Gary Lyon Coaching Journey Starts

[Scully The Tank Engine 0]

>Maybe he also thought at the time the list was in disarray and would of liked to help Melbournefc appoint someone with good development experience with kids and who'd love to teach young kids just into the system (Ie. Bailey), before he made a move. Who knows? Maybe he thought this process was a little too hard for him, let someone else do the hard yards. Let Bailey bring them up to speed, get the quality players in by refining the list, a few priority picks or 1st draft choices, mould them a little first - get 20-30 games under the belt and have them cherry ripe for G.Lyon to take over and get all the accolades.

I guess that was my concern. I don't really know what his intentions are tbh, but i'm sure he'd love to coach us. Who wouldn't want to coach our list in 2010 and beyond?? It'd be great if he could scout for us in the AIS and in other development programs. Dean thinks its a great idea actually...

But Bailey's been doing the hard yards, and I think he deserves to be around when it all starts to come into fruition. Gary would be an asset for any club or development program he worked with...but I think Dean deserves a 2 year extension to show us what he can do with a playing list that bears little resemblance to the one he took over in 07', and hopefully the media circus doesn't kick into gear when we're 4 and 7 at the halfway point of next season...

[Hannabal 4]

But Bailey's been doing the hard yards, and I think he deserves to be around when it all starts to come into fruition.

I'm sure that I have more time for Bailey than our friend Brockstars, but this "deserve" business doesn't cut it with me. I'm sure that you're just one of many that hold this view btw, but I want my club to win a flag. If the club thinks in a year or two's time that Bailey is the man to take them there then well and good, but if they think that someone else is better equipped then I'd expect a change, no matter how unfair, or whether some people believe that Bailey "deserved" a further chance or not.

It's about the club. And it's about a flag.

[Scully The Tank Engine 0]

I'm sure that I have more time for Bailey than our friend Brockstars, but this "deserve" business doesn't cut it with me. I'm sure that you're just one of many that hold this view btw, but I want my club to win a flag. If the club thinks in a year or two's time that Bailey is the man to take them there then well and good, but if they think that someone else is better equipped then I'd expect a change, no matter how unfair, or whether some people believe that Bailey "deserved" a further chance or not.

It's about the club. And it's about a flag.

Well, what 'more' could have Dean done in the 2 years he's had so far? Who else would have done a better job with the rabble he inherited at the end of 07'??

It doesn't look good because we are losing, but we aren't winning because we are carrying too many dud players and too much youth...

I'm just saying, give the man a chance to see what he can do with a list that's his own. It's the only thing that's fair...

[LITTLE STINGA 1]

Surely by now you realise that Bailey has half a squad to choose from and is under clear instructions to win no more than 4 games. Mission accomplished.

Surely you must realise that this has nothing to do with this year. It's all about next year, if we don't improve significantly to being at least out of the bottom 4 with around 8 wins then I think Bailey will really be under the pump and his last 2 seasons definately won't help his cause and now with Lyon suddenly interested in coaching there will be no coach under the pump more than Bailey in 2010.

Yes I do think Walls and Healy have no idea. I think they are the 2 worst special comments men in the country.

[Demon3 2,541]

Gazz'z name will come up when anything melbourne is mentioned..

For what it's worth, i think Bailey has done everything that we should have expected. I beleive that one of the main selling points of his interview was that he said he is prepared to lose and lose alot in the present in order to start winning and winning alot in the future. Good on him, he read the play well. Thats why i think you cannot judge him until seasons end next year.

Gains would want to have been made, otherwise he will feel pressure, it's part of the natural order in AFL.

While we all have different opinions, i still think its great we can voice them. God i love my club and really, success will be for us and it will be worth waiting for.

Peace!

[Hannabal 4]

Well, what 'more' could have Dean done in the 2 years he's had so far? Who else would have done a better job with the rabble he inherited at the end of 07'??

What has this question got to do with what I posted ?

[two sheds jackson 3]

You're talking about skills as a footballer and using this as a guide to whether someone may or may not be able to coach. You're doing the very thing that you're accusing others of doing.

