Players available in the PSD

[Jarka 767]

I don't see the point in drafting untrieds in the PSD. You might as well just draft them in the ND or the RD if you think they're worth anything. It just seems to defeat the purpose of the PSD to me.

In my opinion some of the younger guys running around in the VFL have more potential than rejects from an AFL list. Some guys simply develop at a later age, Woewoedin being a prime example.

Just my humble opinion though

edit: the nd is for the kids from the u/18's, rookie for the kids that missed out on the nd

[Nasher 33,616]

edit: the nd is for the kids from the u/18's, rookie for the kids that missed out on the nd

No, anyone who is not on an AFL club list can nominate for the ND, that's why we were able to pick up previously listed duds like Moorcroft and Funcke in the ND, as well as Ryan Ferguson who was a mature aged player playing in the VFL. It's why Ashley Sampi is eligible -- no longer on an AFL list. As far as I know, there's nothing to stop you or I for nominating for the ND if we wanted to, except I doubt either of us would get drafted.

The only differences between the PSD and the ND are that currently uncontracted, listed players can nominate, and a player can put a price on his head. That's why if you're picking someone untried, I think you may as well pick them up in the ND and just pass in the PSD.

[Slartibartfast 17,336]

However, he does have shades of Byron about him, minus all the medals!

What? His colour?

Sampi has everything to prove, Byron had nothing. Sampi will cost very little in salary, Bryon cost a lot. Sampi has a long term future, Byron didn't. We had high expectations of Byron who didn't deliver. We don't have those expectations with Sampi.

Sampi is a completely different proposition.

[Redleg 40,973]

What? His colour?

Sampi has everything to prove, Byron had nothing. Sampi will cost very little in salary, Bryon cost a lot. Sampi has a long term future, Byron didn't. We had high expectations of Byron who didn't deliver. We don't have those expectations with Sampi.

Sampi is a completely different proposition.

Have you given any thought to changing your avatar?

[Jaded No More 68,966]

What? His colour?

Yeah, that's the similarity . Very offended that you'd think that!

They are both very talented, but they both have off field issues and fitness issues.

I understand that Sampi won't cost us as much, but there is a huge chance that the outcome will be the same.

Byron may not have had a lot to prove, but he had a real reason to sort himself out for the sake of his kids and family.

Sampi is incredibly lazy and has serious commitment issues, the fact that he couldn't get a game ahead of Armstrong, is a big worry.

Of course if the club decided to take the risk, that'd be fine by me, but if he can't get motivated to get a game with a successful club like West Coast, a club ridden with footballers who have issues, than what hope does he have with us?

[rpfc 28,539]

He is a talented boy. We should back ourselves to get something out of him.

Not sure whether I want him in the PSD or ND, easier to get him in the PSD but we might want someone who is out of contract. If there are any left.

[redman 28]

I think Sampi would be a low risk

Hes 23 and only stopped playing due to personal issues not lack of ability...

Appears to have the determination to turn his life around, keen to move interstate to change his lifestyle whether he plays footy next year or not.

Will play for minimum wage, slightly above that of a 3rd round pick.. again proves hes keen again just to play.

If hes available in the psd then hes worth a shot...

[Jarka 767]

No, anyone who is not on an AFL club list can nominate for the ND, that's why we were able to pick up previously listed duds like Moorcroft and Funcke in the ND, as well as Ryan Ferguson who was a mature aged player playing in the VFL. It's why Ashley Sampi is eligible -- no longer on an AFL list. As far as I know, there's nothing to stop you or I for nominating for the ND if we wanted to, except I doubt either of us would get drafted.

The only differences between the PSD and the ND are that currently uncontracted, listed players can nominate, and a player can put a price on his head. That's why if you're picking someone untried, I think you may as well pick them up in the ND and just pass in the PSD.

Yeah, I understand how the nd works, a player can also put a price on their head in the nd as well (see T.Cloke). Moorcroft, Funcke and Ferguson are excellent examples of why we should stick to untried u/18's in the nd.

[Hannabal 4]

Yeah, that's the similarity . Very offended that you'd think that!

