Butcher?

[titan_uranus 25,215]

  High Tower said:

Jonathon Brown and Daniel Bradshaw (Brisbane)

Lance Franklin and Jarryd Roughead (Hawthorn)

David Hale / Drew Petrie (Nth Melb)

Will Minson / Mitch Hahn (Footscray*)

Cam Mooney / Brad Ottens (Geelong)

Matthew Lloyd / Scott Lucas / David Hille (Essendon)

Nick Riewoldt / Justin Koschitzke (St Kilda)

Well you could go another way and look at the premiers and their forwards:

Hawthorn 2008 - Franklin and Roughead

Geelong 2007 - Mooney and ???

West Coast 2006 - ??? and ???

So both arguments suffice. And at any rate, I think our midfield is more of an issue. A decent midfield would make our forward line look a lot better.

[torpedo 33]

  High Tower said:

Jonathon Brown and Daniel Bradshaw (Brisbane)

Lance Franklin and Jarryd Roughead (Hawthorn)

David Hale / Drew Petrie (Nth Melb)

Will Minson / Mitch Hahn (Footscray*)

Cam Mooney / Brad Ottens (Geelong)

Matthew Lloyd / Scott Lucas / David Hille (Essendon)

Nick Riewoldt / Justin Koschitzke (St Kilda)

Shall I continue?............Hardly outdated.

Firstly, thats a lame list, Hale? Minson & Hahn? Ottens? Hille? I thought we were talking about power forwards? You're clutching at straws. I compare premiership teams, not unproven teams.

Secondly, when I said it was an outdated model I am referring to the belief that you must subscribe to that model to win a premiership. If you have 2 gun key forwards that can function together in the same forward line then thats great and I have never said otherwise, but there is nothing that suggests you have to have that to win a premiership. You only need to skim over recent premiership sides to see this.

Premiership winners in recent years with 2 gun power forwards are the Lions & Hawks, thats it. Compare that with the Power, Swans, Eagles & Cats. Its quite clear from that that you do not need 2 monster forwards to win a premiership. What is the common theme in all premiership teams is a dominant midfield. You cannot win premerships without that.

  Al`s DEMONS said:

thanks mate ,but they still wont listen, people have forgotten Blease and Strauss are yet to play

Thats a good start. We are still missing a superstar inside / outside midfielder though. Nobody on our list fits that criteria. They are not a 'dime a dozen' like everybody says, the best ones mostly come from very high picks.

Scully looks to be 10x the footballer Butcher is, you'd be a fool to pass up on Scully based on 'needs' when you don't even have a player that plays like Scully. That makes no sense at all.

[Bay Riffin 1,509]

  titan_uranus said:

Well you could go another way and look at the premiers and their forwards:

Hawthorn 2008 - Franklin and Roughead

Geelong 2007 - Mooney and ???

West Coast 2006 - ??? and ???

So both arguments suffice. And at any rate, I think our midfield is more of an issue. A decent midfield would make our forward line look a lot better.

Hawthorn 2008 - Franklin and Roughead

Geelong 2007 - Mooney and Nathan Ablett

West Coast 2006 - Lynch and Ashley Hansen

like him or not Lynch kicked 60 plus goals that year and Hansen was PIVOTAL to their year.

Have no doubt Ablett would have delivered the cats a premiership in 2008.

Brisbane - Brown and Lynch

Come to think of it we really will need another tall forward.

[torpedo 33]

  Al`s DEMONS said:

for all in favour of one tall forward in the forward please answer this, why do we play four talls in defence?

Of course we will play with 2 tall forwards. Nobody would suggest playing with only 1 tall forward, that would be dumb.

You are suggesting we must use Pick 1 on securing another gun goal kicking power forward. We already have one in Watts.

The 2nd tall forward doesn't have to be a player of anywhere near that calibre, they are simply another big body to compliment the goal kickers around them.

[1858 285]

  digga said:

You dont need 2 power forwards to win flag. Look at geelong they are good enough and there forward line has one OK tall. Yes hawthorn have 2 but geelong are the best and they dont really have great big forwards. Midfield Midfield Midfield. If ya have a good midfield all a forward needs to do is mark the ball when is delievered on there chest

Firstly, we are not Geelong.

