Killed by Kindness

[dee-luded 2,959]

What am i wrong about DL??

Do you think we need more first year coaches??

You are the only person on this site who bumps their own thread and then adds another post saying the same things.

Amazing.

thats right WYL you cannot see the truth.

the psychology of it & of our demise this is why so few coaches are stars & winners. because most don't 'get', what the super-coaches know. even if they choose to keep the understanding to themselves. they use it, but don't speak of it publicly.

I'm an eternal optimist, in that I choose to believe people can grasp the concept. Maybe I am wrong Re people being able to learn psychological understanding. its easy.

I was told decades ago that most cannot do what I can do going thru the analytical therapy. I scoffed. disbelief. what she was saying was that I am naturally psychologically minded, or had become so in my travels...

This is why I speak of things differently to most, I can see & comprehend they're ideas, but most are really basic & just more of the same again. they cannot see new concepts in their mind & how they unfold. Insight.

so I'm sorry WYL that you aren't able to understand the ideas I've put forward. so I'll stop hounding you.

[dee-luded 2,959]

To be fair to Dee-luded, I think that having some kind of place for supporters to meet would make the club more accessible, breed a long term loyalty among supporters that we need now more than ever and create a sense of community that I see as missing from our club. Kids who are wavering at the moment as to whether they stick with us or not might be more than likely to stick if they are surrounded from time to time with fellow travelers. (See my post re: visiting the Westpac centre)

That being said, before we start doing that, we need to get the fundamentals right and our core business down which is winning football games. I also reckon we should be trying to reach out to non-Anglo, non Eastern Suburbs Melbournians/Australians more than we currently do but I do recognize there are bigger challenges that we need to overcome before we try to do that (i.e. putting a watchable product on the field).

Social clubs and community outreach come after the point when we actually realize what our reason for being is.

this is right, its become nowadays just little more than going to the flicks... because that 'communal tribal feel' has Gone,,, dead. and our northern stand is open to all colours of cloth, Pies Bummers, Blues, even the Ponsford stand has been hijacked by Eddie everywhere.

we own less & less & still remain vigilantly insular to the end.

[Sir Why You Little 37,310]

thats right WYL you cannot see the truth.

the psychology of it & of our demise this is why so few coaches are stars & winners. because most don't 'get', what the super-coaches know. even if they choose to keep the understanding to themselves. they use it, but don't speak of it publicly.

I'm an eternal optimist, in that I choose to believe people can grasp the concept. Maybe I am wrong Re people being able to learn psychological understanding. its easy.

I was told decades ago that most cannot do what I can do going thru the analytical therapy. I scoffed. disbelief. what she was saying was that I am naturally psychologically minded, or had become so in my travels...

This is why I speak of things differently to most, I can see & comprehend they're ideas, but most are really basic & just more of the same again. they cannot see new concepts in their mind & how they unfold. Insight.

so I'm sorry WYL that you aren't able to understand the ideas I've put forward. so I'll stop hounding you.

Now you tell me you are a higher being...How fascinating.

So during 1982-2009 when the MFC was NOT part of the MCC was that also the fault of the Northern Stand??

This will be good

[dee-luded 2,959]

Now you tell me you are a higher being...How fascinating.

So during 1982-2009 when the MFC was NOT part of the MCC was that also the fault of the Northern Stand??

This will be good

nothing could be further from the truth WYL.

But some people understand some things others cannot, brain wiring & experiences. Intuitive, etc. and some just will not, don't want to think psychologically because the thought scares them, like people are scared of needles, some are scared of heights, others think of it as taboo, superstitious for some reason. distrusting about something that exposes their truths.

the growth of the club from 1981 thru to the early 90's was due to the change over of playing personal, moving out old minds & attitudes, gradually. & driving in the new ways with a mental hammer from the U-19's onward...

eventually the new mental ways took over thru the young & the recruits who entered into a more Pro environment, & slowly a new culture was formed, which started to be engrained into our club psyche for a time, but the wheels wobbled & we let it slip away yet again.....

now the club psyche is weak again, you see the club has never been taught... only those players were changed. Its hard for people to change a lifetime of behaviors, & thinking patterns, virtually impossible, & as a supporter base we have a club culture which effects the players on-field... the mood of the supporters in the arena, their sounds effect the players confidence, both ways. There is a subliminal feeling of those around us, we can be aware of subconsciously. the players hear it, feel it & respond subconsciously, with extra energy or less, as the case may be... see Tiges, Blue boys, Bummers when they are up.