What's wrong with comparing Aboriginal footballers ? Now they may not be overly similar from a playing style but why would you be so "offended" by the suggestion ?

I know I wouldn't. We're so careful to be seen to be reasonable and above reproach in today's society that we're defensive when we need not be.

[Jaded No More 68,966]

What's wrong with comparing Aboriginal footballers ? Now they may not be overly similar from a playing style but why would you be so "offended" by the suggestion ?

I know I wouldn't. We're so careful to be seen to be reasonable and above reproach in today's society that we're defensive in when we need not be.

You know that's not what he was insinuating, as he said "colour".

Don't think I was being defensive, just explaining my position.

IMO Sampi has a lot of issues that I can't see him overcoming. Happy for us to pick him up, and for him to prove me wrong though, as he does have unique and freaky talents (which yes, are often common amongst indigenous players).

[Hannabal 4]

You know that's not what he was insinuating, as he said "colour".

Yeah. So ?

They're black.

[Slartibartfast 17,336]

You know that's not what he was insinuating, as he said "colour".

Don't think I was being defensive, just explaining my position.

IMO Sampi has a lot of issues that I can't see him overcoming. Happy for us to pick him up, and for him to prove me wrong though, as he does have unique and freaky talents (which yes, are often common amongst indigenous players).

Storm in a teacup guys. I was just feeding off your use of the word "shades" Jaded. No offense intended and apologies if anyone took any. For what it's worth I tend to agree with H and I get a bit sick of political correctness.

[Jaded No More 68,966]

Yeah. So ?

They're black.

And yet that doesn't make them similar in any way, shape or form as footballers.

It's the other 'shape' issue that makes them similar

But yeah, storm in a teacup.

Edit: Just saw on Ch.10 that Sampi has been offered the chance to come and train with us, so we're obviously keen. Lets see how badly he wants it!

[sylvinator 96]

im not surprised we're interested in sampi.

we are in desperate need on a small cruming forward to help out davey and release davey more to half forward, rather than at the fullforward's toes...

this can be seen by our recruitment of Weetra AND Hayes in last years draft...oh how i wish we'd taken Alwyn davey a year earlier when he did a preseason with us...

anyways, dont be surprised if we take Addam Maric with pick 21 if he's still available- he's a freakishly accurate and exciting small/median forward. Also dont be surprised if the name Marlin Motlop is called out at pick 53 if he's still there (unlikely).

Sampi is not really such a risk...taking him at pick 69 or something is a nothing pick. the truth is, though the very occasional Bartram or Westoff comes off with such late picks, 9 times out of 10 an 18 yr old picked up so late in the draft will turn out delisted after 2 years (re: heath neville).

if sampi got his mind right, then he would be a great asset for years to come. if he is fit and motivated, he is clearly in our starting 18 in the forward pocket. thats the truth.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

I am not sure what the Pagan touch is as I have given 3 significant talented and troubled footballers who Pagan has failed to change or manage.

I understand the issue with managing misbehaving footballers I dont think the label is at all accurate. I am not sure Sheedy or Matthews are necessarily better replacements.

Ok. The three you mentioned, Carey - arguably the best of all time. Pike, a lazy four premierships (though I give you that one, Pagan, it seems, didn't have a WHOLE lot to do with his success) and Fevola, who whether you agree or not, I think should be proud of his career thus far. He was all but gone according to MANY Blues fans I know, and when Pagan arrived much has been said of his effect on Fevola's career. That's 2 from 3 as far as I'm concerned, as well as Pike being a player who DID come around eventually.

But you're entitled to your opinion. As far as I'm concerned I'll remember Pagan as a coach that was a disciplinarian, and an old-fashioned hard at it type who was able to control players who were previously regarded difficult, and turn them into premiership players, coleman medallists etc etc. And I'm not the only one that thinks so.

The Sheedy example was referencing the fact that he had a lot of rough players, particularly around 2000 when they were by miles the most reported team in the AFL. He was able to channel their violence usefully, and again got the most out of them, and Matthews got HEAPS out of a guy like Pike, and equally got the most out of his tough nuts...

