What is the essence of a football club's existence ?

[H_T 3,048]

No it's not.

It's a given that on-going participation is non-negotiable. The word existence is in the poll for a reason. The sole purpose for competing in a competition that rewards the victor with an award is the award itself. Otherwise why enter the competition ? Why keep on fronting up ?. It's called the "Premiership Season" for a reason. Why does a golfer enter a tournament ? Many famous golfers have often said that if they didn't think they could win a tournament then they wouldn't enter it.

And each year is a separate year. How long does an AFL licence run ? If you enter the 'Premiership Season' your sole ambition should be to win it. Everything else is a subsidiary for your reason of having the club enter this competition.

"Competition"

1. the act of competing; rivalry for supremacy, a prize, etc.: The competition between the two teams was bitter.

2. a contest for some prize, honour, or advantage:

Unsurprisingly, not all Melbourne fans have a flag as a non-negotiable. It beggars belief, but I suspected as much.

Fitzroy is a club today with a member base. It doesn't have the sole reason for its existence as a flag because it doesn't belong to a competition. It doesn't have an AFL licence. Our sole aim should always be to win the competition that we enter.

*shakes head*

Indeed. Can I also add, this year we have already lost the battle, but by losing the battle, it just may enable us to WIN the war another day. But these last five rounds will determine important pieces of the "jigsaw." Because there might not be many pieces to obtain in the next few years.

Putting the pieces together to lay the foundations for an assault on a Premiership season is like filling the gaps on a jigsaw puzzle. It takes time. This coming draft and what picks we get is oh SO important.

Good post H.

Edited July 30, 2009 by High Tower

[rpfc 28,483]

It begs this question: if Melbourne were TODAY offered a merger by another club - say, for argument's sake, North or Richmond - and Melbourne were going to be the major partner in the merger, would you choose the almost certain premierships that would follow over the continued existence of Melbourne as an independent club? This is a real test of your poll question - is the essence (or sole purpose) of a club's existence just to get premierships (implying that everything must be done to get one) or is there something else that drives a club's existence, whatever it is?

You are missing the point. And the bolded part is a cop-out - What other reason does this club have to exist other than be the best amongst it peers?

The question wasn't - should a flag be the sole concern of the club?

It was - is a flag the sole reason for its existence?

Continued existence is a primary concern of any club, and you can't have a flag if you don't exist.

But continuing to exist isn't a reason to exist.

(For those who are confused, just take your time and you'll get it soon enough)

Which makes the question you asked moot; if we were to merge we would cease to exist in our current form.

[Vipercrunch 2,827]

It's a given that on-going participation is non-negotiable. The word existence is in the poll for a reason. The sole purpose for competing in a competition that rewards the victor with an award is the award itself. Otherwise why enter the competition ? Why keep on fronting up ?. It's called the "Premiership Season" for a reason. Why does a golfer enter a tournament ? Many famous golfers have often said that if they didn't think they could win a tournament then they wouldn't enter it.

And each year is a separate year. How long does an AFL licence run ? If you enter the 'Premiership Season' your sole ambition should be to win it. Everything else is a subsidiary for your reason of having the club enter this competition.

H, HT, others? Please explain this. Did we enter 2008 and 2009 with the SOLE ambition to win the Premiership in those years?

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Every aspect of a football club should be a subsidiary of, or build up to, winning a Premiership.

Had this statement been part of the poll the result would be very different.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

It may well be that other clubs are strong enough to continue on without a Flag but we are like an ageing body that is getting weaker and weaker and our supporters are getting older and if we don't get an injection of success shortly we may just fade away.

What will we do then Dan, watch golf?

I think you may be right. At the moment, both existing and winning a flag are linked. Many believe we WON'T exist in a decade's time if we don't. It could be enough to say that the group that argue for "existing" and the group that claim the "sole" purpose as existing are in fact both looking for the same thing. Some want to win a flag. Others want to win a flag so that we can continue as MFC.

I have to say, I do find the whole judgement of MFC fans for not wanting a flag at all costs a bit much.