The supporters lift the players response, or the opposite... we all feed one another, or we all drag one another down.

WYL, you would be far more intuitive & knowledgeable about video & audio than I would, about dubbing & editing... & many other things of which I don't spend time thinking about.

I've spent a lifetime wondering about the MFC failures, & why... & I know the feeling to be outside trying to get in. I know what its like to be shut out. I can deal with it & I am used to it & really I don't care, but my experience enlightens me to the reasons many of our supporters have dropped off. Those in the comfy inner circles do not get it. Or they don't care or both.. either way its doom & gloom as the direction we have taken over the last 50 Years.

[Sir Why You Little 37,310]

nothing could be further from the truth WYL.

But some people understand some things others cannot, brain wiring & experiences. Intuitive, etc. and some just will not, don't want to think psychologically because the thought scares them, like people are scared of needles, some are scared of heights, others think of it as taboo, superstitious for some reason. distrusting about something that exposes their truths.

the growth of the club from 1981 thru to the early 90's was due to the change over of playing personal, moving out old minds & attitudes, gradually. & driving in the new ways with a mental hammer from the U-19's onward...

eventually the new mental ways took over thru the young & the recruits who entered into a more Pro environment, & slowly a new culture was formed, which started to be engrained into our club psyche for a time, but the wheels wobbled & we let it slip away yet again.....

now the club psyche is weak again, you see the club has never been taught... only those players were changed. Its hard for people to change a lifetime of behaviors, & thinking patterns, virtually impossible, & as a supporter base we have a club culture which effects the players on-field... the mood of the supporters in the arena, their sounds effect the players confidence, both ways. There is a subliminal feeling of those around us, we can be aware of subconsciously. the players hear it, feel it & respond subconsciously, with extra energy or less, as the case may be... see Tiges, Blue boys, Bummers when they are up.

The supporters lift the players response, or the opposite... we all feed one another, or we all drag one another down.

WYL, you would be far more intuitive & knowledgeable about video & audio than I would, about dubbing & editing... & many other things of which I don't spend time thinking about.

I've spent a lifetime wondering about the MFC failures, & why... & I know the feeling to be outside trying to get in. I know what its like to be shut out. I can deal with it & I am used to it & really I don't care, but my experience enlightens me to the reasons many of our supporters have dropped off. Those in the comfy inner circles do not get it. Or they don't care or both.. either way its doom & gloom as the direction we have taken over the last 50 Years.

Wow. That has to be the most convaluted reply for the entire history of 'land....

[Chook 15,023]

nothing could be further from the truth WYL.

But some people understand some things others cannot, brain wiring & experiences. Intuitive, etc. and some just will not, don't want to think psychologically because the thought scares them, like people are scared of needles, some are scared of heights, others think of it as taboo, superstitious for some reason. distrusting about something that exposes their truths.

the growth of the club from 1981 thru to the early 90's was due to the change over of playing personal, moving out old minds & attitudes, gradually. & driving in the new ways with a mental hammer from the U-19's onward...

eventually the new mental ways took over thru the young & the recruits who entered into a more Pro environment, & slowly a new culture was formed, which started to be engrained into our club psyche for a time, but the wheels wobbled & we let it slip away yet again.....

now the club psyche is weak again, you see the club has never been taught... only those players were changed. Its hard for people to change a lifetime of behaviors, & thinking patterns, virtually impossible, & as a supporter base we have a club culture which effects the players on-field... the mood of the supporters in the arena, their sounds effect the players confidence, both ways. There is a subliminal feeling of those around us, we can be aware of subconsciously. the players hear it, feel it & respond subconsciously, with extra energy or less, as the case may be... see Tiges, Blue boys, Bummers when they are up.

The supporters lift the players response, or the opposite... we all feed one another, or we all drag one another down.

WYL, you would be far more intuitive & knowledgeable about video & audio than I would, about dubbing & editing... & many other things of which I don't spend time thinking about.

