MacDonald For Whom?

[1858 285]

A lot of it comes down to our options - and to our willingness to take a risk with our last pick. If we get as many injuries as we had last year - and he stays fit - we'll all look back in 12 months time and complement BP and IH for some very astute recruiting/ list management. If Strauss, Cheney,Bennell, McNamara and etc etc all develop he might have to spend some time at Casey. How's your crystal ball?

Fair point, there are no guarantees in footy or life for that matter which is kind of why insurance is important I think but again it is not just about next year. To me, Cheney won't be a running defender but I may end up wrong. McNamara on the other hand is anyone's guess at this stage. Bennell is a 179cm small defender who may get some mid-time but would benefit by having JM beside him. Strauss hasn't even played a game yet and an experienced player like JM could help him too. If all those players come good then great but how likely is that really to happen such that they are all better options than JM in our 22?

I see JM as a conservative pick with possibly a big upside in how our other players benefit rather than a risk but I guess it depends on how you look at the situation.

In any case it can't hurt to be philosophical. Hawthorn just forked out picks 25 and 41 for Josh Gibson (and 69) who is 7 months older than JM. Gibson may be slightly ahead as a defender but there isn't that much in it and they play similar roles (although I suspect Hawthorn will give him some heavy duty tasks next year). Hawthorn had a hole in their defence and probably are still in their premiership window so were keen but we virtually get a similar commodity for free so from that pov I am quite content.

We so easily forget that every year we are hammered with injuries and or players in and out of form.

Reality - Junior will miss many games this year as his body slows down.

Grimes will be freed up to take part in learning how to be part of our mid field.

Bruce may even be able to take some time up forward. Remember the days Bruce was able to do that!

Strauss doesnt have to be under pressure if he is struggling to come on at anytime through the year.

Its a long long year - reality is we may only have our 'best' team on the ground for anything from 0-22 rounds......Our young players cant and wont play every week. We need hardened bodies to be able to maintain consistancy in performance and compete.

I agree with the gist of all of that and I think Wellman would be happy to have a player like JM there to rally the younger players when things get tough.

If Davey and Green can spend less time floating back in defence through necessity and more in attack then that would be a massive plus too.

[rpfc 28,779]

This was a poll to get to a very particular point.

Of course it isn't a helpful poll, but I wished to nip a particular point of view in the bud before it became a relevant discussion point.

POLL ANALYSIS

Joel MacDonald, according to Land posters, plays a position/role completely different to Jared Rivers.

Jared Rivers is not threatened by the recruitment of Joel MacDonald.

That is all.

Edited November 21, 2009 by rpfc

[sylvinator 96]

Joel McDonald has agreed to a 2 year deal according to Caro and has started training with the demons.

I believe he is a handy inclusion and fills a definite hole in our list.

McDonald is a medium sized defender who can also offer some rebound from defence.

The only other players we have in that position are:

- Cheney (promising but quite limited... not huge upside)

- Bell (dump)

- Bartram (a tagger/midfielder really)

As we can see the current options in this position are not great.

We have plenty of KP defenders: Warnock, Frawley, Martin, Rivers, Garland, McNamara

We also have plenty of options for midfielder type options who can play as attacking rebounders but aren't defenders: Strauss, Bennel, Davey etc

Now we have a medium sized defender who can shut down the oppositions medium forwards!

[beelzebub 23,383]

This was a poll to get to a very particular point.

Of course it isn't a helpful poll, but I wished to nip a particular point of view in the bud before it became a relevant discussion point.

POLL ANALYSIS

Joel MacDonald, according to Land posters, plays a position/role completely different to Jared Rivers.

Jared Rivers is not threatened by the recruitment of Joel MacDonald.

That is all.

lol...you conspire a poll to provide a result you wanted to justify an opinion you have,,,nothing more...nothing less.

You cant say that Rivers position is safe purely off the back of this. if Joel plays well as there may be a push from the FD to change the style of play in the back end . Rivers is currently only just making the grade in effectivelness. He is also rather one dimensional . When fully fit and in the right frame of mind thats ok., but his form is up and down. A player of a different style may offer more. Now that too is only an opinion..

Weve been over most of this before...so wont bother repeating it all.. Suffice to say... your justification of arguments based upon this poll are a big stretch

[rpfc 28,779]

lol...you conspire a poll to provide a result you wanted to justify an opinion you have,,,nothing more...nothing less.

