MFC do the ends justify the means

[Guest 36DD]

Pretty sure this topic hasn't been broached on land yet...apologies if it has.

The following article appeared in The Age on the weekend and discusses betting agencies sponsoring football clubs, with particular mention of Deesbet.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/footballs-big-punt-20110513-1eme8.html

Are we happy that Deesbet (Betezy) are providing the club with much needed sponsorship or should we be concerned about the social implications?

Its quite a relevant point given 2 past player, The Ox and D Ward have had their lives negatively impacted upon by gambling.

So the big question is do we accept cash from certain companies which can be seen to profit off the misery of other or do we forgo the sponsorship dollars and maintain a higher moral ground? Are we financially in the position to maintain the moral high ground???

[Sir Why You Little 34,752]

We need money to run this club. I understand many people do suffer from betting problems, i do not have any interest in betting (except the occasional Lotto Ticket & a Bet on this very club) so i am not directly affected by dirty betting debt.

If we were all affwcted by the "High Moral Ground" in all aspects of life, no one would get out of bed.

There is a point where we all must take stock of our own personal situations.

Betting has been populiar in this country since Cook landed the Endevour, yes the internet has highlighted the problem.

But so did Jeffrey Gibb Kennett when he allowed Crown to build that evil empire in my city.

Betting exists because humans want it.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

we've been over this but gambling is like alcohol, cigarettes, bungee jumping and junk food, all are hazardous to your health if incorrectly used and it is up to the individual. Whether deesbet exists or not will have no influence on the amount of total gambling, they would just roll the dice with someone else

and no we are not in the finacial position to do anything, have you seen our injury list

[Guest 36DD]

Well i'd luv for us to be in a position to not rely on it, and I guess I may be being a little idealistic.

Must say that i am envious of Barcelona's ability to provide unicef with naming right to their kit.

Understand the argument that its the individuals responsibility I just feel that we are whoring ourselves to a company with a questionable product, so questionable that it sees the need to camouflage its operations by using club colours and its nickname.

[Sir Why You Little 34,752]

Well i'd luv for us to be in a position to not rely on it, and I guess I may be being a little idealistic.

Must say that i am envious of Barcelona's ability to provide unicef with naming right to their kit.

Understand the argument that its the individuals responsibility I just feel that we are whoring ourselves to a company with a questionable product, so questionable that it sees the need to camouflage its operations by using club colours and its nickname.

Totally understand your sentiments but remember this...All the appliances in your house that we use to make our life more "comfortable" are assembled in third world countries on assembly lines, who work hideously long hours for a pittance.

So where do you draw the line....money circulates in both clean and dirty transactions. It continues to move at random.

[daisycutter 28,660]

Well i'd luv for us to be in a position to not rely on it, and I guess I may be being a little idealistic.

Must say that i am envious of Barcelona's ability to provide unicef with naming right to their kit.

Understand the argument that its the individuals responsibility I just feel that we are whoring ourselves to a company with a questionable product, so questionable that it sees the need to camouflage its operations by using club colours and its nickname.

I think a lot of people would have the same misgivings and unease

And with the prez being so publicly involved with damaged kids it doesn't sit too well

Being mercenary, does anyone know what sort of money is involved? I doubt its very much but wouldn't have a clue

[Guest 36DD]

Totally understand your sentiments but remember this...All the appliances in your house that we use to make our life more "comfortable" are assembled in third world countries on assembly lines, who work hideously long hours for a pittance.

So where do you draw the line....money circulates in both clean and dirty transactions. It continues to move at random.

not a perfect world eh???

[Sir Why You Little 34,752]

not a perfect world eh???

Pretty much 36 yeah, i am with you in your sentiments, but when the Head of "Beyond Blue" is the same man who gave us the Crown Casino.

It is pretty hard not to have at least some dirty $$$ in your pocket.

Some People in the philippines i met last year were paid $20 for a 60 hour week..

[The Chazz 4,077]

Pretty much 36 yeah, i am with you in your sentiments, but when the Head of "Beyond Blue" is the same man who gave us the Crown Casino.

It is pretty hard not to have at least some dirty $$$ in your pocket.

