What is the essence of a football club's existence ?

[Hannabal 4]

I believe that the sole purpose of a football club is winning flags and that every decision a club makes should be with this agenda in mind. Obviously football clubs make many decisions to strengthen their support and income streams, such as the relationship we've fostered with the City of Casey, but ultimately every football person is judged at the end of their tenure by 'cups in the cupboard'. And as a supporter a flag is pivotal to my journey.

Not all Melbourne supporters agree. To provide balance, below is an exchange that I had recently with 'Axis of Bob' on another thread.

'Axis of Bob': "just because you only care about a flag and nothing else (apparently) it doesn't mean that is the sole reason that clubs exist. As a member based organisation it is in existance to serve the interests of its members. A premiership is an easy goal to have and I think most supporters will go along with that goal, but a football club serves so many different purposes for people. But, as you yourself said, some supporters 'just don't crave flags'. If that's the case then the club exists to satify their needs as they are a member of a membership organisation. If they don't feel that the club reflects their goals then they will leave, just as you would leave if you felt that the club was aiming for consistent competitiveness rather than aiming for a premiership. It's all about 'how it makes [you] feel'.

"It seems a no brainer" - Good to see you remaining open minded. "

My response: "We all (mostly) enjoy the journey and watching talented footballers, but ultimately clubs only exist to win the premiership. It's so pure and simple that even the 'see game win game' brigade should understand. It's why the MFC are playing in what's called a "competition". Clubs aren't always realistically in a position to win a flag in a given year, but the sole aim of any club, and any decisions it makes for the future, must be with this quest in mind. Because some clubs haven't always made decisions with this in mind they've inhibited their chances of success. I hate Carlton, but they make all their decisions based on winning a flag. I'm not endorsing cheating the salary cap, etc, and no-one was happier than me when they were caught, but they at least understand why they exist. And it was a Melbourne icon that brought them this mentality over 40 years ago.

Unfortunately, it's your type of misunderstanding that epitomises this club and reflects its lack of success. It's also a view that embarrasses me and makes me sometimes cringe around MFC supporters. That you cannot understand the sole reason for clubs existing is telling."

With whom do you agree ?

Maybe my sentiment differs to that of many supporters. No doubt some supporters would love a flag, but it's not the be all and end all. It is to me, as I wouldn't follow a club if I unequivocally knew that Melb. wouldn't win a flag in my lifetime. It's the only thing that keeps me going. But I might be in the minority, and I want to find out, which is the reason for the poll. Of course one can't predict the future, but all I consider as a supporter is a flag. Nothing else matters. 'Axis of Bob' thinks I'm far too black and white - and he may be right.

If possible, those that vote please post whether you voted a. b. or c. as I'd like to know where individuals stand. You don't need to comment, just nominate how you voted. Naturally, comments are welcome.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Hannibal

[Jarka 767]

If winning a premiership isn't the sole aim of a football club then it may as well shut the doors right now.

Having said that, modern football clubs are now a business, and like all businesses it needs to take care of it's stakeholders, such as members, sponsors etc. However, above all it still needs to strive for excellence (sorry, had to be done) and aim for premierships. I'd say that in taking care of all the issues Bob mentioned it keeps everyone happy to ensure sufficient funds to have a shot at a premiership.

[H_T 2,941]

If you aren't a Melbourne supporter who dreams of their team winning the flag and holding the Cup aloft the victroy dias........you're not a 'true believer'. How they get to that point is totally relevant.

As Hannibal states, "It's so pure and simple that even the 'see game win game' brigade should understand."

Agree with Hannibal. And if people are fair dinkum, they too would realise that the competition contains clubs that compete to firstly reach finals and secondly, ultimately a Premiership.

"Because some clubs haven't always made decisions with this in mind they've inhibited their chances of success - How true.

[JACKATTACK 17]

If winning a premiership isn't the sole aim of a football club then it may as well shut the doors right now.

The sole aim of the football club is to serve its members, provide a quality product, which for me is the ability to go to the footy with my friends and family and enjoy the event.

Premierships make that experience far more enjoyable, improve the product and in doing so serve the members, but for me it is serve the members first.

I frame it like this: In purely hypothetical situation, understanding that the questions are rediculously absurd.