You cant say that Rivers position is safe purely off the back of this. if Joel plays well as there may be a push from the FD to change the style of play in the back end . Rivers is currently only just making the grade in effectivelness. He is also rather one dimensional . When fully fit and in the right frame of mind thats ok., but his form is up and down. A player of a different style may offer more. Now that too is only an opinion..

Weve been over most of this before...so wont bother repeating it all.. Suffice to say... your justification of arguments based upon this poll are a big stretch

I will be devious....

Let's just say this: the idea that this poll leads to anything useful is about as large a stretch as stating the position of Jared Rivers isn't safe due to the arrival of Joel MacDonald.

[H_T 3,049]

Correct.

(in a non-arrogant way)

[beelzebub 23,383]

The foundation of this poll and any extrapolated views are about as sound as the old Dave Allen joke:

Recent evidence shows that 30% of car accidents are caused by drink driving....therefore 70% are caused by those that havent had a drink... In this light.... drink more and drive safer !!

[1858 285]

I don't know where the Rivers arguement originally came from but could posters possibly be coming from different angles here?

Is Rivers specifically threatened? - I would assume not as he plays a different role.

Is Rivers indirectly threatened? - from the pov that any defender is threatened with more competition as Bailey has another type of option now then perhaps.

Either way, another question to consider: After his first significant season back, do you expect Rivers to go up a notch next year?

[beelzebub 23,383]

Either way, another question to consider: After his first significant season back, do you expect Rivers to go up a notch next year?

some valid notion in early bit was the latter as my prefered standpoint. I digress slightly

It would be hoped that Rivers will pick it up. A form shown earlier in his career is that which would be most pleasing. He can play..its the reality that he's been way short of his own bar that for me presents his conundrum .

question upon the question.. by up a notch...do you mean from where he is...or from where he was. I.e can he take his game to new heights ..or simply regain lost form ?

[45HG 1,559]

Rivers isn't in my best back 6.

Adding a player who could possibly slot into our best 6 would only put his spot further into jeopardy IMO.

[Trisul 664]

..old Dave Allen joke...

Thanks 'bub. Will have to dig out some tapes later tonight.

[beelzebub 23,383]

Rivers isn't in my best back 6.

Adding a player who could possibly slot into our best 6 would only put his spot further into jeopardy IMO.

thankyou...succintly put.. it not about one on one competition..its about makeup/balance and effectiveness. JM might tip the scales and if someone has to be left off it might well be Riv.. Hence my original suggestion ages ago.. he might want to do something.

[1858 285]

by up a notch...do you mean from where he is...or from where he was. I.e can he take his game to new heights ..or simply regain lost form ?

Probably both but more specifically from where he is as that is the capacity he is being condidered in atm in the thread I would have thought.

[beelzebub 23,383]

Probably both but more specifically from where he is as that is the capacity he is being condidered in atm in the thread I would have thought.

just asking I should think he will have to to maintain a position in the back 6. If he cant...and the others progress...it ( the game ) will pass him by. Simply an observation.

He hasnt had a brilliant run with injury...but I do wish him well.

[rpfc 28,779]

Rivers isn't in my best back 6.

Adding a player who could possibly slot into our best 6 would only put his spot further into jeopardy IMO.

I have always seen Rivers as more value when we are a better team. When our midfield gets better, when those around get better, and when the backline sees less ball.

And when they do I want one of the best readers of the play in the AFL to mark those, now indiscriminate (thanks to the harder working midfield), kicks that come into our backline, leaving his man to help Frawley and Warnock who are on the best two defenders, and then handing it off to Garland, Grimes, McDonald, Bruce, or MacDonald to rebound.

[1858 285]

just asking I should think he will have to to maintain a position in the back 6. If he cant...and the others progress...it ( the game ) will pass him by. Simply an observation.

He hasnt had a brilliant run with injury...but I do wish him well.

If he doesn't get a spot in the starting 6 does that necessarily mean he becomes a liability? I agree in principle that less game time will not hold him in good stead with the direction of the game and if anything he has been caught out a little with the last injury with game style but the very nature is he was coming from injury and was builidng up his own form first.

I have always seen Rivers as more value when we are a better team. When our midfield gets better, when those around get better, and when the backline sees less ball.

Even though you could apply that to most players, I do see your point. The only question then is during this period of the team improving will Rivers be a passenger (in relativity) if he isn't prominent enough to help the team advance to that point?

