AFL 360

[1858 285]

Our forwards dont do a press because either the ball is kicked into our forward fifty as a "bail out" kick from half back due to an oppositions pressure, therefore, the opposition defenders outling the zone rack up uncontested possessions. You cant apply forward pressure if the forwards are nowhere near the ball.

Our forward 50 entries are an issue in itself but at opposition kick outs we don't press them. We don't even man up. I think someone on 360 made a point of how easy opposition teams go coast to coast on us.

Secondly, our forwards are not fit enough to apply pressure. Wonna and Jurrah simply do not have the tank to do it for the whole match. Reckon the sub rule has really limited our ability to hide unfit players.

wrt a forward press specifically, you won't be fit enough to execute it if you aren't drilled to execute it at training. I'm not saying that we don't train to exert pressure but we clearly have had no emphasis on a forward press or even manning up. The practice game against Essendon rang alarm bells for some people when they pressed us up and we had no answer and it hasn't got any better since.

The sub rule is actually an interesting parameter wrt how we build from defence. We give up so much easy meterage to the opposition and then work our butts off working the transition - a cardinal sin any time let alone 2011.

[Guest 36DD]

Well if it is that simple, what is wrong with the Melbourne Demons? If it is that simple, Bailey should already be gone. Fact of the matter is it isn't that simple. How many people are on a basketball court? How many players on a soccer field? Your theory of 'simplicity' just does not add up.

The funny thing is that you are saying that King and MacClure don't know what they are on about, and then the next moment you are saying that we don't play correct tactically to beat the press, but that is pretty much the basic explanation of what the two idiots on the box had to say.

Mate it is that simple, please google occams razor. There are five players on a Bball and eleven on a soccer pitch. Could argue that given the size of the Bball court and having 10 players all surrounding the ball and involved in the play it is the more congested of the sports that I mentioned. Any reason why Pendlebury is such a good midfielder???

The two idiots on 360, you are being far too generous btw, based on what you have posted, seem to believe that defense beats a press when the opposite is true. The only way to beat the press is as I have described, by offensive tactics. Defense comes into it following a turnover. Transitional defense is an area where we are definately lacking.

[Guest 36DD]

Our forward 50 entries are an issue in itself but at opposition kick outs we don't press them. We don't even man up. I think someone on 360 made a point of how easy opposition teams go coast to coast on us.

Confused by this, we currently do operate a press. Why is it that numerous times when the ball is kicked into our forward 50 there are none of our forwards leading out at the ball? It is because they have pressed up. Secondly, you talk about manning up, this does not make sense because the press does not involve manning up, it involves guarding space.

Richmond went coast to coast against Collingwood a number of times in the 3rd quarter during their match a few rounds back. This will happen when teams beat the press, it wont just happen with us.

What you have are past footballers sprouting crap just so the can grab a paycheck. The game has changed so much and it is no longer a throw it on your boot and take a grab type game. These so called experts are left wanting because the game now draws heavily from basketball and soccer.

[beelzebub 23,383]

Gee..I wonder if our lack of forward fifities is in any way corrolated to our you beaut game plan that waits for the ball to cross the center before attempting to repel it back to our goals. This afford the opposition to get momentum and leverage through the midfield..

We dont have a press...we have little actual pressure at all we just hope to get it moving quickly.. Just a shade one dimensional and easily shut down....and thats what happens.

[Demonic Ascent 0]

MacClure is of the opinion that due to who our next six games are against we can really only expect to win two and that would be enough to effect a change at Melbourne.

I disagree with this comment. Why would losing 4 of our next 6 mean Bailey gets the chop? The angst by the supporters since last Thursday was not due to losing in Perth it was due to our gameplan being exposed and our players playing inept football with no thought, heart or skills.