Some People in the philippines i met last year were paid $20 for a 60 hour week..

But still managed to spend $1500 a week at Crown!

Very harsh on Crown WYL. I love the place and when I come back to visit family in Victoria, there's 2 places that I always have to attend - a Demon's game and Crown. No gambling problem, just think the whole Southbank experience is a great drawcard for the City, and for mine wouldn't be the same without the place with the big flames!

If Geelong stop being sponsored by Ford becuase of the road toll, then I think we should not be sponosred by a gambling agency. I don't recall them being sponsors back when Ox and Ward were playing.

[Sir Why You Little 34,752]

But still managed to spend $1500 a week at Crown!

Very harsh on Crown WYL. I love the place and when I come back to visit family in Victoria, there's 2 places that I always have to attend - a Demon's game and Crown. No gambling problem, just think the whole Southbank experience is a great drawcard for the City, and for mine wouldn't be the same without the place with the big flames!

If Geelong stop being sponsored by Ford becuase of the road toll, then I think we should not be sponosred by a gambling agency. I don't recall them being sponsors back when Ox and Ward were playing.

The Factory workers in the philippines have not heard of Crown Casino. The Factory Owners within the Philippines may well launder $$$ out here.

I Hate Crown and dislike what it stands for. Before it was built i would walk the streets of Melbourne until 3AM quite Happily...Now i do not go near the city at night.

IMO the problem started with Crown being 24 hours. South bank is great. Crown is not needed.

[Guest 36DD]

But still managed to spend $1500 a week at Crown!

Very harsh on Crown WYL. I love the place and when I come back to visit family in Victoria, there's 2 places that I always have to attend - a Demon's game and Crown. No gambling problem, just think the whole Southbank experience is a great drawcard for the City, and for mine wouldn't be the same without the place with the big flames!

If Geelong stop being sponsored by Ford becuase of the road toll, then I think we should not be sponosred by a gambling agency. I don't recall them being sponsors back when Ox and Ward were playing.

Have had a few friends visit from the UK, resulting in myself having lived ova there for 4 years, I always try and show off Melbourne as a city, not once have I taken one of my mates to the casino, nothing against the joint, just think we have so much more to offer as a city culturally, like gettin in a fight at 4am in the swnaston st maccas

Edited May 19, 2011 by 36DD

[Guest 36DD]

Pretty much 36 yeah, i am with you in your sentiments, but when the Head of "Beyond Blue" is the same man who gave us the Crown Casino.

It is pretty hard not to have at least some dirty $$$ in your pocket.

Some People in the philippines i met last year were paid $20 for a 60 hour week..

yeh, you can try and live your life as ethically or as fairly as possible but none of us, including myself, are squeaky clean, we are all part of the machine.

With your Philippines example, I for one am against slave labour in all its forms yet, as a consumer I am price sensitive which would see me opt for the cheaper alternative on most occasions.

[Sir Why You Little 34,752]

yeh, you can try and live your life as ethically or as fairly as possible but none of us, including myself, are squeaky clean, we are all part of the machine.

With your Philippines example, I for one am against slave labour in all its forms yet, as a consumer I am price sensitive which would see me opt for the cheaper alternative on most occasions.

Bingo....made in China. Inside the philippines all their appliances are made in india (Cheaper again)...As Pink Floyd said in 1975..."Welcome to the Machine"

[The Chazz 4,077]

The Factory workers in the philippines have not heard of Crown Casino. The Factory Owners within the Philippines may well launder $$$ out here.

I Hate Crown and dislike what it stands for. Before it was built i would walk the streets of Melbourne until 3AM quite Happily...Now i do not go near the city at night.IMO the problem started with Crown being 24 hours. South bank is great. Crown is not needed.

Can't blame this on Crown though. I feel more safe in the Southbank area than I do in any other part of the CBD.

We all have an opinion on Crown; yours is correct if you ask you, but if you ask me, mine is correct. So many people go there, so it has to make me right, but so many don't so it makes you right.

To be honest, the last couple of times I have been there I haven't even gambled. Just enjoy the atmosphere, and they have some good bars and eateries, and it's a good perve too!

