I hate to say it but ...

[Roost It 1,434]

One of the best and most pertinent posts I've read Hannabal.

You quite clearly aren't reading my posts

[dee-luded 2,959]

what ^ he said

Is entirely short sighted and foolhardy to waste this years early picks for some ridiculous sense of winning culture faux morality.

Theres a time for everything.. winning any more than two more games is not it this year !! would be just plain DUMB

The more rolls of the dice one has, the more likely ones numbers will turn up.

Its as simple as that, no science really, just making the most of opportunities. While were down here rebuilding, lets do it the quick way, with more picks.

[Doggo 32]

To me there seems to be three distinct camps - there's the "we're doomed if we win more than 4" group; the "one top draft pick won't win us a flag" exponents; or the “I don’t care about draft picks as they are not the be all and end all and I want my team to win every week they play”.

....

Having said all that, I can’t possibly criticize those supporters that crave a win every week despite the draft consequences. I just don’t agree. This is it though. I can’t go through one more year wanting anything other than a victory.

Great post H, spot on.

[e25 5]

Very nicely put H, I have nothing to add.

[beelzebub 23,350]

The more rolls of the dice one has, the more likely ones numbers will turn up.

Its as simple as that, no science really, just making the most of opportunities. While were down here rebuilding, lets do it the quick way, with more picks.

agree..succint

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,780]

Well said,Hannabal. I hope your post makes a few of these supporters who are hoping for wins understand the situation a bit better. Trouble is, they probably won't read it.

[H_T 3,043]

Well said,Hannabal. I hope your post makes a few of these supporters who are hoping for wins understand the situation a bit better. Trouble is, they probably won't read it.

Agree. Maybe Kat, Davey Jones's and Davey Magik could have a read of Hannabal's post.

After the next 8 weeks, I too probably couldn't go through another season with just a few victories. But by golly, I could withstand the next several weeks of a competitive team that gives their all and finish with 4 or less wins, just to get what our club requires to assist in success in the years to follow.

Well said 'H'.

Edited July 7, 2009 by High Tower

[Guest Rojik of the Arctic]

To me there seems to be three distinct camps - there's the "we're doomed if we win more than 4" group; the "one top draft pick won't win us a flag" exponents; or the “I don’t care about draft picks as they are not the be all and end all and I want my team to win every week they play”.

I am firmly in the third camp but I do agree with what you are saying. I understand that the Kruezer cup was a game we should have lost so we could have moved further forward as a club and I know that it wouldn't help us to win 5 this year, but, dammit, I was a child of the '70's. I was 5 or 6 before I was at a game that we won. I remember going to school as the only Dee's supporter there and being bagged by rest. I was at the game when Fitzroy wrote a new record against us. The GF's, 87, 98 (god that one hurts more than the rest) and all of the other stuff that goes with being a red and blue boy. But I have never left a game early, nor have I turned off the TV before the game is over. I told my wife when we first met that Melbourne games would always be sacrosact - No weddings, funerals or child births would stop that and I have score books from every game going back at least a decade where I have noted every goal, point and goal kicker. I would love to see a flag more than anything but I can't ever want them to lose. Ever. I've seen enough of it. I do understand the other point of view, and my head says yes but my heart says never!

And yep, I need to use paragraphs but I needed to get that out as quick as I could. Go Dees - Give 'em Hell

Edit: I just thought of an analogy: I know cigarettes are bad for me and I should cut back to help me but I enjoy them too much to care about the consequences.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Rojik of the Arctic

[H_T 3,043]

2000 GF. PS. If you enjoy those cigarettes too much you may suffer further.. if you cut back you might just thrive and succeed with your health and come out a winner. And kids who support the dees can be proud at school and hold their head up.

Edited July 7, 2009 by High Tower

[e25 5]

Being just satisfied with Scully is the sort of attitude that has got us where we are.

Definitions differ depending on the person, but for me this is "accepting mediocrity".

Accepting the slightly quicker, less painful route to moderate success, as opposed to doing what it takes to achieve ultimate success, accepting the short-term repercussions whatever they may be.

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,780]

"I am firmly in the third camp"

" I know cigarettes are bad for me and I should cut back to help me but I enjoy them too much to care about the consequences."

These two statements obviously are made by someone with very poor judgment.

