Drafting a Ruckman

[Carn dees 108]

If it were up to me i wouldnt be using an early draft pic on a ruckman, Lots of people seem to believe we must draft a decent ruckman particularly in this up coming draft.

IMO P.J and Jamar have shown enough to prove they can be good enough ruckman a good example was on the weekend,

P.J's around teh ground efforts and work ethic was great, sure he hasnt got the most silkiest skills but that can be worked on personally i was impressed with P.Js game. As Jamar well he would of been the most influential ruckman on the day very good return from the russian.

My point is that several teams have gone on to win premierships with barely impressive ruckman, i just think with P.J Jamar and with spencer and the moose ruckman isnt a big concern.

[Adam The God 30,420]

Well you really only have to look at the current 22s of some of the contenders - Geelong don't have Ottens and are winning every game, Hawthorn have Campbell (who is a log btw), St Kilda have two average rejects, as is the way with them. This proves you don't need a dominent Dean Cox type ruckman to be successful, even though it would be nice to have a top line ruckman too. Our two main priorities are and should be another key position forward and an elite midfielder. Concerntrate on getting those two and we'll be a powerhouse, if everyone manages to stay injury free, over the next 5 years.

[H_T 3,049]

Well you really only have to look at the current 22s of some of the contenders - Geelong don't have Ottens and are winning every game, Hawthorn have Campbell (who is a log btw), St Kilda have two average rejects, as is the way with them. This proves you don't need a dominent Dean Cox type ruckman to be successful, even though it would be nice to have a top line ruckman too. Our two main priorities are and should be another key position forward and an elite midfielder. Concentrate on getting those two and we'll be a powerhouse, if everyone manages to stay injury free, over the next 5 years.

StKilda have two very handy rejects in King and Gardiner. Gardiner is a former No.1 pick. It must be said.

I think D.Bailey has also made it quite clear, also courtesy of Whispering Jacks feedback from the Gold Coast, that a key position forward and midfielder (elite) would be on the shopping list come October.

By the looks of things on the Message board, 'drafting forum' may be required...

[Ryan Dee 140]

Ruckman are overated unless you can find a cox or kruz which is extremely rare.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,088]

Well you really only have to look at the current 22s of some of the contenders - Geelong don't have Ottens and are winning every game, Hawthorn have Campbell (who is a log btw), St Kilda have two average rejects, as is the way with them. This proves you don't need a dominent Dean Cox type ruckman to be successful, even though it would be nice to have a top line ruckman too. Our two main priorities are and should be another key position forward and an elite midfielder. Concerntrate on getting those two and we'll be a powerhouse, if everyone manages to stay injury free, over the next 5 years.

That'd be two former all-Australian ruckmen who have both had a few lean years due to injuries. They have size, skill and experience on their side and Gardiner in particular has been dominating this season. We desperately need a ruck who can give us some decent service at stoppages. You would be amazed at how much better our midfield would look if the ball was coming to the to advantage.

[darkhorse72 1,925]

A a-class midfielder who can read the oppositions tap is much more effective. Ruckmen only need to break even, where Cox excels is around the ground not in his ruck work. The best exam is the decline of west coast when they lost their two best midfielders with little else changed in their side. Fast decline as those midfielders could obtain and deliver the ball forward irrespective of who won the tap.

[1858 285]

Jamar's game on the weekend was superb for a first senior game back and King and Gardiner are no pushovers. 29 hitouts, 3 contested marks, 9 contested possessions and 6 tackles and his dominance allowed PJ to play more of a mobile game himself getting 22 possies IIRC. Our rucks aren't flash but they are good enough for the time being. If a top ruckman fell in our lap obviuously we wouldn't say no but an elite mid is critical and a KP forward not too far behind. The thing about Jamar's game (and I realise it is only 1 game) is that he could get the ball for his side. Mobility is not as critical if a ruckman uses the players around him well and this is where we must improve first with our ball carriers. Jamar isn't a go to man but more the first link in the chain who wins many taps or in this case contested possessions and lays it off with a simple hand ball - nothing flash just simple and efficient. Our ball carriers are the ones who need to improve on their use of the ball. This doesn't mean ruckmen are over rated either though, 29 hitouts to Jamar may not have gone to a Melbourne player every time but it is 29 less hitouts that the Saints won which made life harder for their on ball brigade.