[DemonDave 1,078]

Dont forget the money made from Poker machines at the Bentleigh and Leigh-Oak clubs.

I figure you're damned if you do damned if you dont with these type of things.

Morals quite often have to be put aside if it aids the survival of your club.

Look at Carlscum, they were in financial trouble, so the pokies King Bruce Mathieson went and stripped his machines

out of other clubs and put them directly into the Blues pubs. Should set them back onto financial

prosperous roads again before long.

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,762]

Well i'd luv for us to be in a position to not rely on it, and I guess I may be being a little idealistic.

Must say that i am envious of Barcelona's ability to provide unicef with naming right to their kit.

I didn't know that, that is brilliant. I think betting advertising as a whole should go the same way as cigarette advertising. The sheer amount of advertising must make it difficult for those who are trying to recover from this addiction.

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,762]

Morals quite often have to be put aside if it aids the survival of your club.

I think that's a scary thought. Pokie machines have not only resulted in people losing their families and jobs but an addiction can sometimes lead to suicide. To put this aside in favour of football or any other form of entertainment, doesn't sit well with me.

[Supermercado 2,646]

Funny Kennett always gets blamed for the Casino when it was Kirner who started the process rolling to try and climb out of a financial black hole.

Would rather we didn't have to take money from gambling but if it helps keep the place afloat then so be it. May as well go the league for being sponsored by an alcohol company if we're really going to push the moral highground.

Legalise it. Now that would be some sort of sponsor.

[Guest 36DD]

I didn't know that, that is brilliant. I think betting advertising as a whole should go the same way as cigarette advertising. The sheer amount of advertising must make it difficult for those who are trying to recover from this addiction.

Yeh mate, its the latest cash cow so to speak following the crackdown on cigarettes and alcohol. Gambling does untold damage to society and I feel it is a shame that the MFC is promoting it and am even more disappointed that it has allowed Betezy to use our nickname and colours in promotions. The influx of online gambling in football has been massive, you just have to look at how often it is spruiked in telecasts and at the games.

[Jaded No More 58,801]

To be honest, it is not the job of the MFC to be the moral compass of society.

Gambling will be advertised and available to people whether or not we are sponsored by a betting agency or not.

We are a business like any other, and we are concerned with the bottom line and so we should be. No problems with it at all.

[Bhima 0]

I think the question is certainly worth raising 36DD.

If I recall in my first post I lamented the seeming contradiction of having a pokie lease while having the founder of Reach as the president of the club.

I think a few points can be made

Gambling is an Australian pastime, and last year 80% of Australian placed a bet of some form. Gambling is legal and that won't change.

Pokies

From a purely economic perspective, the productivity commission has noted that gambling directly puts $11 Billion into the economy and is a sizeable portion of state govt revenue (nearing 10%). They have stated that gambling has a net positive effect on the economy...with one exception: Pokies.

The productivity commission (hardly a radical left-wing group) have identified that in relation to Pokies, the cost of problem gamblers on the community has a net deficit on the economy. They are supportive of Andrew Wilkie's bill which proposes that gamblers have to pre-commit to a certain amount that they will gamble before they begin, and cannot continue once they have reached that amount.

Although there are critics of pre-commitment, the fact that Pokie figureheads have been so outspoken against the proposal means that it will have an impact.

40% of all gambling revenue on pokies comes from problem gamblers. The pubs and businesses (and MFC) that are profiting from these machines do so at the cost of a small number of people whose lives have been ruined by their addiction.

Although the number of problem gamblers may not be enourmous (don't have the figures)ten people will be impacted by every one problem gambler - they steal, lie, cheat, decieve...not because they are bad people, but are usually trying to recover losses, and in the process lose more. The social impacts are magnified and shouldn't be underestimated.

Research published in The Age last year showed hard evidence that there is a direct link between rates of crime such as theft and burglery in areas that have high numbers of Pokies. While some may argue that the demographic make-up of a suburb with high Pokie numbers is likely to be of low socio-economic status (which they are) - the research showed an increase in those areas after Pokies were introduced.