I don't tell anyone how to follow their club. If they love it enough to get tattoos, dye their mohawks red and blue, and live and breathe MFC then that's great. But judging a fan because they like MFC in their own way is a bit much. My old man pays his membership every year, often at the insistence of my brother and I, and he knows little to nothing about the list and ongoing issues. I tell him when he's misinformed about something at the club, but I don't judge him for not loving the club for the same reasons I do.

I don'[t think we have the luxury to judge ANY MFC supporter or fan just because they don't love the red and blue as much as we do.

[rpfc 28,483]

H, HT, others? Please explain this. Did we enter 2008 and 2009 with the SOLE ambition to win the Premiership in those years?

Yes.

We entered those years developing a team to win the Premiership, just not in that year.

It is this building for a flag down the road that keeps me going to games.

Watching Garland last year, and Frawley this year, and dreaming about what they can do in the future is the reason I go to the footy.

It's all about the flag at the end of the tunnell.

[Vipercrunch 2,827]

So you disagree with H's golf analogy then rpfc?

[H_T 3,048]

H, HT, others? Please explain this. Did we enter 2008 and 2009 with the SOLE ambition to win the Premiership in those years?

I think you know the answer to that question. I'll use 45h's post as part of the answer (if I may 45h ): -

Every aspect of a football club should be a subsidiary of, or build up to, winning a Premiership.

Clearly on 2007's form and the state of the list, we weren't going to go anywhere near winning the 2008 /09 Premierships. When Dean Bailey signed on as coach, it was clear that he had a mandate to rebuild the "dee-plorable" list & develop players as part of his coaching portfolio. In fact it continues to this day. And will continue next year.

You don't have to be Einstein to work that out. I'm sure you S_T were aware of this.

The ambition was to rebuild the list left behind and teach the young players a new game style, develop, teach, develop, teach.

Does that answer your question? Just remember 45h's quote whilst you contemplate this.

[rpfc 28,483]

So you disagree with H's golf analogy then rpfc?

By golfing analogy I assume you mean this line - "Why does a golfer enter a tournament? Many famous golfers have often said that if they didn't think they could win a tournament then they wouldn't enter it."

And you assume H equates a tournament to a season.

Analogies are tough because they break down when you try and compare the analogy to the subject matter.

2009 and 2010 and 2011 may be successful years, they may not, but I will faithfully enter those seasons hoping to see the MFC develop a team that will attempt to win a flag from 2012 onwards.

The analogy would be the young golfer who enters the British Open to gain experience for the coming years when he hopes to win the whole fracking thing, get his jacket and say "I am better than the rest of you...[censored]!"

He might use more eloquent words than I...

[Vipercrunch 2,827]

The golfing analogy was directly followed by the paragraph containing "If you enter the 'Premiership Season' your sole ambition should be to win it", which is why I queried it. The analogy that I would prefer is the one you used about a young golfer entering tournanments to gain experience with the hope/dream/ambition to win one in the future. The golfer takes up professional golf with the ambition to win tournaments, but there would be stages in every career where a tournament is more about gaining experience, points, ranking etc etc than winning them.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't gel with the "sole ambition" part of the question. I follow football for several reasons, one of which is to see the MFC win a premiership.

If it became 100% clear the MFC was so disadvantaged behind other clubs that we would never win a Premiership, I would still follow them. If I found out I had 12 months to live, I would still follow them.

Ironically, one of the only reasons that would stop me from following them would be if they blatantly cheated (and I don't mean tanking). If they were so single-minded in their pursuit of a Premiership that they put players on drugs/steroids/blood doping or they willfuly and repeatedly breached the salary cap, then I would stop following them.

[heartbeatstrue 57]

My one word answer to the title question is "passion".

The difficulty with the lead poll question is the word "sole". If you had said "major reason" then I would have voted for it.