Would you give up all our members and supporters for a premiership?

Would you support the club if you knew they weren't going to win a premiership?

For me it is No, and Yes.

[H_T 2,941]

Hannibal, you should be able to just full edit and create Poll with what you've already posted.

Then again, something might not be working for you.

[torpedo 33]

Are you talking about all football clubs or AFL clubs? The MFC doesn't seem to me to be a very good case study for your average footy club.

To me, a football club exists to bring people together. They may share the goal of a premiership but not always, certainly not always in junior footy and often in the ammos or country footy the main aim is just to have a run around with your mates.

The MFC is but one of 10,000s of football clubs and is rather unusual in thats its a professional football club so isn't a true reflection on your average footy club. I think you need to look at a variety of different types of clubs, from juniors, through to ammos, through to country footy, through to AFL, to consider what is the essence of football club's existence fully.

Ultimately every football person is judged at the end of their tenure by 'cups in the cupboard'.

I know plenty of blokes that have provided 50+ years of service to football clubs and nobody could give a rats arse how many premierships they have been involved with, least of all 'judging' them by it.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Having said that, modern football clubs are now a business, and like all businesses it needs to take care of it's stakeholders, such as members, sponsors etc.

By running the club as a business, the likelihood of winning a flag increases as the club runs more efficiently, effectively and is able to reinvest in areas such as the Football Department, facilities, coaches etc.

I am in the "win a premiership" group as I believe that in achieving this goal, all other purposes that the club serves (pleasing stakeholders and alike) are more likely to be satisfied.

[Gorgoroth 12,319]

Give me a cup and give it to me now!

[Jarka 767]

The sole aim of the football club is to serve its members, provide a quality product, which for me is the ability to go to the footy with my friends and family and enjoy the event.

Premierships make that experience far more enjoyable, improve the product and in doing so serve the members, but for me it is serve the members first.

I frame it like this: In purely hypothetical situation, understanding that the questions are rediculously absurd.

Would you give up all our members and supporters for a premiership?

Would you support the club if you knew they weren't going to win a premiership?

For me it is No, and Yes.

I guess this is where the lines get a bit murky. In modern footy for a club to win a premiership it has to be financially strong, and the only way of doing that is to have alot of members to attract top sponsorship deals. So you have to keep your members happy to keep them and attract new ones, obviously having a strong brand helps and that means being competitve.

I still beleive though that everything is done with one aim in mind, and that is winning premierships.

Torp, in this case I'm presuming that we're referring to professional footbcall clubs in elite competitions.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Jarka

[torpedo 33]

Quality product?

Stakeholders?

Sponsorship?

How many people in this thread still remain involved at their local football club? I think some people need to go down to an ordinary football club and remind themselves what its all about.

[Vipercrunch 2,804]

For me, following football is a entertainment past-time. I refuse to judge the sucess and failure of my team simply by premierships. I hope we win them. I expect it is one of the ultimate aims of the club, but I won't treat it as a failed season when we don't. I can handle short term pain for long term gain, but I expect the pursuit of a premiership to be done ethically.

So no, I don't believe the sole purpose of a football club can be be to win premierships but it has to be one of the primary reasons. The members need to be looked after. The financial stabilty needs to be considered.

Supporters with the same view as Hannibal would struggle following English Soccer, as only 4 teams have any chance to win. The strange thing to consider is even teams that rarely even make the top league still have thousands of loyal and passionate financial members.

Edit: I just had a closer look at Torp's posts. Very good arguments.

Edited July 29, 2009 by S_T

[torpedo 33]

Torp, in this case I'm presuming that we're referring to professional footbcall clubs in elite competitions.

I am not so sure Hanniball is and I think it needs to be clarified as the last thing I think of when I hear the words 'footy club' is that.

[H_T 2,941]

I know plenty of blokes that have provided 50+ years of service to football clubs and nobody could give a rats arse how many premierships they have been involved with, least of all 'judging' them by it.

Well that's just it. How do we judge Collingwood and essendon from a StKilda or Western Bulldogs. We know that the former have 14 and 16 Premierships respectively and the latter have 1 each. We know that Essendon and Collingwood as history would show that they are successful clubs. They also have more members and supporters. For years the Saints and Bulldogs have been known as the 'weaker' or poorer performed clubs.