It goes back to my original point - Melbourne is trying to establish itself in the city of Casey and build connections with the one of the fastest growing regions in Australia. This is a good thing. However, they also have Pokie licences in the city of Casey. Reaching out to a community while being complicit in a profit making venture that has a net social and economic deficit on the same community is clearly unstable moral ground.

The Wilkie bill has real potential impacts for the Demons. If revenue goes down, which it will, then the Dees economic forecasts go out the window. This means the economic argument for Pokies is weakened.

Gambling Advertising

In relation to the increase in gambling advertising - please read the Image Makers (1984) by William Meyers - more advertising will equal more gambling.

Personally, for a short while I enjoyed a bet on the horses until I realised I was no good at it. I was amazed, however, that even when I decided to stop, I would find it hard not to walk into a TAB if I happened past one. The point is, if there are more opportunities to gamble, people will gamble more.

Economists (Of the Jeff Kennett mould) argue that humans are rational and will make economic decisions in their best interest.

Behavioural economists will tell you, and prove to you, that when humans are emotionally aroused, they stop thinking rationally. People in their sober rational state will always agree that they should gamble less, lose weight, eat better, get exercise...but when they see the lights and hear the sounds, or when the feel hungry and walk past a cake shop...they move out of their sober rational state and into an emotional state that they cannot rationally control.

If you are interested in this stuff read Predictably Irrational by Dan Ariely. It is both hilarious and quite astonishing.

Let's have horse racing and casinos - let's keep gambling out of local comunities and stop advertising to an audience full of children and in the process normalize a practice that has the potential to ruin lives.

Lastly - what we buy sends signals to those who produce what we buy. It is impossible to consume ethicically all the time. If you buy Fair Trade, it makes a difference. If you buy RSPCA approved eggs, it makes a difference. If you buy environmentally sound products, it amkes a difference. Producers don't care about the ethics (generally), they care about what people are buying and will change if that's what the consumer wants.

PS - those gas plumes at Crown are the quivalent to one year of gas use for a household. But they are pretty, and certainly get me emotionally aroused.

Cheers

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[Guest 36DD]

Funny Kennett always gets blamed for the Casino when it was Kirner who started the process rolling to try and climb out of a financial black hole.

Would rather we didn't have to take money from gambling but if it helps keep the place afloat then so be it. May as well go the league for being sponsored by an alcohol company if we're really going to push the moral highground.

Legalise it. Now that would be some sort of sponsor.

Yeh mate, I realise that there are many institutions receiving funds from companies which have questionable products, alcohol and the AFL, the libs getting funding from Tobacco companies, we could go on and on.

The OP was to find out how Melbourne members felt about our association with Betezy and the use of our club colours and nickname to in effect disguise a product that can have negative consequence for some who use it.

[Guest 36DD]

To be honest, it is not the job of the MFC to be the moral compass of society.

Gambling will be advertised and available to people whether or not we are sponsored by a betting agency or not.

We are a business like any other, and we are concerned with the bottom line and so we should be. No problems with it at all.

That really is a disappointing viewpoint however speaks volumes about what we value in life....the almighty $$$$....we will put aside virtuous human emotions such as love, compassion and concern for others welfare all for some coin. I totally understand that it is pretty much part and parcel of the world we live in, I find it disappointing none the less. I am fortunate that I have my vices all under control, save for the odd moments when you need to cut loose, but I really feel for those who cannot call stumps when things get out of hand and business such as Betezy prey on these individuals.

[Ned 156]

Gambling is a menace and the ease with which people can bet now is just scary -- the adds on TV and the spruiking by top former sportsmen add to the whole thing. So, yep, I would definitely prefer Melbourne to sever this connection. Australians like a bet and that's fine. But the gambling industry is getting out of hand.

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,762]

That really is a disappointing viewpoint however speaks volumes about what we value in life....the almighty $$$$....we will put aside virtuous human emotions such as love, compassion and concern for others welfare all for some coin. I totally understand that it is pretty much part and parcel of the world we live in, I find it disappointing none the less. I am fortunate that I have my vices all under control, save for the odd moments when you need to cut loose, but I really feel for those who cannot call stumps when things get out of hand and business such as Betezy prey on these individuals.

Exactly right mate.