I want MFC to win a flag, and soon. In the meantime, I'm enjoying the passion when it comes. Winning for Jimmy earlier this year was a passionate experience. Coming back to beat Freo last year was great passion! Beating the Bulldogs with a monster goal by Jeff White from a boundary ruck free kick, and putting them out of the finals was a very passsionate win. Coming from behind to beat Carlton in a final (when was it?) was an incredibly passionate game. There are lots of passionate memories. Not all associated with winning. Being at Waverley in 1987 was my most passionate experience following Melb. Bitter passion.

I'm guessing the one greater passionate experience, that will relegate that 1987 finals experience off top spot will be winning our next flag. I want to be at least 5 goals up half way through the last quarter, so that we can absolutely savor those last 15 minutes. The siren going and our song playing and the MCG erupting in blue and red will be brilliant, on that sunny last Saturday in September. Will there be a bit of a let-down feeling afterwards? Like, we've got to the top. Goal achieved. Dunno. That's new territory for me. But in case there is, I intend milking the passion of our grand final game for all it's worth.

OK I voted c. Mainly to do with the wording. My absolute hope is to win not one but a whole string of flags. But if MFC never win another flag in my lifetime, I will still be pleased that I have followed the Demons. And invested so much passion in them. It has been worth every magic moment.

[Vipercrunch 2,827]

My one word answer to the title question is "passion".

The difficulty with the lead poll question is the word "sole". If you had said "major reason" then I would have voted for it.

I want MFC to win a flag, and soon. In the meantime, I'm enjoying the passion when it comes. Winning for Jimmy earlier this year was a passionate experience. Coming back to beat Freo last year was great passion! Beating the Bulldogs with a monster goal by Jeff White from a boundary ruck free kick, and putting them out of the finals was a very passsionate win. Coming from behind to beat Carlton in a final (when was it?) was an incredibly passionate game. There are lots of passionate memories. Not all associated with winning. Being at Waverley in 1987 was my most passionate experience following Melb. Bitter passion.

I'm guessing the one greater passionate experience, that will relegate that 1987 finals experience off top spot will be winning our next flag. I want to be at least 5 goals up half way through the last quarter, so that we can absolutely savor those last 15 minutes. The siren going and our song playing and the MCG erupting in blue and red will be brilliant, on that sunny last Saturday in September. Will there be a bit of a let-down feeling afterwards? Like, we've got to the top. Goal achieved. Dunno. That's new territory for me. But in case there is, I intend milking the passion of our grand final game for all it's worth.

OK I voted c. Mainly to do with the wording. My absolute hope is to win not one but a whole string of flags. But if MFC never win another flag in my lifetime, I will still be pleased that I have followed the Demons. And invested so much passion in them. It has been worth every magic moment.

That will do me heartbeatstrue. I wish I could have expressed it like that.

[rpfc 28,483]

My one word answer to the title question is "passion".

The difficulty with the lead poll question is the word "sole". If you had said "major reason" then I would have voted for it.

I want MFC to win a flag, and soon. In the meantime, I'm enjoying the passion when it comes. Winning for Jimmy earlier this year was a passionate experience. Coming back to beat Freo last year was great passion! Beating the Bulldogs with a monster goal by Jeff White from a boundary ruck free kick, and putting them out of the finals was a very passsionate win. Coming from behind to beat Carlton in a final (when was it?) was an incredibly passionate game. There are lots of passionate memories. Not all associated with winning. Being at Waverley in 1987 was my most passionate experience following Melb. Bitter passion.

I'm guessing the one greater passionate experience, that will relegate that 1987 finals experience off top spot will be winning our next flag. I want to be at least 5 goals up half way through the last quarter, so that we can absolutely savor those last 15 minutes. The siren going and our song playing and the MCG erupting in blue and red will be brilliant, on that sunny last Saturday in September. Will there be a bit of a let-down feeling afterwards? Like, we've got to the top. Goal achieved. Dunno. That's new territory for me. But in case there is, I intend milking the passion of our grand final game for all it's worth.

OK I voted c. Mainly to do with the wording. My absolute hope is to win not one but a whole string of flags. But if MFC never win another flag in my lifetime, I will still be pleased that I have followed the Demons. And invested so much passion in them. It has been worth every magic moment.