Not exactly. I'm saying there is a strong correlation between accomplished -but not especially skilled- footballers and highly successful coaches, and suggesting that there's probably some rhyme and reason to it. That's not the same thing as saying, for instance, that clubs should consider excellent football skills as a negative trait when searching for a coach. My explanation was pretty simplistic (and I admitted so in the post), basically because my contention itself was a pretty general one. As I said, it would be equally stupid of me to argue that because Lyon was a talented player he wont be a good coach. All I'm saying is, people who want Lyon as coach based purely on their fond memories of his playing days would do well to take into account that traditionally, it is not players of his ilk that make the best coaches.

You even say "by all reports Malthouse, Sheedy and Matthews were never blessed with anything resembling the skills of a Buckley or even a Lyon". You have to be kidding. Matthews was probably the best player I've ever seen and it wasn't just because he was tough, his skills were superb. I know that you never saw him play, so it's best to not comment when you don't know.

Fair enough. I did take care to say "by all reports", but I guess that's the risk of making an argument based on hearsay; you'll come off looking like a goose if you've been fed wrong information, or if you haven't been listening properly, so I'll wear that. That said, my point still stands that recently, most of the better coaches were not the most remarkably skilled footballers. Even if you don't think it's a very important correlation, would you agree that it exists?

... that's patent rubbish. They say he'll be a good coach because he was an exceptional captain, a fantastic leader of men that will be instantly respected by any playing group, and just about the best public and private speaker that you'll ever hear...

I touched on this with my point about an inspirational personality not being enough, in itself, to make a good coach. I agree that he's a good speaker and an inspirational figure, and that's great. Now, can he come up with a premiership-winning structure? Can he maintain a productive working relationship with a board, a coaching panel, a playing list and a football department who will all, at times, have different ideas about how to do things? There are a whole host of other factors equally as important as his undoubted leadership and oratory skills, in which -having never sat on a coaching panel- he has not demonstrated. He is completely unproven in any of the practicalities of coaching.

[Hannabal 4]

I touched on this with my point about an inspirational personality not being enough, in itself, to make a good coach. I agree that he's a good speaker and an inspirational figure, and that's great. Now, can he come up with a premiership-winning structure? Can he maintain a productive working relationship with a board, a coaching panel, a playing list and a football department who will all, at times, have different ideas about how to do things? There are a whole host of other factors equally as important as his undoubted leadership and oratory skills, in which -having never sat on a coaching panel- he has not demonstrated. He is completely unproven in any of the practicalities of coaching.

You said that he was considered a likely prospect "simply because he was a talented footballer".

It was wrong.

[old55 23,024]

Knights veterans are far better quality and still performing - save Lucas. He was hardly going to pension off Lloyd and Fletcher, and nor did he need to.

I'm not privvy to Bailey's interviews. I'm not sure that he would have talked down the list, but more so discussed his strategy moving forward. He didn't need to be a rocket scientist to realise that most of our veterans had had it. You knew it, I knew it, he knew it, and the club knew it. If he'd suggested otherwise he wouldn't have got a look in.

Essendon started their list rebuild 2 years earlier and were at a more advanced stage. So I don't see it as a great analogy.

Oh really?

And how do you reckon that rebuild is going?

How well advanced are Essendon on their sole reason for existence?

And who are the stars that are going to take them there?

I agree that Bailey had an easier time making the hard decisions than Knights.

But I think and have posted elsewhere that Eseendon is screwed.

They are doomed to finish between 10th and 4th for the next 5 years and cannot win a flag in the next 10 years.

Knights had tougher choices than Bailey but did not make them.

I'd rather be Fremantle than Essendon, provided Fremantle trades either Pavlich or Sandilands this year.

Bailey could have retained TJ and he could be sitting on 6 wins right now and be a "mathematical possibility".

There's 6 clubs that can win the next 5 flags.

There's 2 clubs whose coaches have gone fully to the well and possibly 3 if Freo have the cohones.

There's 7 clubs in limbo, Essendon is one of them and Knights and their board have taken there.

I should add that the entry of GC and WS has brought the situation to a point, there'd be ways around if they weren't coming.

Edited August 12, 2009 by old55

[Geddy Lee 582]

There's 6 clubs that can win the next 5 flags.

There's 2 clubs whose coaches have gone fully to the well and possibly 3 if Freo have the cohones.

