Training load

[binman 42,740]

A query for the board. I've been thinking how slow we seem to be and how despite a big pre season we are struggling to run out quarters and games.

Obviously one big pre season is not likely to be enough if as Misson had suggested we were way under the required fitness standard (though Essendon seemed to improve their fitness substantially between Knights and Hird - perhaps we were alot further back). And we do lack leg speed across the team.

However i wonder if Misson is continuing to train the squad super hard, perhaps thinking ahead to 2013 and this is contributing to our obvious fatigue. Perhaps they looked at the fixture and thought we are in for some pain in the first half of the season any way (partic because it will take at least half a season to get the game plan) so why not [censored] them then ease up or taper a bit in the second half when we have alot more winnable games. This sort of heavy loads and tapering (albeit in shorter cycles than half a season) has been part of footy for along time and i'm pretty sure is something Craig favored as did the pies

This might serve the purpose of building the fitness to the level required to implement the game plan . It might increase the number of games we win the back half, build the belief of both the team and supporters and provide a great platform for 2013 both in terms of fitness but also confidence.

A long bow perhaps but perhaps a necessary step as we are clearly not fit enough to implement Neelds game plan and what other alternatives are there to get them up to the fitness level required in a hurry?

Thoughts? Does anyone out there have any knowledge about how hard they are currently being pushed? Am i clutching at straws?

Edited May 7, 2012 by binman

[drdrake 3,163]

I think there is two sides to speed, one is the foot speed of your players and agree we look slow, but the most important is the speed you move the footy. We look slow more to the fact we aren't spreading well. I heard someone on the week end in the media mention this is phase two, phase 1 was for our players to win more contested footy, phase 2 was learning to spread again. Mick Malthouse was big on this on Saturday, once we get confidence that we will win the contested footy we won't need multiple players at the same contest we will back our team mates to win the footy and run to the space to create an option.

To me we are getting burnt on the outside more because we are flat footed around the contest allowing oppostion players on the outside un manned, as soon as we lose the footy they break away and we look slow. Soon we will see our players on the outside and hopefully making our opponents look slow

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

We just don't have many naturally "quick" leg speed players either across the ground (in general) or with break away burst speed on this list, with the exception of Blease, Jurrah and maybe Bennell. None of whom are playing in the seniors atm.

We are a slooow, plodding team, with the exception of Jones who has the ability to baulk and feign etc in order to make his way through traffic or to slip the tackler at times.

I suspect this is why we might be struggling in both the contested possession (4th last) and uncontested possession (Last) count. Too slow to get numbers to the contest often enough, and too slow to spread after we get the ball (not great there either being 5th last in the clearance count to date).

In addition we struggle to string a series of more than 2 or 3 quick possessions (handballs mostly) in a row together once we get the ball (last in disposal efficiency), putting doubt into the minds of the players around the ball as to whether they should run off their man and spread once we get it, in the fear that we're going to turn it over straight away....so we don't have the faith to run off and spread instinctively like the top teams do, knowing that their players (once they get it) will generally dispose of the ball pretty accurately and/or to the advantage of our player...not the opponent (in general...even the top 4 teams make disposal/judgement errors of course).

We lack....

> Leg speed across the ground (love to see our play on/run and bounce stats....they'd be extremely low i'd think)

> 2 to 3 quick players across half back through the middle with initial burst speed to break away and run the lines

> Belief that we'll win the one on one contest. I have the feeling most of our boys (in general...not in all cases) don't believe in their fellow player's ability to win the one on one contest, hence we often rush into an existing contest where our player has his player well covered already, leaving that player's opponent free to get the spill or resulting possession IF the opposing team gets the ball....which is much more often than us on the average at this point.