Sure, there's members interests and some who go to games wouldn't give a continental with regards to the result as they would prefer the social 'outing'. But ultimately the aim is to cater for all members and in doing so - collectively the ultimate aim is Premiership success. It's what should drive the club. This is the AFL, it's not the back blocks of suburban football. It's AFL and it's the greatest game in Australia and greatest level of Australian Rules football; it's also history. In relation to the Melbournefc it's 151 years of history.

IMO some people just take it for granted. They're not as 'tribal' and it maybe one of the reasons as to why our club is not considered as ruthless as others in terms of decisions made on and off the field. It's why where we are today. On the bottom and in debt.

Suddenly things are happening at the club.

The recent debate on these forums in relation to the 'list management' to obtain or not obtain priority pick is a testament to this attitude.

[titan_uranus 22,358]

I side with Hannibal/Hannabal (when did that happen?) on this one. A football club exists to win a premiership. That's why it has members and supporters. They support the club, they want to see it win games, which leads to winning a flag.

Edit: Actually, a football club exists to win premierships (in the plural).

Edited July 29, 2009 by titan_uranus

[old55 21,303]

Bob is correct, the club exists to fulfill its members' varied aims.

This member's aim in to win flags and if we couldn't win one I wouldn't follow the club.

But I recognise others have different and legitimate aims.

Maybe it's a pity that most of us are unable to change our allegiance based on which club might best fulfill our aims.

[Jarka 767]

I am not so sure Hanniball is and I think it needs to be clarified as the last thing I think of when I hear the words 'footy club' is that.

Considering this website is called demonland and discusses issues involving the Melbourne Football Club then my guess is probably pretty accurate. However if we were on a website called the vermontsouthfc.com.au then I'd probably agree with you. To take this further I think you're referring to social clubs, and if so then I agree with you.

[torpedo 33]

Well that's just it. How do we judge Collingwood and essendon from a StKilda or Western Bulldogs. We know that the former have 14 and 16 Premierships respectively and the latter have 1 each. We know that Essendon and Collingwood as history would show that they are successful clubs. They also have more members and supporters. For years the Saints and Bulldogs have been known as the 'weaker' or poorer performed clubs.

How is that relevant to my point you highlighted? I don't understand...

Sure, there's members interests and some who go to games wouldn't give a continental with regards to the result as they would prefer the social 'outing'. But ultimately the aim is to cater for all members and in doing so - collectively the ultimate aim is Premiership success. It's what should drive the club. This is the AFL, it's not the back blocks of suburban football. It's AFL and it's the greatest game in Australia and greatest level of Australian Rules football; it's also history. In relation to the Melbournefc it's 151 years of history.

IMO some people just take it for granted. They're not as 'tribal' and it maybe one of the reasons as to why our club is not considered as ruthless as others in terms of decisions made on and off the field. It's why where we are today. On the bottom and in debt.

I think you are confusing people who value the club and its people more than a premiership cup itself as people who don't give a stuff, which seems very misguided.

I totally agree that the sole aim of the MFC is to win premierships, of course it is. Thats not the OPs question though.

[Hannabal 4]

Poll is up. Please nominate how you voted.

[Axis of Bob 10,219]

Ever the populist, Hanna.

Anyway, I was thinking about how we should judge what the essence of a football club's existence is. Are we going to judge it based on a local footy club, where the team is so much more than premierships, or do we look specifically at AFL clubs, where the chest beaters are so much louder about their quest for a premiership? So I decided to take the harder route, which was an AFL club - the elite footballers playing againsts elite footballers with money spent to coach them, make them better etc.

So where do you find the goals and aims of an AFL football club? I suppose the best place would be to find out what their own expressed aims and objectives are as stated in their constitution. This is, after all, the basis of a club's existence.

I could find a few clubs constitutions on the internet, so I have decided to post the club objectives of the shortest one - the Brisbane Lions - and give links to some others.