Secondly, the fact they only had one main tall forward option was not by their choice. They are continually developing Hawkins and Lonergan to be alternative options for the long term. It is called playing the percentages and it is also about redundancy in case you cop key injuries.

Thirdly, your midfield is going to have off days and there is no substitue for quality and (tall) options up forward to get you over the line in games throughout the season.

Forthly, you don't put all the pressure on one tall forward especially if they are young. It is no good for them and it makes your attack too predictable.

Fifth, having multiple tall options stretches the oppositions defence - they may have one quality medium/tall defender but do they have two?

If you have the option to make your forward line as dangerous as it can be then you do it.

[Demons 32 235]

Jack Watts had a good team to....

[Bay Riffin 1,509]

  Demons 32 said:

Jack Watts had a good team to....

so can anyone enlighten us on Butcher? I can only see one youtube highlights on him and that contains very little to base a decision on.

[Freak 100]

butcher is the new key forward prototype. 196cm, and potentially still growing. he is skinny, but is stupidly brave in terms of going back with the flight of the ball etc. He can pluck the footy with one hand like a loaf of bread as jarred brennan does and he is an okay set shot. not great but good.

[H_T 3,049]

  torpedo said:

Firstly, thats a lame list, Hale? Minson & Hahn? Ottens? Hille? I thought we were talking about power forwards? You're clutching at straws. I compare premiership teams, not unproven teams.

Well then next time stipulate 'premiership teams' in your post torpedo. Ottens not powerful enough for you?

[Tim 3,540]

you'd be a fool to pass up on Scully based on 'needs'

Why do the words Luke Molan come to mind, closely followed by Nick Dal Santo.....

(Btw, that means I agree in principle with the italics).

[dee-luded 2,959]

  Freak said:

butcher is the new key forward prototype. 196cm, and potentially still growing. he is skinny, but is stupidly brave in terms of going back with the flight of the ball etc. He can pluck the footy with one hand like a loaf of bread as jarred brennan does and he is an okay set shot. not great but good.

I like what I've seen on 'Butcher', but these days the game has changed, to require more agile athletic players. IMO you still need two talls with a 3rd strong medium sized marking option plus your assorted small players. One strong marking option doesn't cut it for me, & apparently most coaches.

But these days the talls don't have to be mongrel monsters, - Lockett, JBrown, BHall, but the Riewoldt/Kosinski model I think works allright if you have the 3rd strong marking option (Robbo/Bate?/Jurrah?) + other power/height in the ruck division.

What i'm not sure of re Butcher is if he is quick & agile enough?

We still must get a gun midfielder with adequate+ speed, probably with our 1st pick. Maybe with our picks 1 & 2.

I think Jack Fitzpatrick might still be around toward the latter part of the 1st round?, & no doubt there will be others.

[Guest JACKtheRIPPER]

  steveheals said:

I agree. I want to see us win games (more than 4). And it's only round 4 we should not think about draft picks when we (technically) can still make the finals.

thats the dumbest thing iv ever read, pick 1 and 2 you must be joking, you dont want the best kids in the land, finals, if we dont get those to picks you can forget about finals for the next decade.

[Adelaide Demon 0]

Seeing as we're talking about who we should draft and not just this Butcher fellow who I have never heard of, surely we need a gun ruckman, don't we? I mean Jamar and Johnson combined couldn't win their way out of a paper bag, Meesen, who knows, but you wouldn't think he's going to be the next Cox, and Spencer the same. And Stefan Martin is looking like he could develop into a key-position defender, not a ruckman.

[Hannabal 4]

  AdelaideDemon said:

Seeing as we're talking about who we should draft and not just this Butcher fellow who I have never heard of, surely we need a gun ruckman, don't we? I mean Jamar and Johnson combined couldn't win their way out of a paper bag, Meesen, who knows, but you wouldn't think he's going to be the next Cox, and Spencer the same. And Stefan Martin is looking like he could develop into a key-position defender, not a ruckman.

We need a good ruckman amongst many things. But at what cost ? I'd never use pick 1 on a ruckman. They're just too subjective and even if the return ends up being high it takes a long time to cash in your chips.