And when they do I want one of the best readers of the play in the AFL to mark those, now indiscriminate (thanks to the harder working midfield), kicks that come into our backline, leaving his man to help Frawley and Warnock who are on the best two defenders, and then handing it off to Garland, Grimes, McDonald, Bruce, or MacDonald to rebound.

I think you make a very good case here of where Rivers should be of optimal value to the team, having said that he still has much room for improvement IMO in his own form but hopefully he will.

_______

Note, I am making neutral discussion here.

[45HG 1,559]

I think one of the most crucial elements of a Premiership winning team is to have a solid and settled backline.

At the moment I don't see Rivers fitting in there. Obviously there are many examples of teams with variations of defences and that's fine, it's just not my preferred backline situation.

[rpfc 28,779]

I think one of the most crucial elements of a Premiership winning team is to have a solid and settled backline.

At the moment I don't see Rivers fitting in there. Obviously there are many examples of teams with variations of defences and that's fine, it's just not my preferred backline situation.

We will see, my good friend.

We will see...

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Joel McDonald has agreed to a 2 year deal according to Caro and has started training with the demons.

I believe he is a handy inclusion and fills a definite hole in our list.

McDonald is a medium sized defender who can also offer some rebound from defence.

Garland and Frawley can both provide those roles and have played that role in the past.

If he frees up a player to play elsewhere to the benefit of the side then fine.

[beelzebub 23,383]

something to note..or discuss.. Rivers was born of the danniher era. Ol farmer Neale had his ideas of what that backline could and might be.. When fit..Rivers was a highly regarded component of it and suited the danners manner. Come forward a few years and we have Jared, unfortunately not able to replicate his finer form ( though arguably improving ) and a new coach with differing style of makeup for that back 6. if for no other reason than much of its personnel has been overhauled. The fit isnt what it was. The item that concerns me ..and I saw it more often I appreciate at Zebby land when he was playing the Magoos is that Jared ( like anyone I suppose ) can get very niggles and frustrated when he cant do what he wants to do ( in the sense of ability and fitness ) Ive seen this result in sloppy play and lack of timing. = turnovers ...and /or poor delivery.

If Joel comes on board as we suspect we'll probably have to reserve much judgement on all this until we actually see the fit of him in that back 6. I just suspect he has the zip thats Jared ( to date ) has lost...and might offer more in that light. You cant see Frawley or Warnock being displaced. garland if staying down the back is an auto starter. If grimes doesnt get to the middle straight away( which is what I think will pan out ) and Junior is playing the flanker you start to have a bit of a squeeze. thats just how its seems to me.

[Darren Cuthbertson 0]

No 1858 - that's fine ....and your thinking is sound ( and perhaps more realistic than we sometimes tend to be at this time of the year)

A lot of it comes down to our options - and to our willingness to take a risk with our last pick. If we get as many injuries as we had last year - and he stays fit - we'll all look back in 12 months time and complement BP and IH for some very astute recruiting/ list management. If Strauss, Cheney,Bennell, McNamara and etc etc all develop he might have to spend some time at Casey. How's your crystal ball?

You have the best crystal balls out there Hoopla!

[hoopla 418]

You have the best crystal balls out there Hoopla!

Sorry Darren... I'm not sharing them with you!

[Strong Willed 0]

If he does come to Melbourne, we already have a Jmac who we call Junior, does that mean we call him Junior's junior?

I'll be calling him BIG MAC!

[DemonDan... 77]

wtf??

Do you want to know mums maiden name as well..

I take it RPFC, youll be presenting the results to the National Census?

-He'll probably start the year, off half-back, as he was in BL top disposals (marks too from memory) and played most games in 09'

May even push up in thru the centre as our young midfielders develop..

and then most likely get overtaken by better upcoming players and find himself in the position he's in now anyway-

[... 11]

Let's also not overlook the depth required to make a good team. At any point in time, one or two of our backmen will be injured if history is a guide. It is more likely to be Joel MacDonald one week, Rivers the next, than it is to be a toss up b/w those two or any other.

FCS, people are including Garland in the backline as though his stress fracture will miraculously heal and he'll not sustain the usual string of minor injuries on his way back to consistent football.

They'll all play plenty of football, and the weeks where one is injured will not hurt us as is has previously.

Big smiles people, please....