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Ok. The three you mentioned, Carey - arguably the best of all time. Pike, a lazy four premierships (though I give you that one, Pagan, it seems, didn't have a WHOLE lot to do with his success) and Fevola, who whether you agree or not, I think should be proud of his career thus far. He was all but gone according to MANY Blues fans I know, and when Pagan arrived much has been said of his effect on Fevola's career. That's 2 from 3 as far as I'm concerned, as well as Pike being a player who DID come around eventually.

But you're entitled to your opinion. As far as I'm concerned I'll remember Pagan as a coach that was a disciplinarian, and an old-fashioned hard at it type who was able to control players who were previously regarded difficult, and turn them into premiership players, coleman medallists etc etc. And I'm not the only one that thinks so.

The Sheedy example was referencing the fact that he had a lot of rough players, particularly around 2000 when they were by miles the most reported team in the AFL. He was able to channel their violence usefully, and again got the most out of them, and Matthews got HEAPS out of a guy like Pike, and equally got the most out of his tough nuts...

Fevola, Pike and Carey are all footballers with substantial ability who used it in various ways and varying levels. However they did so without Pagan having any impact on their off field problems which in some cases ultimately consumed or undermined their careers. You measure the success of players in terms of a metric of on field performance. Pagan has an enviable record as Coach but he has done nothing to earn the reputation of the "touch". All three players have bucketloads of ability which Pagan tapped for on field success. All three have substantial social problems linked to their football that Pagan did nothing for. Pagan tolerated all this crap for football success but did nothing to turn troubled players around.

Its interesting that Pike and Carey were both sacked on terms of their off field behaviour while Pagan was there. Fevola is at the crossroads of his career. Fevola is a head case who can play football but is a cancer in the Blues culture. He either shapes up this year or they should trade him at the first instant. He is damaged goods and is as more of an off field problem than he has ever been.

Sheedy had a side that was prepared to attack the ball at ever contest coupled with a back bone of out and out stars Hird, FLetcher and Lloyd. Nothing strange there.

Pike was a very talented footballer who was also a perennially off field violent person with a drinking problem. He was only really focussed as a footballer during the premiership runs at North and Brisbane (one of the best sides put together). He would have to have been the luckiest players ever to play the game participating in four flags. There have been many better who have not played in one. Sacked by three clubs. Another club imploded on him but there were troubles there. Picked up in 2 PSDs by a premiership club and another Club on the verge of greatness. When there was not the sniff of premiership glory he repeatedly self destructed. No midas touch there

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Jesus...

Ok. I never said Pagan was going to fix anyone's problems off-field. What I'm saying is that if there's a player with social issues that become public, and become a drain on the club, Pagan was still able to AT LEAST get them to play good footy while they were at it. And I'm not Robinson crusoe. I couldn't count the amount of times Carlton supporter mates (and I have WAY too many of them) looked at a player that had discipline problems and found them an attractive prospect because they believed Dennis had shown a propensity to be able to unearth gold.

In my book, that's a good thing, especially for our club. We seem to have had a couple of little things in recent years, rumours of drugs (where AREN'T there rumours of drugs), a player with weight and discipline problems and also some with gambling issues. Granted many of these aren't at the club anymore, but I'm not naive enough to suggest there won't be further problems in the years to come. The point is, I'd like to see DB be able to get the most out of these players ON THE FIELD. In other words, to have the Pagan "touch." What I've seen is that Melbourne is not strong, or vast enough to apply the pressure to these players to at least get them to do their jobs. Perhaps it's a focus issue, ie a coach can INSPIRE the unruly on gameday, or maybe cater to their egos, tell them off when they need it, sit them down and talk to them when they need it etc etc

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Jesus...

Ok. I never said Pagan was going to fix anyone's problems off-field. What I'm saying is that if there's a player with social issues that become public, and become a drain on the club, Pagan was still able to AT LEAST get them to play good footy while they were at it. And I'm not Robinson crusoe. I couldn't count the amount of times Carlton supporter mates (and I have WAY too many of them) looked at a player that had discipline problems and found them an attractive prospect because they believed Dennis had shown a propensity to be able to unearth gold.