You talk of the next Cox and it's worth noting that he was a rookie. As was Jolly. How many ruckmen have gone pick 1 in the draft ? The ones that spring to mind are Matthew Kreuzer, Josh Fraser, Michael Gardiner and Jeff White. The jury is still out on Kreuzer, but I doubt he'll be the best of his draft, and 'no thanks' to the others. Not for pick 1 anyway. Cox and Hille dominated last year, but their teams came bottom 4. I rate Tyrone Vickery, but he's currently playing for Coburg seconds. It's a long haul for a skinny young ruck. Hawthorn won a flag with a basic ruck duo, but at least they competed. And that's the key.

We lack genuine class where the game is won - the midfield. It's our most pressing need now that Watts is developing.

[1858 285]

  Hannabal said:

We need a good ruckman amongst many things. But at what cost ? I'd never use pick 1 on a ruckman. They're just too subjective and even if the return ends up being high it takes a long time to cash in your chips.

You talk of the next Cox and it's worth noting that he was a rookie. As was Jolly. How many ruckmen have gone pick 1 in the draft ? The ones that spring to mind are Matthew Kreuzer, Josh Fraser, Michael Gardiner and Jeff White. The jury is still out on Kreuzer, but I doubt he'll be the best of his draft, and 'no thanks' to the others. Not for pick 1 anyway. Cox and Hille dominated last year, but their teams came bottom 4. I rate Tyrone Vickery, but he's currently playing for Coburg seconds. It's a long haul for a skinny young ruck. Hawthorn won a flag with a basic ruck duo, but at least they competed. And that's the key.

We lack genuine class where the game is won - the midfield. It's our most pressing need now that Watts is developing.

Very well argued.

I have no idea of the impending talent out there with regards to this years draft - in fact just talking about it (in April) will probably give me a head ache. All I'll say on the matter at this point in time is that our priorities must rest on at least 1 gun inside mid with pace, skills etc and a more than capable tall forward as a 2nd option to Watts - as another poster stated, agility will be important. We have Jurrah but we quite simply have to treat him as a project player (as Bailey referred to him) so high expectations at this time are pointless. No doubt the closer we get to the draft this year we will all have some insight as to who the best prospects are.

[NoOthaDemon 0]

I believe if we do fail to win more than 4 games, Pick No.1 & 2 will be used on Scully and Butcher. Scully is almost a given, a classy player who will almost walk into our 22. I haven't seen much of Butcher, but although the midfield is a little lackluster our forward line is terrible at the moment. Watts will certainly become a 80 goal a year player, but if we do have just one power-forward it would make our game a little predictable. Having another power forward gives our midfield another option to use. So i believe that a forward must certainly be looked at as a high pick in the draft. If Butcher is the best on offer, than we should pick him up. But no doubt Scully is cut ahead of the rest. Is there anyone else is Victoria who is setting the VFL on fire atm? Here is SA there's no real youngster who could be touted as a Number 1 pick.

[torpedo 33]

  High Tower said:

Well then next time stipulate 'premiership teams' in your post torpedo. Ottens not powerful enough for you?

Building a premiership list underlies all draft discussions, it doesn't need to be stipulated. If you want to use the Brisbane, North Melbourne, Doggies & Bombers 2009 forward structures as examples of how to build a premiership team thats your loss.

You know that Ottens is not a power forward, why are you pretending otherwise?

[torpedo 33]

  Hannabal said:

We need a good ruckman amongst many things. But at what cost ? I'd never use pick 1 on a ruckman... Hawthorn won a flag with a basic ruck duo, but at least they competed. And that's the key.

We lack genuine class where the game is won - the midfield. It's our most pressing need now that Watts is developing.

Spot on.

[Jarka 767]

H is right, don't use the first pick on a ruckman, not worth the risk. Vickery is a little different though because of his ability to go forward but that's a different argument entirely.

At this stage Scully, Butcher and Lucas would probably be the leading three, but as Jack Watts showed us last year a year is a long time in footy, best to have this conversation after the national u/18's comp.

With regards to what to go for I've changed my mind a little. For example if Scully and Lucas look like the two best at the end of the year (I presuming we get a PP) then I'm all for getting them. I don't care what position we get, I just want the two best kids available. Two gun midfielders who have great disposal and can break the lines would make me very, very happy. Having said that, if Butcher continues to impress it would be hard to pass on him.