There's 7 clubs in limbo, Essendon is one of them and Knights and their board have taken there..

Interesting post old55. Which clubs are which?

I am guessing the Bulldogs are in limbo?

[Roost It 1,434]

Surely you must realise that this has nothing to do with this year. It's all about next year, if we don't improve significantly to being at least out of the bottom 4 with around 8 wins then I think Bailey will really be under the pump and his last 2 seasons definately won't help his cause and now with Lyon suddenly interested in coaching there will be no coach under the pump more than Bailey in 2010.

Yes I do think Walls and Healy have no idea. I think they are the 2 worst special comments men in the country.

No coach could do a worse job than Bailey they may not have done any better, we will never know. You can't get any worse than 2 spoons in a row as a coach. I don't think anyone would keep their job after that maybe Pagan did and he wouldn't have lasted much longer.

You can't write this about Bailey and then respond with your line about it being all about next year. You suggest that Bailey should have lost his job because we have won 2 spoons in a row even though this is exactly what he was employed to do. For the first time ever the club has done a thorough clean out and is rebuilding through the draft, you don't need to applaud the coach but he deserves the respect of the supporters for what he has achieved so far. I'd be very surprised if Bailey wasn't coaching this club in 2011.

[beelzebub 23,250]

You can't write this about Bailey and then respond with your line about it being all about next year. You suggest that Bailey should have lost his job because we have won 2 spoons in a row even though this is exactly what he was employed to do. For the first time ever the club has done a thorough clean out and is rebuilding through the draft, you don't need to applaud the coach but he deserves the respect of the supporters for what he has achieved so far. I'd be very surprised if Bailey wasn't coaching this club in 2011.

Fair comment. Many often fail to see things in perspective.Its all classically "one week at a time" stuff. well just as thats a crock of [censored] in response to where any team sees itself in a season so to is it in respect to how a club/coach/team goes about its business. The MFc wil have known when it on hired Bailey that there was much tending to the garden before any decent crops could be had. That takes fortitude and vision. Also requires a lot of help with other tasked personnel and most importantly requires the club to have nerve and backbone. It also needs the supporters to think beyond that week at a time rubbish and see what was th eclub then and see it as it is now and where its pointing. Yes Bailey/MFC conspired to ensure we got our just deserts and we ought give kudos where warranted as it was he, Bailey , who fronted the media under all its scrutiny week in week out and didnt flinch, didnt duck didnt abdicate his task. With the season end al but nigh and the juicy expectations on offer to top up our list then Bailey has earned the right to be allowed to actually develop his plan and unleash his squad properly. I think we'll see just that in '010 with measured betterments of results and the real development of a challenging side built upon the foundations put down this and last year.

I will look to see what happens next year before really deciding ( for mine ) whther he is the right man for our next premiership. So far ..so good, even though not too many runs on board.

Garry Lyon may one day have a hands on role at the club..or he might not..only time will tell.

[Hannabal 4]

Oh really?

And how do you reckon that rebuild is going?

How well advanced are Essendon on their sole reason for existence?

And who are the stars that are going to take them there?

I agree that Bailey had an easier time making the hard decisions than Knights.

I reckon they're [censored] and that Sheedy didn't help when they went down a couple of years before us.

What's your point ?

[old55 23,024]

I reckon they're [censored] and that Sheedy didn't help when they went down a couple of years before us.

What's your point ?

You reckon they're [censored], I reckon they're [censored] - but Knight's obviously doesn't.

What would've Bailey done of he was Essendon's coach?

Since R2 2008 I've been hoping for priority pick 1 this year.

Bailey's about to deliver on that - it's too easy to say now that it was obvious that's what he had to do.

What would Knights have done if he was Melbourne coach?

I wager you there's plenty of posters in this thread who'd rather be Essendon-Knights than Melbourne-Bailey.

Edited August 13, 2009 by old55

[e25 5]

I wager you there's plenty of posters in this thread who'd rather be Essendon-Knights than Melbourne-Bailey.

Not I.

Not even for a heartbeat.

I pity my essendon supporter friends

[old55 23,024]

Not I.

Not even for a heartbeat.

I pity my essendon supporter friends

Knights staying put

"It's just a waste of time. I've got a contract (2008-10), we're still in the early part of our (rebuilding) program, and things are going pretty strongly."