So you are the saying a reason for the club's existence is to provide you with an emotional experience?

That's fair enough.

Me too, I just know what I want to experience. A fracking flag. I want to experience what it would be like to see the Demons as better than the rest of the AFL.

These emotions are a by-product of the journey to capture the sole reason for the clubs' existence - a flag.

Edited July 30, 2009 by rpfc

[furious d 464]

Unsurprisingly, not all Melbourne fans have a flag as a non-negotiable. It beggars belief, but I suspected as much.

Oh, so that's what this little fishing expedition was all about H.

You truly are sad aren't you.

OK you got me. Because I take the English language literally I don't want a flag as much as you.

[Hannabal 4]

My one word answer to the title question is "passion".

The difficulty with the lead poll question is the word "sole". If you had said "major reason" then I would have voted for it.

OK I voted c. Mainly to do with the wording. My absolute hope is to win not one but a whole string of flags. But if MFC never win another flag in my lifetime, I will still be pleased that I have followed the Demons. And invested so much passion in them. It has been worth every magic moment.

There's a reason I used the word "sole" and there's a reason I gave option C. I gave that option for you.

I was there in round 22 1987 and it's probably my happiest football memory, closely followed by Viney's opening goal a week later in our first Final at the G since '64. I was there when Lyon towelled up Silvagni and kicked a monster torpedo goal the following year at Waverley. I watched a 16 year old kid from Tasmania called Andy Lovell train with the team at the G in 1986 a year before he joined us. I was there at the infamous '87 prelim. I chatted with Greg Wells, who I loved when I was a kid, at the 150th dinner last year at Crown. I was at a lunch hosted by Stewart Spencer at the G in 1986 when he spelled out the discussions our club had had with potential merger candidates North and Fitzroy; and how difficult it was going to be to survive into the future. Robbie is still my favourite player - and think he probably always will be. I was there voting anti-merger at the Dallas Brooks Hall in August '96. And yes, I've upheld the honour of my team since the playground days when I was 5. I've never taken [censored] from opposition supporters - anyone really.

Not every team can win the flag in a given year, as Melbourne supporters know only too well, but the only thing that keeps me passionate is knowing that my club one day might win a flag. It's all that matters to me. Of course there are experiences along the way, which is why I just shared a few, afterall, we're all on a journey. I don't believe that we're a realistic chance for a flag for 5-8 years, but I expect that every decision this club makes will be with a Premiership in mind. If you're unlikely to win in the short-term do all things possible to make it more likely in the medium-term. But it still remains the absolute goal.

And for me it's categorical. We're competing in a competition that awards a premiership cup to the winner. Our club can and has done much good in the community, but none of it would have happened unless it was a participant in this hard fought competition. It's sole reason for being in the competition is (should be) to fight to win the flag. It's a pity that so many supporters have lost sight of what is such a basic non-negotiable premise.

On another thread did I hear someone talking about "reaping what we sow" ?

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

There's a reason I used the word "sole" and there's a reason I gave option C. I gave that option for you.

I was there in round 22 1987 and it's probably my happiest football memory, closely followed by Viney's opening goal a week later in our first Final at the G since '64. I was there when Lyon towelled up Silvagni and kicked a monster torpedo goal the following year at Waverley. I watched a 16 year old kid from Tasmania called Andy Lovell train with the team at the G in 1986 a year before he joined us. I was there at the infamous '87 prelim. I chatted with Greg Wells, who I loved when I was a kid, at the 150th dinner last year at Crown. I was at a lunch hosted by Stewart Spencer at the G in 1986 when he spelled out the discussions our club had had with potential merger candidates North and Fitzroy; and how difficult it was going to be to survive into the future. Robbie is still my favourite player - and think he probably always will be. I was there voting anti-merger at the Dallas Brooks Hall in August '96. And yes, I've upheld the honour of my team since the playground days when I was 5. I've never taken [censored] from opposition supporters - anyone really.