[Nasher 33,617]

Jamar's game on the weekend was superb for a first senior game back and King and Gardiner are no pushovers. 29 hitouts, 3 contested marks, 9 contested possessions and 6 tackles and his dominance allowed PJ to play more of a mobile game himself getting 22 possies IIRC. Our rucks aren't flash but they are good enough for the time being. If a top ruckman fell in our lap obviuously we wouldn't say no but an elite mid is critical and a KP forward not too far behind. The thing about Jamar's game (and I realise it is only 1 game) is that he could get the ball for his side. Mobility is not as critical if a ruckman uses the players around him well and this is where we must improve first with our ball carriers. Jamar isn't a go to man but more the first link in the chain who wins many taps or in this case contested possessions and lays it off with a simple hand ball - nothing flash just simple and efficient. Our ball carriers are the ones who need to improve on their use of the ball. This doesn't mean ruckmen are over rated either though, 29 hitouts to Jamar may not have gone to a Melbourne player every time but it is 29 less hitouts that the Saints won which made life harder for their on ball brigade.

I agree with this. The ruckman's primary role is to give the smalls first use of the ball. Part of that is winning taps, but it's also about clearing space at ground level and using their large bodies to keep others out of the way. This is where Jamar is very good, and PJ is very poor. I think there's little benefit in having a ruckman who gets a lot of the ball in general play if he can't assist in the winning of the ball in the first place. PJ for mine just plays as a poor midfielder, rather than a good ruckman.

Cox is a great ruckman because he does both parts very well -- contesting at stoppages and getting the ball in general play. Kreuzer could also be in the same class -- early signs are looking good. This is what Collingwood would have hoped when drafting Josh Fraser as well.

Large bodied ruckmen who don't get a lot of the ball but contest very well (like Jamar) usually come very cheaply in the draft. While that's the case I'd continue to be loath to spend high draft picks on ruckmen, because you can usually pay a lot less for someone who does the job adequately. It'll be interesting to see who is more valuable to their side over the next few years, Kreuzer or Cotchin (depending on fitness)?

Nick Naitanui is probably an exception to all of that, thanks to his unprecedented athleticism.

[mo64 5,881]

I wouldn't use an early draft pick on a ruckman, unless the kid has exposed form at senior level footy, ie; SANFL, WAFL. It's the one position where form at TAC Cup level is speculative to whether the player will make it at AFL level.

I'd acquire a ruckman, with exposed AFL form, via a trade. Despite missing all of the season thus far through injury, Robert Warnock would be a good fit for our team.

[JACKATTACK 17]

I'd acquire a ruckman, with exposed AFL form, via a trade.

Agreed, considering the room in our salary cap I would think we could "buy" one fairly easily, but first we need to get a few things in order; a training base and to get a bit of form up to show a potential player that we are a serious club. For this reason I think we would be in a far better place to trade for a player next year not this year. This also allows us to give our younger ruckmen a chance to develop (which they need).

[dee-luded 2,959]

Jamar's game on the weekend was superb for a first senior game back and King and Gardiner are no pushovers. 29 hitouts, 3 contested marks, 9 contested possessions and 6 tackles and his dominance allowed PJ to play more of a mobile game himself getting 22 possies IIRC. Our rucks aren't flash but they are good enough for the time being. If a top ruckman fell in our lap obviuously we wouldn't say no but an elite mid is critical and a KP forward not too far behind. The thing about Jamar's game (and I realise it is only 1 game) is that he could get the ball for his side. Mobility is not as critical if a ruckman uses the players around him well and this is where we must improve first with our ball carriers. Jamar isn't a go to man but more the first link in the chain who wins many taps or in this case contested possessions and lays it off with a simple hand ball - nothing flash just simple and efficient. Our ball carriers are the ones who need to improve on their use of the ball. This doesn't mean ruckmen are over rated either though, 29 hitouts to Jamar may not have gone to a Melbourne player every time but it is 29 less hitouts that the Saints won which made life harder for their on ball brigade.