> And an attacking frame of mind when the opponent is being well held (neutral phase of game, neither team dominating, game there to be won). IMO Neeld has made the mistake of putting the players into a totally "defensive" mind set right throughout the game rather than slowly teaching them this option, whilst at the same time having a strong "attacking" take the game on when it's there to be won mindset . Trying to play his game plan and their roles "exactly" as specified which for the main part is focused on "defensive aspects". This is fine when things are going against us in the contest and we're up against a team getting a run on or in great form in order to limit the damage on the scoreboard (a la Saturday). But when the opportunity arises and the game's there to be won (ie., 3rd quarter against the Cats...WITH THE WIND....on Sat, final Quarter against the Dogs, 3rd quarter against the Tigers), we refuse to take our opponents on in most cases, take risks and run forward of our opponents (faith that your player will win the contest and dispose to our advantage...ie., "Attacking" mind set) and play on at all costs in order to gain yardage, break lines and string a series of over lapping handballs together or quick short passes to players hitting up on the lead....hopefully resulting in finding an open player for the mark i50 or a player in space i50 on the run (in space...created by the attacking play and overlap etc) who has a decent opening for a shot on goal on the run. Basically an attacking fast break, using clean disposal, run & carry and finding a hit up or loose player forward of play who then moves the ball on super fast to the next contest (preferably to OUR advantage with the kick or handball....doesn't have to be perfect on the chest passes etc!).

Hopefully Neeld will start encouraging them to attack (play on/run & carry/take your opponent on) and bring some quicker players in in the 2nd half of the year, as well as focus on the disposal skills in general (including kicking/hand balling to the advantage of our player etc).

Otherwise we'll struggle to beat anyone (with the exception of maybe GWS & Port over here) with this current on field line up and mind set IMO.

Edited May 7, 2012 by Rusty Nails

[hardtack 10,520]

Leg speed is, of course, a great asset, but in our case, I think one of the things holding us back is speed of a different kind... mental speed. Our players too often seem to be caught in two minds as to what to do with the ball and as a result end up either caught holding the ball or having to make a late ineffective disposal.

Also, as a hopeless runner myself and as someone who is clueless when it comes to anatomical physics, is leg speed something that can be developed/taught, or will a slow plodding play always be slow and plodding... I get the feel technique is not something that a player is going to think too much about when they are in a tight spot.

Edited May 7, 2012 by hardtack

[Guest José Mourinho]

I think there is two sides to speed, one is the foot speed of your players and agree we look slow, but the most important is the speed you move the footy. We look slow more to the fact we aren't spreading well. I heard someone on the week end in the media mention this is phase two, phase 1 was for our players to win more contested footy, phase 2 was learning to spread again. Mick Malthouse was big on this on Saturday, once we get confidence that we will win the contested footy we won't need multiple players at the same contest we will back our team mates to win the footy and run to the space to create an option.

To me we are getting burnt on the outside more because we are flat footed around the contest allowing oppostion players on the outside un manned, as soon as we lose the footy they break away and we look slow. Soon we will see our players on the outside and hopefully making our opponents look slow

Interesting.

This is something some posters pointed out in the NAB Cup games...

[praha 11,237]

We needed to win more of the hard ball. That requires extensive effort. Neeld commented on how poor the playing group's level of fitness was when he came to the club, at least compared to top-tier clubs. We are winning the hard ball, but losing the uncontested possession count because players aren't getting back into position.

The team is grossly unfit. It'll take a year and another pre-season before those kinks are worked out.

Makes me that little bit more frustrated at the club, that the players can be so underdone.

[Its Time for Another 4,197]

I have also been thinking the same thing. It could be that getting them to competitive levels from what we are being told was such a low base has resulted in them coming into the season tired. The training work load may also not being helping in the short term. Your suggestion could be spot on. I hope it is and for the reasons you suggest.

Also nearly all the players with leg speed on the list came into the season with under done pre seasons. McKenzie, Bail, Flash all were predominantly in the rehab group for nearly the whole preseason. Speedy half backs Strauss, gone, Blease, really struggling with fitness and development. Hopefully they will all turn around in the second half.

[Pennant St Dee 13,135]

A query for the board. I've been thinking how slow we seem to be and how despite a big pre season we are struggling to run out quarters and games.

Obviously one big pre season is not likely to be enough if as Misson had suggested we were way under the required fitness standard (though Essendon seemed to improve their fitness substantially between Knights and Hird - perhaps we were alot further back). And we do lack leg speed across the team.