I've spent a lifetime wondering about the MFC failures, & why... & I know the feeling to be outside trying to get in. I know what its like to be shut out. I can deal with it & I am used to it & really I don't care, but my experience enlightens me to the reasons many of our supporters have dropped off. Those in the comfy inner circles do not get it. Or they don't care or both.. either way its doom & gloom as the direction we have taken over the last 50 Years.

Nice username.

[dee-tox 4,835]

Any post with 17 ampersands in it has to be good!

[Undeeterred 3,127]

Made the mistake of bypassing the Ignore on deeluded out of sheer curiosity. Won't do it again.

[jackaub 1,402]

To be fair to Dee-luded, I think that having some kind of place for supporters to meet would make the club more accessible, breed a long term loyalty among supporters that we need now more than ever and create a sense of community that I see as missing from our club. Kids who are wavering at the moment as to whether they stick with us or not might be more than likely to stick if they are surrounded from time to time with fellow travelers. (See my post re: visiting the Westpac centre)

That being said, before we start doing that, we need to get the fundamentals right and our core business down which is winning football games. I also reckon we should be trying to reach out to non-Anglo, non Eastern Suburbs Melbournians/Australians more than we currently do but I do recognize there are bigger challenges that we need to overcome before we try to do that (i.e. putting a watchable product on the field).

Social clubs and community outreach come after the point when we actually realize what our reason for being is.

That's right Colin

This club has been involved in just about every two bit side show /cause/break new ground idea going around for many years. We have had all sorts of great PR and involvement except where it counts "Out on the ground " playing competitive footy, being hungry for success and winning. When we have done that then we can be more socially involved and perhaps have the right enviorment to take on and develop project players . The way the club has been run as some sort of social/ business /boys club has been disgusting and hopefully that will be changing.

[dee-luded 2,959]

That's right Colin

This club has been involved in just about every two bit side show /cause/break new ground idea going around for many years. We have had all sorts of great PR and involvement except where it counts "Out on the ground " playing competitive footy, being hungry for success and winning. When we have done that then we can be more socially involved and perhaps have the right enviorment to take on and develop project players . The way the club has been run as some sort of social/ business /boys club has been disgusting and hopefully that will be changing.

We need to change the club on all fronts. Not just one bit here now, & maybe another bit down the track sometime. We need to learn about ourselves, & what makes us tick, what are the strong suits & what are our self destructive points, to to get healthy in a holistic way.

its no good healing one part & not the dysfunctional areas which eventually drag that healed part back down yet again.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Made the mistake of bypassing the Ignore on deeluded out of sheer curiosity. Won't do it again.

there ya go your already becoming , more honest & expressive. thats an improvement already.

in the past posters just left abuse without any expression of explanation. your learning fast. & slowly the culture on here has moved from aggressive abusive Mods to a more even handed & understanding model. some Mods have been removed & things are better.

the trust is returning, so people feel freer to elaborate more, instead of just short winded abuse.

well done

[Demon Stalwart 255]

In fairness to dee-luded , I think what he is banging on about is an intrinsic motivation to affiliate with others and be socially accepted.

This need plays a role in a number of social phenomena such as self-presentation and social comparison.

Our need to belong is what drives us to seek out stable, long lasting relationships with other people.

It also motivates us to participate in social activities such as clubs, sports teams, religious groups, and community organizations.

By belonging to a group, we feel as if we are a part of something bigger and more important than ourselves. The Psychology Dictionary

In Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs, belongingness is part of one of his major needs that motivates human behavior. The hierarchy is usually portrayed as a pyramid, with more basic needs at the base and more complex needs near the peak. The need for love and belonging lie at the center of the pyramid as part of the social needs.

While Maslow suggested that these needs were less important than the physiological and safety needs, he believed that the need for belonging helped people to experience companionship and acceptance through family, friends, and other relationships.

This is obviously a cry for help from dee-luded I think we shoud all listen

[dee-luded 2,959]

In fairness to dee-luded , I think what he is banging on about is an intrinsic motivation to affiliate with others and be socially accepted.

This need plays a role in a number of social phenomena such as self-presentation and social comparison.

Our need to belong is what drives us to seek out stable, long lasting relationships with other people.

