes no more than a few weeks to overcome, even in an amateur setting.

These guys have been practicing football skills for years. Nobody is asking them to do things drastically differently, just apply them in a different way. I'm beginning to doubt the footballing IQ of our list in a serious way, given some of the awful performances we have been served up under the illusion of football.

Also, putting the gameplan into practice..........isn't this what TRAINING is for? O_o

[Ouch! 2,266]

If this is the case, how were they even employed?

And I don't think it's the case of clarinet to piccolo, more trumpet to tuba. The exact same WAY to play it, just slightly different, which takes no more than a few weeks to overcome, even in an amateur setting.

These guys have been practicing football skills for years. Nobody is asking them to do things drastically differently, just apply them in a different way. I'm beginning to doubt the footballing IQ of our list in a serious way, given some of the awful performances we have been served up under the illusion of football.

Also, putting the gameplan into practice..........isn't this what TRAINING is for? O_o

I guess this is where we will need to disagree, It's not the understanding of how to kick a football, or the skills of the game we are talking about here. The game plan is what has changed, not their skill set. I also think that the new FD has in fact asked them to change the way they play drastically, it's not a small change. And this change is "possibly" a factor in why the older players who have had a game style ingrained for longer than the younger players appear to be struggling more.

I agree training is to put the gameplan into practice, but the instinct and trust in yours and your team mates's execution of the plan is not something you can perfect through training alone.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Oucher

[Mickey "O" 32]

Training pressure and gameday pressure are also drastically different. You can't lose training...

[Ouch! 2,266]

Training pressure and gameday pressure are also drastically different. You can't lose training...

.... we probably could!

[Mickey "O" 32]

.... we probably could!

Well, I suppose if anyone was going to....

[Dr. Mubutu 866]

I guess this is where we will need to disagree, It's not the understanding of how to kick a football, or the skills of the game we are talking about here. The game plan is what has changed, not their skill set. I also think that the new FD has in fact asked them to change the way they play drastically, it's not a small change. And this change is "possibly" a factor in why the older players who have had a game style ingrained for longer than the younger players appear to be struggling more.

I agree training is to put the gameplan into practice, but the instinct and trust in yours and your team mates's execution of the plan is not something you can perfect through training alone.

I think we will have to agree to disagree. I do have to admit, I fail to see how PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALLERS can take so long to 'get' the gameplan, even when it is using the same set of skills. In any other workplace, they would have been let go by now. I think the club needs to take the business approach (some would say 'mercenary'). If they're going to treat it as a job, so should we. If you can't meet the most BASIC of KPI's, see ya later.

[Ouch! 2,266]

I think we will have to agree to disagree. I do have to admit, I fail to see how PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALLERS can take so long to 'get' the gameplan, even when it is using the same set of skills. In any other workplace, they would have been let go by now. I think the club needs to take the business approach (some would say 'mercenary'). If they're going to treat it as a job, so should we. If you can't meet the most BASIC of KPI's, see ya later.

(Probably the last comment I'll make as we are probably just rehashing things) but the FD are attempting to reprogramme the players instinct for how they play, 8 weeks (plus pre-season) is not enough, Hardwick took 9 weeks to get a win. I can't remember Clarkson at the hawks, but it was a very poor side that was continually flogged and criticised, but they come out the other end.

.... and it's painful to watch as a supporter, it sucks because it's not just the last 8 weeks or so, but the last 4-5 years that we have suffered.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

.... umm the flaw that proves the theory perhaps?

Well maybe, but Baker- Finch was a good player before he changed his swing and a hacker after he did, so I guess you can turn a player from good to bad if you try to make them something they're not and a bad player good if you change the style in which you play and that style suits him.

[george_on_the_outer 7,706]

This is what happens when you give perfectly good musicians different instruments to play:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLsFGgfvx8o

At the moment I would be happy if our senior players could play as well.

[Sloth 8]

The football equivalent of your analogy is that you turn up to training during the week and the players don't know what to do.

A better analogy would be that it's like giving that piece to an orchestra and they finish last in a competition against other orchestras that have been playing the same peice for many years.

Are you disappointed? Yes. Is it understandable? Yes.

And, our musicians are for the most part less able and less willing

[deeflog 679]

is it a little ironic that under the opening post there is an advertisement for perfecting your golf swing...........?

[The Great One 99 125]

I take solace in that when the game plan finally works, it will take the rest of the competion so long to emulate our greatness.

[mauriesy 7,357]

Can someone please explain to me how this is any different? In all seriousness.

To me it's like taking jazz musicians and telling them to play classical. They're used to syncopation, innovation and not much following a script, and suddenly they have to adhere to formal structures, count bars and work strictly together as a team.

[monoccular 17,574]

http://www.melbourne...x?newsid=136598

........ an interesting comparison made here in that changing a game plan, as significantly as Mark Neeld has done could be akin to trying to change a golf swing.

.........

.... I no longer play golf by the way frustrating bloody game!!!!

Oh no....as easy as changing your golf swing to improve your game!!!! Damn. I was silly enough to think that we did have some chance to improve eventually :-)

[Dr. Mubutu 866]

This is what happens when you give perfectly good musicians different instruments to play:

At the moment I would be happy if our senior players could play as well.

Ah, but that's a false equivalency. It's not as if we're taking back pocket players and telling them to be ruckmen. I think maurie has it more right with the jazz scenario. But surely, if they have the underlying skills: i.e. fingerings, embouchures, etc. (cf. kicking, tackling, positioning) it wouldn't take all that long to come to terms with it, especially if you are playing with what is essentially the same group of musicians.

Just as an aside maurie, I'd say jazz musicians have to adhere to the 'team' dynamic slightly more, IMO.

[Ouch! 2,266]

Ah, but that's a false equivalency. It's not as if we're taking back pocket players and telling them to be ruckmen. I think maurie has it more right with the jazz scenario. But surely, if they have the underlying skills: i.e. fingerings, embouchures, etc. (cf. kicking, tackling, positioning) it wouldn't take all that long to come to terms with it, especially if you are playing with what is essentially the same group of musicians.

Just as an aside maurie, I'd say jazz musicians have to adhere to the 'team' dynamic slightly more, IMO.

It's as much/more even about the feel/instinct than the technical aspect.

Somethings can be clinical perfect, but without the feel/empathy/instinct it feels lifeless?

[Dr. Mubutu 866]

It's as much/more even about the feel/instinct than the technical aspect.

Somethings can be clinical perfect, but without the feel/empathy/instinct it feels lifeless?

Frankly, at the moment, I'd settle for clinically perfect. Even without the feel, surely the players can deliver that? It seems at the moment, they have just forgotten even how to play football. You can't blame a gameplan for that.

[mauriesy 7,357]

Just as an aside maurie, I'd say jazz musicians have to adhere to the 'team' dynamic slightly more, IMO.

Jazz musicians have got far more ability to improvise and do their own thing within the team. In a classical orchestra that would be frowned on.

Perhaps the football analogy is that we want a structured, disciplined team but ultimately with some ability for individual improvisation. Don't want to kill the 'joy of football' completely.