I would say that if our team shows improvement in our gameplan and structures over the next 6 weeks, the players lift their intensity and get off to good starts, they hunt in packs and work hard for each other and run until they're on the sidelines hurling like Ben Cousins in his heyday but we still manage to lose every game the supporters will understand that we are improving and developing just not getting the runs on the board at the moment.

If we play insipid football with no apparent gameplan and no one forward of the ball with players skirting the packs there will be heat on the coach.

The anger since last Thursday is about more than the win/loss record. Most of us understand we are still young and developing we just want to see improvement but improvement can occur within games it is not necessarily the outcome of those games. I think most supporters were unhappy with our performances against Brisbane and Gold Coast even though we won those games and this was due to our performance and the way we played. Similarly most supporters were happy with the effort we showed against the Pies on both occasions last year well as against the Dogs on that wet Friday even though we didn't come away with the points. It was due to the commitment of our players and the way they represented the club.

Of course as we develop the results will become all important, but while we are in the developing stages the supporters want to see evidence the side is improving and working towards that elusive number 13.

EDIT: I should add that this doesn't mean that heat will not or should not come onto Bailey. If we keep serving up the slop we've dished up so far this year (with the exception of the Sydney game and one quarter against the Hawks) then Bailey's head should well and truly be on the platter and we should be doing anything in our power to get Roos to coach us next year or failing that possibly a Malthouse. I just think looking only at wins/losses is far too simplistic.

Edited May 4, 2011 by Demonic Ascent

[1858 285]

Confused by this, we currently do operate a press. Why is it that numerous times when the ball is kicked into our forward 50 there are none of our forwards leading out at the ball? It is because they have pressed up.

Do you actually know what a forward press is?

Secondly, you talk about manning up, this does not make sense because the press does not involve manning up, it involves guarding space.

Indeed they are not the same thing, hence my use of the word "or":

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

we clearly have had no emphasis on a forward press or even manning up

ie we don't press with a zone or man up at opposition kick outs. The opposition have too much space too often and work the flanks on us with relative ease from kick outs.

Edited May 4, 2011 by 1858

[Mono 455]

............

The anger since last Thursday is about more than the win/loss record. Most of us understand we are still young and developing we just want to see improvement but improvement can occur within games it is not necessarily the outcome of those games. I think most supporters were unhappy with our performances against Brisbane and Gold Coast even though we won those games and this was due to our performance and the way we played. Similarly most supporters were happy with the effort we showed against the Pies on both occasions last year well as against the Dogs on that wet Friday even though we didn't come away with the points. It was due to the commitment of our players and the way they represented the club.

Of course as we develop the results will become all important, but while we are in the developing stages the supporters want to see evidence the side is improving and working towards that elusive number 13.

Good post.

[Demonic Ascent 0]

Confused by this, we currently do operate a press. Why is it that numerous times when the ball is kicked into our forward 50 there are none of our forwards leading out at the ball? It is because they have pressed up.

I think you've got the cart before the horse here. We have no players in our forward half because we have flooded our backline. The press would be putting all our players in our forward line, the flood is putting all our players in our backline.

[Geddy Lee 582]

Let's win a centre clearance and lay a tackle or two. Then we'll worry about how terrible our game plan is.

[Eth 4]

Think you will find that we weren't the only team that collingwood suffered the yips against, think the stats had them down as one of the most inaccurate teams in history. From memory, it was put down to their gameplan of hugging the boundary line and always kicking for goal from the pockets. It was a major query heading into the finals.

We made their yips worse, from memory we kept them along the boundary and forcing them to kick from the pockets. Their plan is much like some soccer teams: run it along the wing until you're near the goals and cross it in. We were good against them because we were able to turn it over when they did centre it in and we rebounded through the corridor.