It also motivates us to participate in social activities such as clubs, sports teams, religious groups, and community organizations.

By belonging to a group, we feel as if we are a part of something bigger and more important than ourselves. The Psychology Dictionary

In Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs, belongingness is part of one of his major needs that motivates human behavior. The hierarchy is usually portrayed as a pyramid, with more basic needs at the base and more complex needs near the peak. The need for love and belonging lie at the center of the pyramid as part of the social needs.

While Maslow suggested that these needs were less important than the physiological and safety needs, he believed that the need for belonging helped people to experience companionship and acceptance through family, friends, and other relationships.

This is obviously a cry for help from dee-luded I think we shoud all listen

HaHa thanks DS, you are too kind seriously. 'But I like you'.

you are probably right about the need, both from me.. the immediate one here is my need for the club to see its flaws of how it spoils our players of field.... dee-motivating them from aiming to be stars on field, to just satisfied with monetary & materialistic success.

Which I think is one of MFC's biggest influence, as against the spiritual success of say a Collingwood, which inturn does turn Final-ee into financial success via their huge networks... but in the appropriate order for a footballer.

the other side of that coin you mention is I think the need for me to find my environment. as I leave the old one behind, I tend to like to leave things in a healthy manner. One of my biggest regrets is the MFC, the team of my Grandad, too little did I know him, rotting in the sewer of the AFL.

I have been so sick with my club being So Poor re success in my supporting lifetime, it has been a major hurt.

I am looking to move further out into country & most likely distanced from this MFC passion. As I have learnt more about what the club is, Re the people who are left as barrackers these days, Imo very different to the supporter attitudes of the days immediately after the War; I am very disappointed that the club seems snobby in a way, & never realised it was like that.

This was not what my businessman & top sportsman grandfather was about. or what the Aussie way was about, so I find that disillusioning, & I see how that isolates the club from growing.

It is a self-destructive behavior that has crept into this club, as the numbers also slowly ebbed away. concentrating this attitude over the last few decades, I suspect.

For me, I am more & more green, & love the bush, but not the ultra conservative elements in this particular town. funny how towns have different human social cultures, just as footy Clubs do.

So I'm looking for a community of hybrid red-necked petrol heads who love the environment & have greeny attitudes & like to socialise & play hard.

& not be Up themselves.

............. much <3

[robbiefrom13 894]

interesting to see Maslow turn up (Demon Stalwart, post 37). Maslow has at the very top of his hierarchy of needs "self-actualisation", above self-esteem (which is very much aligned with respect). Few achieve self-actualisation, but it is the pinnacle. You have arrived, when you are experiencing self-actualisation, the very fulfilment of what you are about.

Self-actualisation is something the Neelds of the world will never understand or accommodate - but it is what made Jakovich, Jurrah, Flower, Daicos, Jesaulenko, Ablett Snr etc what they were: they "went themselves" as Hopkins put it, unique and with imagination and creativity beyond any anticipated norms.

In place of respect, Melbourne players appear to have suffered years of abuse from we are not entirely sure whom, but certainly including Neeld and probably Schwab. (Supporters too - though hopefully the players don't read Demonland.) I acknowledge that there have been other issues as well, but Maslow's analysis of needs does offer some relevant points.

Grinding compliance firstly makes relationships impersonal and token (undermining belongingness), and secondly, it denies individuality, which is the stuff of Maslow's ultimate and highest "need". While it is pointless to talk of self-actualisation if the lower levels of the pyramid are not in place, so that lawless individuals will only achieve a spurious individuality, nevertheless if the relationship/team things are in place, then it is the inspired instinct of individual spur-of-the-moment originality that tears a game apart. Playing on instinct, free "in the zone". That is the mountaintop experience, the very best, in all walks of life. Mechanical processes can achieve a lot, but in terms of what is possible for a human being, they do not go all the way.

Belief in the team goals is not what Melbourne players are lacking - "buy-in" was a egocentric mantra from a man with no idea of how to get the best out of people, no idea of the hierarchy of needs that take people towards the mountaintop. Maslow would say, first self-esteem (along with belongingness), and then hopefully moving towards the ultimate: self-actualisation.

[daisycutter 29,892]

well explained robbie......and very apt