[H_T 3,049]

  torpedo said:

Building a premiership list underlies all draft discussions, it doesn't need to be stipulated. If you want to use the Brisbane, North Melbourne, Doggies & Bombers 2009 forward structures as examples of how to build a premiership team thats your loss.

You know that Ottens is not a power forward, why are you pretending otherwise?

Stay on topic, please. They were not examples of forward structures of how to build a premiership team, they were examples of power forwards of teams, which was clearly stated. You've failed to mention the likes of Franklin/Roughead, Lloyd/Lucas and Brown/Bradshaw etc, etc which were also in my post, to suit your own argument. If Ottens is not a KPP/Ruck, I'll go he. I'm not pretending nor hiding anything.

[e25 5]

  NoOthaDemon said:

I believe if we do fail to win more than 4 games, Pick No.1 & 2 will be used on Scully and Butcher. Scully is almost a given, a classy player who will almost walk into our 22. I haven't seen much of Butcher, but although the midfield is a little lackluster our forward line is terrible at the moment. Watts will certainly become a 80 goal a year player, but if we do have just one power-forward it would make our game a little predictable. Having another power forward gives our midfield another option to use. So i believe that a forward must certainly be looked at as a high pick in the draft. If Butcher is the best on offer, than we should pick him up. But no doubt Scully is cut ahead of the rest. Is there anyone else is Victoria who is setting the VFL on fire atm? Here is SA there's no real youngster who could be touted as a Number 1 pick.

It fascinates me how so many people expect Watts to be a goal-kicking force.

I fully expect Watts at his peak to lead the league in goal-assists, kicking only about 50-60 himself.

A Butcher type (that is, a player that fits Butcher's reputation) would be the perfect compliment to Jack Watts in my mind... but I'm more than prepared to accept that Butcher might not be as good as the hype and then just go for the best available midfielder.

Maybe we can do with a horde of elite midfielders, and in 3 years' time we can do like Geelong & trade for Leuenberger who will take ownership of the ruck mantle once we get him.

Oh, the tragic things that I dream of...

[Yze_Magic 3]

  Enforcer25 said:

It fascinates me how so many people expect Watts to be a goal-kicking force.

I fully expect Watts at his peak to lead the league in goal-assists, kicking only about 50-60 himself.

I expect something better than a Cameron Mooney clone from the first pick in the draft.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

  Neita3000 said:

Can we please stop talking about draft picks please.

Ummm. No. I started talking about next years draftees about 15 minutes after Bail's name was called.

The real die hards know about the big names 2 years before the draft day, sometimes a lot more. Don't you know the H&A season is really just a precursor to the real stuff?

Though I will say that yes, this thread and others like it should be moved to the "drafting and trading" page... If it still existed.

As for the topic, I love the idea of taking 2 mids with the first two picks. Enough of this waiting for our KP players and ruckmen to develop. I want a finished product that we can assess and basically KNOW they're right to step into the big time. A Palmer/Rich would be fine by me...

That and Scully, obviously, who just has to be a demon.

[e25 5]

  Yze_Magic said:

I expect something better than a Cameron Mooney clone from the first pick in the draft.

Didn't say he'll be a Cameron Mooney clone.

I think he'll spend too much time playing upfield, but he'll create more goals than you could imagine.

He'll be capable of kicking them himself, but the opposition will know this and he'll use his smarts & vision to find his teammates alone in front of goal.

Just crystal ball gazing.

[titan_uranus 25,215]

  Bay Riffin said:

Hawthorn 2008 - Franklin and Roughead

Geelong 2007 - Mooney and Nathan Ablett

West Coast 2006 - Lynch and Ashley Hansen

like him or not Lynch kicked 60 plus goals that year and Hansen was PIVOTAL to their year.

Have no doubt Ablett would have delivered the cats a premiership in 2008.

I'll give you Hansen, he was pivotal. But Lynch and Ablett are average players. And how do you think Lynch got his 60 goals? A super midfield. Without that supply, Lynch would never have done as well as he did.

  Hannabal said:

We lack genuine class where the game is won - the midfield. It's our most pressing need now that Watts is developing.

Agree.