However i wonder if Misson is continuing to train the squad super hard, perhaps thinking ahead to 2013 and this is contributing to our obvious fatigue. Perhaps they looked at the fixture and thought we are in for some pain in the first half of the season any way (partic because it will take at least half a season to get the game plan) so why not [censored] them then ease up or taper a bit in the second half when we have alot more winnable games. This sort of heavy loads and tapering (albeit in shorter cycles than half a season) has been part of footy for along time and i'm pretty sure is something Craig favored as did the pies

This might serve the purpose of building the fitness to the level required to implement the game plan . It might increase the number of games we win the back half, build the belief of both the team and supporters and provide a great platform for 2013 both in terms of fitness but also confidence.

A long bow perhaps but perhaps a necessary step as we are clearly not fit enough to implement Neelds game plan and what other alternatives are there to get them up to the fitness level required in a hurry?

Thoughts? Does anyone out there have any knowledge about how hard they are currently being pushed? Am i clutching at straws?

Maybe nothing to it but West Coast maintain they were overcooked in season 2010 due to overtraining in that pre season and getting their programme wrong

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

We needed to win more of the hard ball. That requires extensive effort. Neeld commented on how poor the playing group's level of fitness was when he came to the club, at least compared to top-tier clubs. We are winning the hard ball, but losing the uncontested possession count because players aren't getting back into position.

The team is grossly unfit. It'll take a year and another pre-season before those kinks are worked out.

Makes me that little bit more frustrated at the club, that the players can be so underdone.

I'm not sure this is correct in a general sense. Maybe we're matching some teams or "just" marginally ahead at best. 4th last in contested possession count at this stage against the rest of the comp according to AFL stats.

Might be a little more enlightening if we could see a "hard ball gets" stat for the season so far (if we could get it and it's more meaningful than CP. Not sure that it is though).

[Sir Why You Little 36,999]

What other club would waste 4 years of a rebiuld the way the MFC has?

Round 1 2008 will be repeated on friday night.

NOT HAPPY JAN.

[Disco Demons 92]

What other club would waste 4 years of a rebiuld the way the MFC has?

Round 1 2008 will be repeated on friday night.

NOT HAPPY JAN.

well said...Dean Bailey got rid of seasoned bodies and replaced them with youth. Thrown them to the wolves.

When the Bombers were down they never struggled with leadership like us. Having the likes of Fletcher and Watson. has helped bring players on quicker.

Plus Bombers seem to have a winning culture of recent times...current players would have grown up watching the bombers win flags.

[Go the Biff 3,414]

well said...Dean Bailey got rid of seasoned bodies and replaced them with youth. Thrown them to the wolves.

When the Bombers were down they never struggled with leadership like us. Having the likes of Fletcher and Watson. has helped bring players on quicker.

Plus Bombers seem to have a winning culture of recent times...current players would have grown up watching the bombers win flags.

We didn't have a Fletcher or a Watson

Bailey did as he was asked. And never blinked

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,708]

We didn't have a Fletcher or a Watson

Bailey did as he was asked. And never blinked

Asked by whom?

[Go the Biff 3,414]

The club

Refer back to his press conference post dismissal if you're in any doubt as to what his brief was

[deejammin' 2,370]

Maybe nothing to it but West Coast maintain they were overcooked in season 2010 due to overtraining in that pre season and getting their programme wrong

I would maintain that this was one of the more blatant instances of tanking in the modern era that has gone largely overlooked due to their being in Perth.

[monoccular 17,417]

We needed to win more of the hard ball. That requires extensive effort. Neeld commented on how poor the playing group's level of fitness was when he came to the club, at least compared to top-tier clubs. We are winning the hard ball, but losing the uncontested possession count because players aren't getting back into position.

The team is grossly unfit. It'll take a year and another pre-season before those kinks are worked out.

Makes me that little bit more frustrated at the club, that the players can be so underdone.

I understood - don't have the stats - that we were doing reasonably well on hard ball (may be wrong) but weren't getting enough "receives" which will (hopefully) grow from the former.A process in evolution.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

For me the lack of speed has a lot to do between the ears.