[Trisul 664]

Want vs Need

[Roost It 1,434]

Want vs Need

I want us to lose because we need the picks. Does that make it a win win situation

[beelzebub 23,350]

I need us to lose because I want the picks :D

yep..any way you do it its pretty much win/win

[Guest Rojik of the Arctic]

"I am firmly in the third camp"

" I know cigarettes are bad for me and I should cut back to help me but I enjoy them too much to care about the consequences."

These two statements obviously are made by someone with very poor judgment.

What a wonderful system we have when a supporter who wants to see his team win is derided by his fellow supporters.

[H_T 3,043]

What a wonderful system we have when a supporter who wants to see his team win is derided by his fellow supporters.

read post #109. It was in response to #108.

[45HG 1,539]

No one likes the system, that's why it's being gotten rid of, but we may as well make the most of it while we can

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

What a wonderful system we have when a supporter who wants to see his team win is derided by his fellow supporters.

"But cigarettes help me relax so how can that be bad for me?"

[beelzebub 23,350]

No one likes the system, that's why it's being gotten rid of, but we may as well make the most of it while we can

couldnt agree more, we'd simply be cutting off our noses to spite our faces not to. It might appease many's supposed righteous sensibilities to do this but what will anyone really care of in five years.. Us holding a Cup high...or that year we finished last ? I know what I prefer

[Guest Rojik of the Arctic]

No one likes the system, that's why it's being gotten rid of, but we may as well make the most of it while we can

And as I stated I understand that. My head says yeah, I hope we do get 1 & 2 but my heart wants us to win every game we play, and when it comes to footy the heart rules. I realise that that there are some people who are a little more cold blooded than me and will be happy with the losses but I'm not coming out calling them "Carlscum like hypocrites who aren't fit to look at pictures of MFC players etc". I might not agree with their opinion but I don't slam it, but when I, or anyone else say that we want a win each game we get a mouthful. Somebody even suggested we are not real supporters. Hey, enjoy the losses that will come (coz they will - we're just not good enough) but don't dare tell me that there is something wrong with me enjoying whatever wins we get. Oh, and this Scully kid had better hold up a Premiership cup for us one day.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Rojik of the Arctic

[45HG 1,539]

And as I stated I understand that. My head says yeah, I hope we do get 1 & 2 but my heart wants us to win every game we play, and when it comes to footy the heart rules. I realise that that there are some people who are a little more cold blooded than me and will be happy with the losses but I'm not coming out calling them "Carlscum like hypocrites who aren't fit to look at pictures of MFC players etc". I might not agree with their opinion but I don't slam it, but when I, or anyone else say that we want a win each game we get a mouthful. Somebody even suggested we are not real supporters. Hey, enjoy the losses that will come (coz they will - we're just not good enough) but don't dare tell me that there is something wrong with me enjoying whatever wins we get. Oh, and this Scully kid had better hold up a Premiership cup for us one day.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I have never given you a mouthful nor have I stated you aren't a real supporter.

It's a passionate topic with an unfortunate bearing because of the system.

Edited July 8, 2009 by 45hotgod

[H_T 3,043]

And as I stated I understand that. My head says yeah, I hope we do get 1 & 2 but my heart wants us to win every game we play, and when it comes to footy the heart rules. I realise that that there are some people who are a little more cold blooded than me and will be happy with the losses but I'm not coming out calling them "Carlscum like hypocrites who aren't fit to look at pictures of MFC players etc". I might not agree with their opinion but I don't slam it, but when I, or anyone else say that we want a win each game we get a mouthful. Somebody even suggested we are not real supporters. Hey, enjoy the losses that will come (coz they will - we're just not good enough) but don't dare tell me that there is something wrong with me enjoying whatever wins we get. Oh, and this Scully kid had better hold up a Premiership cup for us one day.

He will make you proud Rojik. If we get him.

[hells bells 2,023]

No, we need the priority pick as well. This is the last opportunity to take advantage of a pp over the next few years. Why on earth given the chance to get a free pick 2 or 3 would we blow it ? It's great to get Scully, but the extra top 3 pick is a must. Griffen was top 3, as was Roughead, Ball, Kosi, Sylvia, Ellis, Thomas, Wells... They're not all stars, but why lose the opportunity of a very good player, if not a star, because of 1-2 too many wins.

Being just satisfied with Scully is the sort of attitude that has got us where we are.