[beelzebub 23,383]

Actually in a basketball analogy a forward press does indeed look to use offensive pressure to a man not the zone.. that would be a forward zone structure not a press.. Its not semantics theres a difference. The whole idea of a BBall forward pressure is to deny opportunities ...to take away options and frustrate the ball handler into an error.The very same idea can be applied in footy but its man to man ...You might be working off the man to some degree and this is where some will think theyre guarding a space...theyre not...or ought not be. They have to deny the back a place to run to..Again this isnt guarding a space its the man and/or his options.. Some will get this..some wont..I accept this..Any which way its offensive pressure. And we know jack about doing that.

The problem with all this is there is SO much space on a footy field.

[Nicho 1]

I just don't understand how much we suck at laying tackles and f50 pressure when we have Jurrah, Wooza, Flash, Jetta, Bennell & Maric on our list....

Almost like if Jordie isnt there to lead the way with tackling no one cares...

[beelzebub 23,383]

simple...they probably arent drilled in it...

[Guest 36DD]

I think you've got the cart before the horse here. We have no players in our forward half because we have flooded our backline. The press would be putting all our players in our forward line, the flood is putting all our players in our backline.

I would have considered that a forward press as it is the forwards leaving their position to zone defend. On the flipside, the forward press as the status quo has it involves crowding the forward line on the opponents kickout.

[beelzebub 23,383]

we surrender that opportunity ...stupid isnt it

[Real Demon 232]

I love the way some hang onto the Collingwood games last year like we achieved something. We lost and drew! The last game was nearly 12 months ago!!!!!! Forget that crap....... we're talking about now. They aren't the same side we ran close then and neither are we.

We are the team that has been downright humiliated in 2 games so far this year.......made to look completely inept, and playing a game style Bailey started with this group years ago.

And this 2nd quarter crap against the Hawks as some ray of light is a mirage............watch it again........I have.........it wasn't us playing over the Hawks, but their complete lack of intensity in that qtr that made us look like rockstars! They played in the 2nd half, and what sad pathetic joke that was.

There are more reality pills on the way............King and McLure were right on the money tonight.

We are in trouble.

[Guest Rojik of the Arctic]

simple...they probably arent drilled in it...

Simple... for some reason they stopped listening to the coaches over summer. They've been drilled but they just look like they really don't care that much at the moment.

[beelzebub 23,383]

if youre not actually executing such a press as part of your game style then you wont be drilled ad nauseum in it. it becomes a mindset...if your told to apply an attack from half back youve already , in your mind , allowed them to get there. This is the crux of many observers chagrin in all this. So we attempt to zone up to kickins etc but theyre already anticpating the likelyhood it will come back..later. Its plain dumb Its giving the oppo a free hit...every time.

[Guest Rojik of the Arctic]

if your told to apply an attack from half back youve already , in your mind , allowed them to get there.

But Bails said the object was to play the game in our F50. So what is the story? What is he doing?

[beelzebub 23,383]

sorry for whoring...

to continue the bball analogy... The rteam should be fluent in all manners of the game..i.e presses...zones.. preferential structures.. plan b structures ( due to injury or matchup ) etc etc.. You then dig into this bag of tricks according either to instruction or circumstance but you need flexibility and an armory of differing tactics. Currently we have , it seems but one,and when that falls flat...we're f@#%!d !!!

In Bball you dont just play one way...you morph during a game according to the ebb and flow...according to whos getting the upper hand. Not all moves suit all moments. Theres no one sie fits all way of playing...and yet we try it... just genius isnt it. This is at teh foundation of the ire many are directing towards the FD..esp the coach. Melb is playing dumb footy. and in all likelyhood because theyre told to play that way.

[Triple Jack 13]

I was disgusted at the effort performed by the boys on thursday as we all were, but i think we need to all calm down and let things pan out for a couple of weeks before we start calling for Baileys head and a total revamp of our game plan.