Melbourne players need to realise that their first five steps are when they should be working their hardest, acceleration is poor. On top of that Melbourne players don't think ahead enough, that is they tend to all watch the ball. As Malthouse alluded to in the commentary there isn't enough trust between the players where Player A goes for the ball while Player B puts on a block or runs to where the ball will be, not to where it is. For me, these two factors play a large role in the perceived slowness of the team.

[Guest José Mourinho]

For me the lack of speed has a lot to do between the ears.

Melbourne players need to realise that their first five steps are when they should be working their hardest, acceleration is poor. On top of that Melbourne players don't think ahead enough, that is they tend to all watch the ball. As Malthouse alluded to in the commentary there isn't enough trust between the players where Player A goes for the ball while Player B puts on a block or runs to where the ball will be, not to where it is. For me, these two factors play a large role in the perceived slowness of the team.

Fitness?

[Allen Jakovich 516]

WHat a load of tripe, as if Bailey didn't have the power to keep Robbo and JMac. He was just a sh7t coach, that was his problem...

[Nasher 33,613]

WHat a load of tripe, as if Bailey didn't have the power to keep Robbo and JMac. He was just a sh7t coach, that was his problem...

I realise JMac was a point of contention but anyone who argues that Bailey should've kept Robertson - at risk of sounding like B-H - watches a different game to me.

Watch the videos with Robbo's Neeld interviews on the MFC site. Neeld is no doubt just taking a light hearted jab at Robbo about his next tackle being his first one, but that is without a doubt why Robertson got left behind as a player.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Fitness?

Possibly, but I think it's about working smart, not just hard.

[Pennant St Dee 13,135]

I would maintain that this was one of the more blatant instances of tanking in the modern era that has gone largely overlooked due to their being in Perth.

Mate I hate them but this was early to mid 2010 before Richmond had won a game around this time they put the cue in the rack and started getting ready for 2011 and changed there prep

[binman 42,740]

Does anyone have any intel and/or expertise about our current training load? How about Hells Gate, can you shed any light on this question? perhaps rudeboy

It would be an interesting question to put to Misson, perhaps Burgan can do so.

I remember a few years back Eade really flogged the dogs about 2/3 into the season for a few weeks and was quite open about it. They really fell away (after a very strong season to that point) due to the resultant fatigue and there was a fair bit of debate about the tactic (as it turned out it didn't really help, they lost a few and then couldn't and then found it hard to get their mojo back)

[Allen Jakovich 516]

I realise JMac was a point of contention but anyone who argues that Bailey should've kept Robertson - at risk of sounding like B-H - watches a different game to me.

Watch the videos with Robbo's Neeld interviews on the MFC site. Neeld is no doubt just taking a light hearted jab at Robbo about his next tackle being his first one, but that is without a doubt why Robertson got left behind as a player.

Robbo drove me nuts in his final season with some of the most woeful displays of selfishness I have seen on the footy field, and a complete disinterest in the defensive aspects of the game, but Bailey could have turned him round rather than cast him adrift... I'm sure Malthouse would have... to name but one half decent coach...

[DeeSpencer 25,522]

I think training loads during season would be pretty standard. You just couldn't put too much stress on guys when they are playing each week. Remember it usually takes until Thursday for guys (especially the young and the old) to be back feeling anywhere near fresh, not to mention those carrying injuries.

As for our speed, I think it's brain speed not leg speed.

We just can't work out how to get to the right spots and then react quick enough to what is going on. For example dynamic midfield spread towards where the ball goes from the start of a clearance but also to block outlets and open up targets makes you look lightning if the other team just stand in the middle. We are the guys in the middle at the moment. When the ball goes to our backline the other teams mids have blocked up our outlets quicker than we have guys out there getting the ball. Then without the kicking to dissect through well manned up presses everything gets slower again. We didn't look slow against St Kilda because things fell into place well, but I bet trying to man up hawthorn as they flick the ball across half back and then to their forwards we'll look like statues.