Not every team can win the flag in a given year, as Melbourne supporters know only too well, but the only thing that keeps me passionate is knowing that my club one day might win a flag. It's all that matters to me. Of course there are experiences along the way, which is why I just shared a few, afterall, we're all on a journey. I don't believe that we're a realistic chance for a flag for 5-8 years, but I expect that every decision this club makes will be with a Premiership in mind. If you're unlikely to win in the short-term do all things possible to make it more likely in the medium-term. But it still remains the absolute goal.

And for me it's categorical. We're competing in a competition that awards a premiership cup to the winner. Our club can and has done much good in the community, but none of it would have happened unless it was a participant in this hard fought competition. It's sole reason for being in the competition is (should be) to fight to win the flag. It's a pity that so many supporters have lost sight of what is such a basic non-negotiable premise.

On another thread did I hear someone talking about "reaping what we sow" ?

I too was at all those games, & i agree completely with what you said. Each year A Cup is given to the best Team of that year.

We should always strive 100% to win it. Within the Rules that are agreed upon by all. So no i don't want to be like Carlton.

But i want my club to be the best.

[heartbeatstrue 57]

There's a reason I used the word "sole" and there's a reason I gave option C. I gave that option for you.

Thank you, good Hannibal.

I agree with all you say, and for me winning a flag is definitely the most important thing about MFC.

I was there voting anti-merger at the Dallas Brooks Hall in August '96.

We might have rubbed shoulders that night. I was there with my kids, we were right up the front and sitting in the aisle. The other day I came across a few old "NO MERGER" cardboard signs that had been gathering dust under the bed. Maybe they should go in a museum somewhere? Any ideas anybody?

[Trisul 664]

i don't want to be like Carlton.

That exactly what it (this thread) is about to my ears.

If that fair Hannibal? Is that what you are advocating?

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

That exactly what it (this thread) is about to my ears.

If that fair Hannibal? Is that what you are advocating?

Rubbish being the best does not mean you have to cheat. Although Rules seem to change too often these days for my liking

The Current Swimming Championships are a Fine Example.

Legal Bowling Actions in Cricket.-absolute joke the changes that were made, to fit in with Murali

[G'borough Demon 0]

Partly, otherwise why bother doing a poll ? I was also interested in expressing my view. Funny about that.

I had a healthy suspicion that a flag wasn't the be all and end all for a number of supporters. As staggering as that is to a number of us.

Great thread H, very refreshing topic.

I would love to see the mighty Dee's win a flag. In fact, I would love to see us sustain a dominating period at the top of the ladder for many years. However, I voted B and for a very good reason (IMO!) When I arrived in Melbourne everybody told me that I had to pick a football team. It would have been very easy for me to pick a team that was top of the ladder, had the most supporters etc etc. After some research I found I wanted to be part of something more. I wanted to be part of a team that was swamped in tradition and had a proud history....... Considering this, there is only one team in Melbourne!

I'm certain that at the begining of the year the main focus of the playing group and support staff is to win a flag. However, a football club is not just made up of the playing group and support staff. As a supporter and a member of the club I want to enjoy the journey and have few memories (good or bad) along the way. If we win a flag, even better.

Edited July 30, 2009 by G'borough Demon

[Hannabal 4]

That exactly what it (this thread) is about to my ears.

If that fair Hannibal? Is that what you are advocating?

Some people read what they want to. I'm not advocating cheating of the salary cap; and even if I didn't believe in 'list management' and was like Donny Williams, who wants to win every week for the rest of the year, I wouldn't have a different view.

Play fair, be fair, and win a flag. Do all within your power (legally) to win the competition you're competing in. There can be no other goal. It's such a pure ambition and surely why a club competes.

Nutshell:

Hannibal's view: "a club exists solely to win the annual competition it's entered for the last 113 years. By-products and worthwhile community projects culminate from that very participation, but it's the essence of competing for the flag that is at the core of the very existence of the club."

[Hannabal 4]

After some research I found I wanted to be part of something more. I wanted to be part of a team that was swamped in tradition and had a proud history....... Considering this, there is only one team in Melbourne!

