Cheesy D. Pun

Our obsession with the draft is what got us into this mess.

Only if you replace him with a higher quality senior player, Like the op says, we are short on these older guys and we're trying to fill the void with fringe players from other clubs/VFL. We can not afford to keep losing senior players. We got into this mess because we held onto too many senior players for too long under Daniher and then we had a mass exodus that left us with nothing. I've heard criticism of the appointments of our young captains but the reality is that they are the best leaders at our club. We can't make rational judgements on Bailey or Neeld's coaching abilities as both have been given zero to work with. The club needs quality senior players to be competitive - not even the expansion teams have as few senior players as MFC does. Neeld has attempted to do this and I applaud it and at the same time, I wonder, what more he could do. We need quality senior mids, there were very few available and I imagine he asked the question to any that were. Also, so much of a young players improvement is based on his peers, not his teachers. When Toumpas, Viney and co. walked into this club, who were the guys of which you'd say "He's been here for ten years, he's like a father figure". There is not one. There should be 4/5. Our obsession with draft picks has come at a high price.

It was called '8mm' but your point is still relevant.

Last night was horrible. I don't expect wins at this stage but some effort would be nice. I'm running on the theory that it was all an Essendon conspiracy. Send in double agents (Daniher and Bailey) to do their worst and leave us to die. Gets me through. Ugghh.

Clearly, other issues play a part. There's a certain concensus about most of these picks. It's a pretty easy game picking holes in the recruiting of a team when they aren't going well. I believe that, if another club had made the selections that MFC have made over the past decade, they'd be in a very different place.

They're the same guys who pushed out malthouse for nathan buckley yeah?

We need to support our club not trash it by demanding the sacking of coach after coach. What does this achieve?

Awesome Spine!

Yes.

When you take a person's actions and hold them up to the standards that you apply to yourself, it shows a complete lack of empathy. Liam's life experiences are very different to mine and I can only attempt to imagine what choices I'd make in his circumstances. I love footy, love the Dees but in the end, it's just a game. Blistering pretty much nails it here;

That quote is gold. Using a guy that's played 0 games as a reference point to demonstrate a player's ability is genius.

I think the changes to our list are great long-term but I would suggest there's a bit of pain to go through yet. I think we'll start to see some good footy in the latter part of this season. While a new list is reason for optimism it's also a step back in the short term as far as team chemistry and game plan comprehension goes. Having said that, I'm really looking forward to 2013.

Contrary to recent reports, I don't think Toumpas will be available.

Yep, probably didn't express myself as well as I could have with that initial post. Of course we aren't the only ones who should be under the microscope.

RP, All of the technical aspects of your argument may well be correct and as CB (below) has pointed out, my understanding of the definition of tanking is lacking. I just feel duped by those involved in us 'minimising our chances'. I seem to be in minority here but it really grates on me that I support a football club that essentially worked on the notion that we aren't good enough so let's just manipulate the system to gain assets. I understand that this is one of the traits of modern sport but it just seems alien to me.

I'll take the hit about my attitude but surely moving ruckmen to play on small forwards in order to shift the game momentum or benching players who are threatening to take the game by the throat equates to some form of tanking. I love MFC but I also quite like the game and would hate to think that this would become the norm. Whatever you call it, I don't think there's anything admirable about it.

Let's be honest, we deserve to have picks taken off us. We've had high draft picks for most of a decade. How many more do we need?? Personally, I'd rather we just take our whack and get on with it. The reality is that taking pick 4 away would be getting off lightly considering we gained 1 or 2 (depending on how you look at it) by intentionally losing matches. The AFL should take pick 4 off us and move onto the next club. Having this thing hanging over our heads no good for a club that is finally starting to get itself together.

David Schwarz. Love the idea of seeing him get a second chance. Could have been anything.

Grimesy is married!

I agree with that RPFC, but I do think the roles the new guys fill are pretty important ones, particularly Mcintosh, if his body is up to it.

Mcintosh, Rivers and Caddy. I'm happy with what MFC has done and it's given us a really clear idea of the coaches vision but Geelong have also had a pretty good trade week that fills a couple of quite significant holes for them. What do others think? Will this give them enough to play finals?

Pederson could play that role couldn't he?

Based on the small amount of video publicly available I really like the look of Wines. In particular, his decision making looks top notch.

There's no point bringing in all of this elite talent through the draft if there is no senior players to guide them through. That's not to say that Dawes and/or Wellingham bring that but there is a point where we need to break free of the draft system to bring in experienced players.

I don't know about this concept of us being terrible at chosing the right talent. There is always some level of concensus across the board on draft days. Surely, our lack of success is more significantly influenced by other areas, for example, our development of players within the club? What I find most interesting about this whole saga is the commitment made to JV before MN came on board. I think having him photographed wearing demons gear etc., a year or 2 before we know where he's going to play, seems rather unprofessional and laid our cards out on the table in an antagonistic manner. I would love to see JV at Melbourne but I would be slightly sceptical about our process if he were picked at no.3. The fact that his name is Viney and we have made a semi-commitment shouldn't influence who we pick at 3.