In my book, that's a good thing, especially for our club. We seem to have had a couple of little things in recent years, rumours of drugs (where AREN'T there rumours of drugs), a player with weight and discipline problems and also some with gambling issues. Granted many of these aren't at the club anymore, but I'm not naive enough to suggest there won't be further problems in the years to come. The point is, I'd like to see DB be able to get the most out of these players ON THE FIELD. In other words, to have the Pagan "touch." What I've seen is that Melbourne is not strong, or vast enough to apply the pressure to these players to at least get them to do their jobs. Perhaps it's a focus issue, ie a coach can INSPIRE the unruly on gameday, or maybe cater to their egos, tell them off when they need it, sit them down and talk to them when they need it etc etc

But what each Pagan example has shown and the recent WCE debacle has clearly shown that enduring success ON THE FIELD can only be achieved by ensuring the OFF FIELD issues are resolved. Whatever the Pagan touch was, it is clearly flawed. And given DB's experience I am sure he is aware of this. I agree with you about MFC problems, I hope DB has a more sensible approach such matters.

BTW, Pagan failed with Angwin and Norman as well. Given the strike rate he has had at Carlton he has struck alot of fools gold and your Carlton mates have clearly been chuffed by it. Carlton have been absolute crap over the past 5 years with an appalling skill level. Some of this can be sheeted home to Pagan. Its also clear from Koutas and Campo's comments Pagan managed to alienate much of the core playing group. So much for the "touch".

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

But what each Pagan example has shown and the recent WCE debacle has clearly shown that enduring success ON THE FIELD can only be achieved by ensuring the OFF FIELD issues are resolved. Whatever the Pagan touch was, it is clearly flawed. And given DB's experience I am sure he is aware of this. I agree with you about MFC problems, I hope DB has a more sensible approach such matters.

That's a good point about the off-field/on field stuff. However...

I don't rate Pagan as a coach. Not anymore. I think the game went past him, and his methods and stubbornness caught up with him. Maybe his pride in being a previous champion coach as well. Maybe what he saw as pride and iron will, others believed were just pride and pig-headedness...

Regardless of this I can see how you may think I was in Pagan's corner. I can scarcely think of a coach I'd was LESS than Pagan. But I cannot help but admire what he did with Fevola. Not only was it impressive to see him turn him into an effective player, but to snag him a coleman in a side like that is almost a miracle. It's not the fact that he made him play well, it's that he made him play in such a way that I NEVER thought he was capable of playing. As good as this effect was, I still wouldn't want PAGAN, but I would want the effect he brought out of a player like this. Whatever it was. Bottle it. And unlike you, I don't believe on field and off field harmony is even possible. In fact, all I want is a flag, and West Coast proved that you can win one with some of the WORST cancers going around in modern footy. It's the way these spot fires are handled that gives me faith. It's a dicey game I'll agree... On one hand you could recruit a nutcase and he could contribute to 3 flags for you (Pike) and on the other hand you could retain an addict who embarrasses your club and leaves in disgrace (who else?). All I'm saying is I would like to see these players, and they WILL be there, our huge list turnover will assure of that, are handled in such a way that they can do good things on the field.

BTW, Pagan failed with Angwin and Norman as well. Given the strike rate he has had at Carlton he has struck alot of fools gold and your Carlton mates have clearly been chuffed by it. Carlton have been absolute crap over the past 5 years with an appalling skill level. Some of this can be sheeted home to Pagan. Its also clear from Koutas and Campo's comments Pagan managed to alienate much of the core playing group. So much for the "touch".

This is true. Like I said, Pagan aint my man... Jesus, I'd recruit myself to coach before him.

Here's hoping that DB has that little bit of mongrel, that level of understanding where he can keep a player on track without spending too much time with him at the detriment of the rest of the list. So much is up in the air, and this is a CRITICAL time for MFC. There's only so many body-blows you can take when you're not winning any games. DB will need an iron resolve in the early years...

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Its interesting about Fevola.