Btw, I'd take Morabito or Trengove with pick 2 - just leaning towards the former. I reckon Morabito will be a star. Morabito or 1 more win ? 200 game line breaking star or 1 more win ? Just Scully or Scully plus a potential star ?

The trickle down, or ripple effect of stars is palpable. Don't under estimate the benefits of that pp pick. It's massive.

Some say that we won't win 5 no matter how hard we try. I'm not so sure. But I'm happy to have wasted my time over a non-issue if it is the case. Not to mention enjoy the upcoming draft.

I agree completely with your point Hannabal, one important point you are missing is that another talented player on the list provides us with better trading options for the next 5 years. Who's to say we couldn't trade a Morabito or Trengrove in 3 years time to the Gold Coast for a couple of sub 10 picks...

As has been said, the short term pain will be forgotten in 3 years time. We would be incredibly foolish to throw away this opportunity to stockpile some serious talent.

[Akum 2,660]

No, we need the priority pick as well. This is the last opportunity to take advantage of a pp over the next few years. Why on earth given the chance to get a free pick 2 or 3 would we blow it ? It's great to get Scully, but the extra top 3 pick is a must. Griffen was top 3, as was Roughead, Ball, Kosi, Sylvia, Ellis, Thomas, Wells... They're not all stars, but why lose the opportunity of a very good player, if not a star, because of 1-2 too many wins.

Being just satisfied with Scully is the sort of attitude that has got us where we are.

Btw, I'd take Morabito or Trengove with pick 2 - just leaning towards the former. I reckon Morabito will be a star. Morabito or 1 more win ? 200 game line breaking star or 1 more win ? Just Scully or Scully plus a potential star ?

The trickle down, or ripple effect of stars is palpable. Don't under estimate the benefits of that pp pick. It's massive.

Some say that we won't win 5 no matter how hard we try. I'm not so sure. But I'm happy to have wasted my time over a non-issue if it is the case. Not to mention enjoy the upcoming draft.

No Hannibal, not what I meant at all. Every team we play from now on has far too much to lose to let us win, except for Freo. If we beat anybody else, we'll either destroy their finals chance (e.g. might finish 7th instead of 4th, for example) or finish an AFL coaching career for good (because it will put paid to Rawlings' or Crocker's chances of being reappointed, either next year or any other time). Our only likely win is Freo. One unlikely win is unlikely, but two unlikely wins defies any odds.

Tiges & Kangas have far too much to lose, their tanking option disappeared when they got new coaches who are auditioning for next year. The only side who can finish below us are Freo, plus WCE if they lose all and we get one unlikely win. I mistakenly thought that Freo would qualify for a PP, but of course they won 5 in 08 so they don't. So if the best we can do is to finish 14th ahead of WCE & Freo, WCE will use their PP on any of the 5 or 6 outstanding WA players in the carnival, probably Morabito, so we still get Scully anyway.

Other than that, I don't care too much whether we pick up Morabito at pick 2 or Rohan or Martin at pick 6. Scully + Morabito or Scully + Rohan, not a lot of difference. Scully will ADD to our midfield - the other might keep another of our current midfielders, including Blease & Morton, out of the team - Scully is the only 'must have'.

In other words, we don't need to follow your prescription to play (or to 'list-manage') to lose every game for the rest of the season. We don't need to hope we play badly. And - thank God! - DB ain't Wallace, so the club isn't going to follow your prescription either. Whether you like it or not, every coach & every player & everyone else in the FD will be playing every game to win.

But FCS, don't take this as a disaster, it will almost certainly end up very similar, whether we get picks 1 & 2, or worst-case-scenario picks 2 & 5. Except that we can forget this stupid panic that unless we tank it will be total disaster. Playing to win will be OK, you might even get to like it.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Akum

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,780]

"What a wonderful system we have when a supporter who wants to see his team win is derided by his fellow supporters. "

Don't confuse derision with sage advice. No rationalisation justifies the health damage caused by smoking.

Who cares more about his team? The bloke who wants a few meaningless wins at this stage of the season, or the supporter with the long-term view.

Another analogy springs to mind here.....the short term glee derived from puffing a few gaspers despite the inevitable long-term heart and lung damage, compared to the superficial glow of a win or two now, costing us the possible acquisition of a Hodge and a Franklin.

But if you're just criticising the system, I couldn't agree more, and have been doing the same thing for years. It spoils supporters' enjoyment of the footy if their side hasn't got a chance of making the finals.