Firstly those saying we have gone downhill, i agree with you but i think (hope) it is just short term. Firstly look at our team, we have lost Jnr who is a great leader, very hard at the ball and was in our best 10 players last year. The same can be said for Scully and McKenzie, who as well as being great contested players also proved to be classy. Those two were clearly in our best 10 last year. Then you have Frawley who had a serious injury putting him behind the pace, and there is no doubt he was in our top 2-3 players. All these players are great competitors and have very good tanks, which are two areas we have lacked in. So when these players come in (obviously not jnr) and get form our total pressure and intensity around the ground will improve.

Another point i would like to make is that i feel the fixture hasn't helped us so far, this is due to the fact we have had easy games at the wrong times as well as being to early in the year. In our first game we played reasonably well against a good side. We then came up against a top 4-6 side and got smashed. The thing was the next week we played Brisbane so the players didn't really have to lift and make a stand (like we did last year against collingwood). We played poorly but got 4 points and all seemed good. Then there was GC who we smashed again not playing with great intensity throughout the match. This saw us going into the bye in the 8 without playing well. We then all know what happened against the eagles. But what we needed before the bye was a hard game to really show the boys where we were at and if it was a loss make them keen to really work hard in the break to improve.

So know the key is to see how they can respond in the next month and my feeling is that we will respond well

[rpfc 28,769]

I would trust the views of many posters on here when it comes to the Dees than King and McClure...

And I would trust the views of many posters on here when it comes to footy in general than Mark Robinson...

He's a forka nd spoon journalist who would give Word Grammar and Spelling and the Editors at the Hun quite a workout...

On footy, he is a waste of skin and fat...

[Hannabal 4]

I would trust the views of many posters on here when it comes to the Dees than King and McClure...

And I would trust the views of many posters on here when it comes to footy in general than Mark Robinson...

King is an excellent analyst and gave sound reasoning to his views. Did you watch the show ?

Roos has expressed surprise at Melbourne's gameplan.

Brad Scott mentioned on Footy Insider that we setup very differently and haven't embraced the forward press. You may think that's a good thing.

Lyon has expressed concerns.

Gerard Healy wrote an article in March which was highly critical of our gameplan.

But you prefer the views of anonymous Melbourne supporters that post on the internet ?

Btw, who are these well informed posters ? And what do you mean "trust" ? It's not a matter of "trust".

[Kento80 83]

King is an excellent analyst and gave sound reasoning to his views. Did you watch the show ?

Roos has expressed surprise at Melbourne's gameplan.

Brad Scott mentioned on Footy Insider that we setup very differently and haven't embraced the forward press. You may think that's a good thing.

Lyon has expressed concerns.

Gerard Healy wrote an article in March which was highly critical of our gameplan.

But you prefer the views of anonymous Melbourne supporters that post on the internet ?

Btw, who are these well informed posters ? And what do you mean "trust" ? It's not a matter of "trust".

Agreed Hannabal. I thought King approached this excellently and explained his position very soundly. I asked a previous poster who howled this down if he had watched it and he didn't reply. Was quite a good assessment from two men much more experienced than probably anyone (and definitely most) on here.

[H_T 3,049]

I watched 360 last night and I concur with Hannabal re: King's analytical dissecting of Melbourne's KPI's and how they struggle against the press. I thought King gave a balanced assessment, which focussed on the positives such as the clearances (I think we're 3rd overall from what he said) and indicated when we have the ball from clearances we do okay with it. It's when we're in the opposition's F50 where we struggle most, and it appears we haven't addressed the press like 15 other sides have. (pretty sure it was us, Port & GC) We haven't put in place the "mechanics" (which is what King said) like all other sides have to counterract the press when the opposition push up on us.

King also identified (which is obvious) that Melbourne has more first round draft picks than any other team in the AFL currently on it's list.

As for MacLure, he was quite damning of the coaches. He was scathing of some of the players, but also the coaches and their structures in setting up. He noted that Collingwood has had this style in place for 18 months, every other team is applying it and tweaking it with tactics (ie. the Bulldogs on the weekend) to push Collingwood's weakness (if they have any).

360 and AFL Insider are quite good shows and I find the discussion quite informative.