No surprise though when the alternative is the Richmond job - [censored] sandwich or cup of cold sick.

Edited August 13, 2009 by old55

[e25 5]

Knights staying put

"It's just a waste of time. I've got a contract (2008-10), we're still in the early part of our (rebuilding) program, and things are going pretty strongly."

No surprise though when the alternative is the Richmond job - [censored] sandwich or cup of cold sick.

To clarify, for us the only way is up, up and UP.

For the bombers, its going to get worse before it gets better and then it will take some time before its get significantly better.

Of course they could float around the middle of the table for the next 2 decades too and it wouldn't surprise me one bit.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

To clarify, for us the only way is up, up and UP.

Agree but I am not so sure how much further down we could have trawled over the past 3 years.

[e25 5]

Agree but I am not so sure how much further down we could have trawled over the past 3 years.

I only see progression forward though, more of a series of rises and plateaus, not a rollercoaster like the bombers will have.

Our list will only get better and better.

I can't see an area where we will progressively get worse.

To an extent of course.

[Hobbits's 17]

Interesting post old55. Which clubs are which?

I am guessing the Bulldogs are in limbo?

They're not far at all away from decline. Eade was quick to sign after the West Coast Eagles debacle wasn't he!?

Bulldogs have Bris, Geel, Coll to come. They will drop out of top 4. Johnno & Aker might be gone. Talk of Lake maybe not happy with $$ on offer at Bulldogs whilst Swans might be there to pick up the pieces, maybe Carlton as well.

I reckon we are closer to a Premiership than the Bulldogs if they don't win it this year.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

They're not far at all away from decline. Eade was quick to sign after the West Coast Eagles debacle wasn't he!?

Bulldogs have Bris, Geel, Coll to come. They will drop out of top 4. Johnno & Aker might be gone. Talk of Lake maybe not happy with $$ on offer at Bulldogs whilst Swans might be there to pick up the pieces, maybe Carlton as well.

I reckon we are closer to a Premiership than the Bulldogs if they don't win it this year.

My guess

There's 6 clubs that can win the next 5 flags. - Geelong, St Kida, Coll., Carlton, Hawks and Dogs

There's 2 clubs whose coaches have gone fully to the well and possibly 3 if Freo have the cohones. -Melb, Freo and WCE

There's 7 clubs in limbo, Essendon is one of them and Knights and their board have taken there. - Dons, PA, Sydney, Tigers, Crows, North and Rich.

[Hobbits's 17]

I wouldn't put the Crows in that bracket. Each to their own.

[old55 23,024]

My guess

There's 6 clubs that can win the next 5 flags. - Geelong, St Kida, Coll., Carlton, Hawks and Dogs

There's 2 clubs whose coaches have gone fully to the well and possibly 3 if Freo have the cohones. -Melb, Freo and WCE

There's 7 clubs in limbo, Essendon is one of them and Knights and their board have taken there. - Dons, PA, Sydney, Tigers, Crows, North and Rich.

Correct weight, except you've got Richmond in limbo twice - and they probably deserve to be.

Brisbane is the other limbo club but they're right on the fringe of the flag group and could go either way.

WC may actually be able to win a flag within the 5 years - they may need to because Glass and Cox are already 28.

The limbo clubs are paralysed by the GC and WS draft concessions.

Free agency could mess with this in a big way.

[e25 5]

Correct weight, except you've got Richmond in limbo twice - and they probably deserve to be.

Brisbane is the other limbo club but they're right on the fringe of the flag group and could go either way.

WC may actually be able to win a flag within the 5 years - they may need to because Glass and Cox are already 28.

The limbo clubs are paralysed by the GC and WS draft concessions.

Free agency could mess with this in a big way.

Fair call but i'd swap the Crows with the Dogs

[old55 23,024]

Fair call but i'd swap the Crows with the Dogs

If the Dogs chase and get Hall or Pavlich they can win the flag.

With Goodwin, McLeod, Edwards and Burton almost finished the Crows just wont be able to break thru or get real replacement talent on. Ironically Craig is too good a coach and they'll continue to finish 4-8 for the foreseeble future - they need to replace Craig which will not be easy under those circumstances.