Norm Smith and his involvement in ten of our twelve flags gave us this proud history. He was ruthless in his quest for premierships. As was his pupil RDB.

No disrespect intended, but thankfully he didn't have the views of some on here or perhaps the rich history the club enjoys, and that helped lure you, wouldn't be so evident. And unfortunately that's all it is now - history. When we you lured ? Would your equivalent of today be lured ?

Some are more satisfied than others I guess, GD. But I still argue the principal; if winning the competition isn't the sole purpose then you're wasting the competition's time. Better to let someone else have a go.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Hannibal

[G'borough Demon 0]

Norm Smith and his involvement in ten of our twelve flags gave us this proud history. He was ruthless in his quest for premierships. As was his pupil RDB.

No disrespect intended, but thankfully he didn't have the views of some on here or perhaps the rich history the club enjoys, and that helped lure you, wouldn't be so evident. And unfortunately that's all it is now - history. When we you lured ? Would your equivalent of today be lured ?

Some are more satisfied than others I guess, GD. But I still argue the principal; if winning the competition isn't the sole purpose then you're wasting the competition's time. Better to let someone else have a go.

I agree that the playing group are (or at least should be) focused soley on winning games and ultimately a flag or two. I guess I'm trying to define a "Football Club" as more than just the playing group. I'm relatively new to Melbourne so the past 40 years without a flag did not distract me in making my choice of which AFL team to follow for life.

[rpfc 28,483]

Some people are way off track here.

The MFC is a footy club in the AFL. There are 15 other clubs competing in the league.

A flag is the prize awarded to the best team.

Each club enters the league with a desire to be that best team.

It is the sole reason for its existence.

If it isn't - it is a social club that plays some park footy.

But we don't play park footy - we pay millions to be apart of, and try to win, the AFL Premiership. The elite league of Aussie Rules.

I enjoy the rollercoaster of emotions too, but it is in pursuit of that flag that we feel those emotions.

That Jeff White goal against the Dogs 'kept the dream of September action alive,' the excitement of the Freo comeback let us hope that perhaps this Wonaeamirri fellow was the FP we haven't had since 2001, and the ease of the Port win got us going because two 20 year olds kicked 8 between them and won the game.

The emotion comes from the belief that what you are seeing is the beginnings of a team that could challenge for a flag at some stage.

A flag that is the sole reason for the MFC's existence.

[H_T 3,048]

People who want to go into work on mondays to stick it up their colleagues because their team won, a team that owes nothing to that person, is fairly typical of the attitude of today's "give me everything, and give it to me now" generation. We see them on this forum.

Those of you on this thread who have talked about the reason football clubs exist, the social fabric, the fabric that supports a cohesive and physically and mentally healthy community have got it right.

....

....

...

You could not be more wrong. It's just that I can see the game, the skills, the work, the sacrifice, and I am not swayed by manic masturbation or other immediate self satisfaction, or ego trips.

That's your opinion and your entitled to it.

If you can see those things, I suppose we can expect no criticising of players coming from you in future then to stroke your ego.

Some people are way off track here.

The MFC is a footy club in the AFL. There are 15 other clubs competing in the league.

A flag is the prize awarded to the best team.

Each club enters the league with a desire to be that best team.

It is the sole reason for its existence.

If it isn't - it is a social club that plays some park footy.

But we don't play park footy - we pay millions to be apart of, and try to win, the AFL Premiership. The elite league of Aussie Rules.

I enjoy the rollercoaster of emotions too, but it is in pursuit of that flag that we feel those emotions.

That Jeff White goal against the Dogs 'kept the dream of September action alive,' the excitement of the Freo comeback let us hope that perhaps this Wonaeamirri fellow was the FP we haven't had since 2001, and the ease of the Port win got us going because two 20 year olds kicked 8 between them and won the game.

The emotion comes from the belief that what you are seeing is the beginnings of a team that could challenge for a flag at some stage.

A flag that is the sole reason for the MFC's existence.

Indeed rpfc, indeed.

PS. Don't humour me again champ.