Brisbane Lions -

1.2 The Corporation has the following objects:

a) to hold and maintain its license from the Australian Football League (or its successor) entitling the Corporation to operate an Australian Football League club and to field a football team or teams in the national Australian Football competition and any other Australian Football competition administered by the Australian Football League (or its successor);

B) to promote and advance the playing of Australian Football in Australia and internationally in general and in particular to promote and advance that object by maintaining, providing, supporting and managing a team or teams of footballers bearing the name of the Brisbane Lions based in Brisbane, Queensland and to compete in the national Australian Football League (or its successor) with other members of that competition and if considered necessary and desirable by the Board of Directors of the Corporation, to compete in any other sporting competition played in any part of Australia or internationally;

c) to provide facilities including, but not limited to social, sporting, athletic and legal gaming facilities for members of the Corporation and their guests and to maintain such premises for the use and enjoyment of the members and their guests for those purposes;

d) to prohibit the conduct by any person on any premises maintained by the Corporation of any gaming activities prohibited by any applicable legislation whatsoever; and

e) to do all things necessary for or incidental to the advancement of the objects set out in paragraphs (a), (B), © and (d) of this clause.

At no point does it talk about winning a premiership. The objectives of the Brisbane Lions are, in summary:

- to participate in the highest level of football competition in the country,

- to promote AFL football by operating a team out of Brisbane,

- to serve the best interests of the club's members and

- to operate legally.

The links for the others are:

www.hawthornfc.com.au/constitution/tabid/4843/default.aspx

www.sydneyswans.com.au/swans%20constitution/tabid/8002/default.aspx

www.essendonfc.com.au/club/cons-current.doc

Now, if you wish, do a search through all of those constitutions for the word "premiership". If you can't be bothered, I'll tell you that none of these constitutions mentions winning a premiership. Nor do they even talk about the level of performance that they should aspire to.

What you are doing, Hanna, is confusing your goals with the reason why football clubs exist. Football clubs exist at the highest level for the reasons stated above. They are membership organisations and it is up to the members to decide what they want from their football club. For most people they primarily want to be a member because they want to follow the Melbourne Football Club in the AFL. Sure they want Melbourne to win a premiership, but that is not the primary reason for their membership.

If the AFL offered us the 2009 premiership in exchange for our AFL license then I don't think the members would vote for it.

But don't worry, Hanna, the kids will still love you because you're loud and it means that they don't have to think for themselves.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Axis of Bob

[youami 53]

no brainer. a premiership.

All that other crap pales into insignficance. Premiership, premiership, premiership. In that order.

[Hannabal 4]

Bob is correct, the club exists to fulfill its members' varied aims.

I disagree. It exists to win premierships. That's why it fields a team in a competition.

Sure, there are varying members' needs to cater for, but clubs exist to win flags.

[torpedo 33]

Considering this website is called demonland and discusses issues involving the Melbourne Football Club then my guess is probably pretty accurate. However if we were on a website called the vermontsouthfc.com.au then I'd probably agree with you. To take this further I think you're referring to social clubs, and if so then I agree with you.

Hmmm, I disagree.

This is a football website. Melbourne Demons are a football club. I would interprete the question exactly the same whether it was here or at vermontsouthfc.com.au as the question is not 'What is the essence of MFC's existence?' or 'What is the essence of VFC's existence?' it is 'What is the essence of a football club's existence?'

Hanniball seems like a fairly literate bloke and I am sure if he wanted to make it AFL specific he would have done.

And I am most definetly referring to football clubs, not social clubs. A lot of junior footy clubs don't even have a social club.

[torpedo 33]

Poll is up. Please nominate how you voted.

Care to clarify that you are referring to football clubs, not AFL clubs?

[Axis of Bob 10,219]

And I haven't voted because the options do not accurately reflect my view.

A football club does not exist to win premierships. Winning premierships is a tool that helps the club to achieve some of its objectives as a club.

[youami 53]

Dees have not won a premiership in a million years and winning one is vital to our long term future. Once we have achieved this goal, we need to win as many as we can in our 'window', once our window is closed, our aim is to get back up again (not as soon as possible, but for as long as possible - current boards view i believe).

Only once we have stabilised as a club, and stability is due in no small part to success, can we consider other things. Of course a football club has certain obligations to it's members and society, but it's main aim, number on KPI, reason for being is to win a premiership.

How can it be any other way?