Agreed '1858'. Finally he's shown me that which I knew he had in him. I've been waiting for this show of skilled Ruck Work for a while now. This is what we need @ the Dees & I just hope he can maintain this ability from here on.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I agree with this. The ruckman's primary role is to give the smalls first use of the ball. Part of that is winning taps, but it's also about clearing space at ground level and using their large bodies to keep others out of the way. This is where Jamar is very good, and PJ is very poor. I think there's little benefit in having a ruckman who gets a lot of the ball in general play if he can't assist in the winning of the ball in the first place. PJ for mine just plays as a poor midfielder, rather than a good ruckman.

Cox is a great ruckman because he does both parts very well -- contesting at stoppages and getting the ball in general play. Kreuzer could also be in the same class -- early signs are looking good. This is what Collingwood would have hoped when drafting Josh Fraser as well.

Large bodied ruckmen who don't get a lot of the ball but contest very well (like Jamar) usually come very cheaply in the draft. While that's the case I'd continue to be loath to spend high draft picks on ruckmen, because you can usually pay a lot less for someone who does the job adequately. It'll be interesting to see who is more valuable to their side over the next few years, Kreuzer or Cotchin (depending on fitness)?

Nick Naitanui is probably an exception to all of that, thanks to his unprecedented athleticism.

Thats a great assessment IMO.

I still think that obviously we must recruit an elite midfielder & a 'power' forward with our early picks. Also I think we should draft a follower/key forward, one who can firstly ruck & play around the ground, but also hold down a key forward post. I've seen one who may fit that bill. What we do with our 2nd round & 3rd round picks will be crucial for our future climb next year & beyond.

My draft priorities would be -

Priority Pick 1 / ------------ Elite Midfielder - Tom Scully

1st Rnd / Pick 2 / ---------- Power Forward - John Butcher

2nd Rnd / 18/19/20/ ----- Ruck/Forward - Chris Wylie or similar, I think he's poss' rated around here. Mobile, excellent mark, verygood @ ground level, intelligent,

3rd Rnd / 34/35/36/ ------ Ruckman ------- Tom Hill or such,

4th Rnd ? 50/51/52/ ----- Spec pick ------- Perhaps a bottom ager who GC-17 miss?

* GC-17 have Rookie draft picks 1/2/3/4/5/ *

If there is a young ruck available to rookie, this could be an addition.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,088]

Priority Pick 1 / ------------ Elite Midfielder - Tom Scully

1st Rnd / Pick 2 / ---------- Power Forward - John Butcher

2nd Rnd / 18/19/20/ ----- Ruck/Forward - Chris Wylie or similar, I think he's poss' rated around here. Mobile, excellent mark, verygood @ ground level, intelligent,

3rd Rnd / 34/35/36/ ------ Ruckman ------- Tom Hill or such,

4th Rnd ? 50/51/52/ ----- Spec pick ------- Perhaps a bottom ager who GC-17 miss?

* GC-17 have Rookie draft picks 1/2/3/4/5/ *

If there is a young ruck available to rookie, this could be an addition.

So no chance that Fitzpatrick (I think) would drop that far? It'd be a bit of a coup if he did.

[Adam The God 30,420]

StKilda have two very handy rejects in King and Gardiner. Gardiner is a former No.1 pick. It must be said.

I think D.Bailey has also made it quite clear, also courtesy of Whispering Jacks feedback from the Gold Coast, that a key position forward and midfielder (elite) would be on the shopping list come October.

By the looks of things on the Message board, 'drafting forum' may be required...

Gardiner's not the player he was, he's slow and soft IMO.

[Rogue 585]

Whether we need a ruckman and whether we should use a early pick are two different kettles of fish.