His Coleman medal in a crap year is testimony to his ability to perform. The pity is that he has managed to also self destruct on and off the field. He should be an elite player but is a head case that destructively compromises his natural ability. Very much damaged goods.

Pike is 200 game 4 premiership footballer who had real talent. His 4 flags have been a rich and outrageous reward for another perennial head case. His glory years were on a series of one year low dollar contracts that reflected Clubs hesitancy with his off field issues. His off field problems lead him to play with 4 clubs where his time was at each was surrounded by controversy and problems despite the four flags. Despite his good fortune to play in 4 flags, he made zip from the game He could have been a personally highly decorated club champion with a peerless football record. However, he remains a talented contradiction when you look at his career. Despite the flags he could have got more out of his career.

Carey should have ended a peerless champion of the game with his head held high (like Hird). However he is despite his playing record, a person of dubious reputation and character whose career ended in high farce and ridicule. He should have finished at North and been spoken of in the same breath as Archer. For a player who is possibly their greatest player, North dont revere him and prefer not to talk about him.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Good post.

Feva, I still love him. I think at the moment he is without peer as a full forward. I think sometimes we try too hard to look at the off field stuff. Yes, your point is entirely valid, and rightly so Carey is not talked about... but when the purists get together over a beer, I like to think what these blokes did and do to get the pill and to use it takes up 95% of what we talk about... otherwise we're a bunch of old nannas aren't we? I think what makes Feva the interesting case is that he IS a TOTAL tool, and VERY often he retains that behaviour on the field, but he still gets results...

Agreed on Carey and Pike. Pike is fascinating. Like you said he seemed to rob the game BLIND by taking home four flags, considering the talented players who were not journeymen who will never play in a flag. Can you put him up there with Neitz? Surely not... and yet like you say, even with his success he could still have given so much more back to the football world. His identity in the media is almost non-existent. His work on SEN is VERY dull... If he was smart about it, he could have a golden parachute the magnitude of which mean his feet will never touch the ground... but as it is we're left with one of the games most decorated players in recent years (in terms of medallions) who we prefer not to talk about... Ditto Carey in many senses.

And in the wider sense, will this keep happening to football? Is it part and parcel with the pressure and egotistical nature that so many seem to take a wrecking ball to societies rules? Has this always been the case? Is it secretly why so many LOVE these men? Their success and pure brilliance despite their weaknesses?

This is why I love the Neitz, Harvey, Archer types. Selfless genuine grown men who even when they misbehave are GENUINELY sorry for it and work to make up for their mistakes, in the end becoming better citizens for it. And even the Schwartz types who continue to enrich the game beyond measure by remaining in the public eye and making us all proud to be associated with the game.

Good discussion.

[Little Goffy 14,582]

Political correctness is what you get when people have to deal with constant bull**** all the time on account of other people picking out something to have a go at.

Remember the Akermanis 'those monkeys upstairs' comments? He knew he was talking about executives, not aboriginals. But think about the guy who keeps having to put up with drunk idiots asking him where he keeps his banana.

Brock Mclean just got back from a trip where, apparently, he was jinxed enough to have repeat times when some idiot decided he was a free target.

If he's headed out one night and someone drunk comes up and starts just giving him a bit of a ribbing, there's a bigger chance Brock would give the guy a spray and tell him to [censored] off, even if there wasn't really a problem. That's the whole deal with political correctness right there.

So deal with it. And if you want to have a whinge about how you have to watch your mouth all the time, find some of the pricks who dish out the rubbish that starts the whole problem.

Yeah, the post is a storm in a teacup, as others have said, but I'm really sick of people whipping out 'aww, no need to be so politically correct' everytime they realise too late that they've stepped on someones toes.

Next time, try 'yeah, sorry bout that one, didn't mean anything by it' and cop it on the chin.

Anyway, I'd take a punt on Sampi, for no cash and effectively a 70+ pick, why not?

[Biffinator 2]

The ones yet to come are the interesting ones.

Old55, sadly, I suspect the only medals that Sampi will pick up are from Colonel Sanders.

Biffinator.