IMO we need more rucks because ours aren't good enough.

However, I'd rather take punts on rookies/low picks every year while also keeping an eye out for a decent trade opportunity.

I made a post about how the two main rucks from each side came into the system a season or two ago and most were not early draft picks.

[dee-luded 2,959]

So no chance that Fitzpatrick (I think) would drop that far? It'd be a bit of a coup if he did.

I thought he was allright last year, but I watched him play a month or so back @ Williamstown. He was dragged & sat out a 1/3rd of the game. Not hard at it enough for mine.

I don't think he's a real ruckman nor a potent key forward. Could grow into a bit of a dinosaur in todays athletic game.

Add to that that he's had & still suffers a little Chronic Fatigue Syndrome & I think he's Too much a risk in a, not thin but rather "shortened' draft. IMO Pass.

Check out Chris Wylie, I think he will grow in popularity. 196+ cm ruck/forward.

[Demonic1964 0]

Agreed '1858'. Finally he's shown me that which I knew he had in him. I've been waiting for this show of skilled Ruck Work for a while now. This is what we need @ the Dees & I just hope he can maintain this ability from here on.

2 words - Scully, Butcher.

Nothing else to add except that if our Coach thinks these guys are it. Then why doubt ppl who are in a better position to make the call

[1858 285]

2 words - Scully, Butcher.

Nothing else to add except that if our Coach thinks these guys are it. Then why doubt ppl who are in a better position to make the call

I can't see the club not picking these two if they had the chance and I doubt anyone would argue with it either. Elite mid and a good KP forward would do very nicely.

[Jarka 767]

Two gun midfielders is very, very tempting....let's see how the u/18's pan out though first, and which picks we end up with

[1858 285]

Two gun midfielders is very, very tempting....let's see how the u/18's pan out though first, and which picks we end up with

haha very true, it pays not to think about it too hard atm.

[MelbournePassion 7]

I can't see the club not picking these two if they had the chance and I doubt anyone would argue with it either. Elite mid and a good KP forward would do very nicely.

And hopefully these two can start straight away in Round 1 instead of waiting until the 2nd half of the season. Future is looking very promising

What do you guys think of this line up

Grimes Warnock Garland

Bennell Rivers Frawley

Blease Scully Sylvia

Bate Watts Davey

Maric Butcher Wonaeamirri

Jamar Mclean Moloney

Int: Johnson,Morton,Martin,Jones

Emg: Strauss, Jurrah, Cheney

[QueenC 74]

Add to that that he's had & still suffers a little Chronic Fatigue Syndrome & I think he's Too much a risk in a, not thin but rather "shortened' draft. IMO Pass.

From someone currently battling that particular illness I can only say poor kid, and that it takes years to clear your system if it ever really does (mine won't)......

And if this is actually the case for him, then the unfortunate reality is that he may not be the best acquisition.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

My point is that several teams have gone on to win premierships with barely impressive ruckman, i just think with P.J Jamar and with spencer and the moose ruckman isnt a big concern.

I've been banging on about this for ages. I'm not quite in the Grant Thomas camp, who had less than zero respect for ruckmen. In the end it contributed to his downfall... But by the same token, I hope we don't go spending an early pick on a ruckman. It's just too much of a long-distance prediction that the player is going to turn out ok. Early picks, IMO, shouldn't be too speculative. If you're going to go for a tall, you'd have to hope they'd be spectacularly talented, a la Watts. Otherwise going for players like Rich who are a known entity is a safe bet at the other end of the spectrum. Even Naita, who can do things no-one who's ever played the game can do, was considered speculative to a degree.

I will say that had we taken Vickery I'd have been thrilled. As I reckon he's the closest thing to a ready-made ruckman that's been seen in a long time. (notice I say "closest")

I thought Jeff White, circa early 2000s, was exactly the ruckman we would want. Maybe with a few centimetres more height. Gets his fair share of taps, more than his fair share often, and got PLENTY of the sherrin around the ground. PJ has elements of Jeff's game.

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