Not sure where to put this so started a thread. For those on here who say changing game plan takes time I just laugh. I frankly think its pathetic. 'Oh it takes years to ingrain a new game plan'. It is just excuses for poor coaching.

And to back that up Daniel Hoyne from Champion Data talked last night about the Brisbane Lions .

For the past 2 1/2 years they have been the bottom 2 for aggression at moving the ball forward. The bottom 2 slowest moving ball team in the competition. Chip Mark, Chip mark. Uncontested marks, short kicks before getting the ball 50 to score.

2023 3rd slowest , 2024 second slowest

The first 12 weeks of 2025 they were the 2nd slowest in getting the ball forward.

The last 6 weeks they are the 4th most aggressive side in the comp. A complete change of style. In season. All during this time they have been a regular finalist and won a flag.

How is it that the Lions can make a complete change to their game style in season? We have been told on here that it is impossible.

here's the link you can listen for yourselves.

We can barely recognise what our game plan is.

Apple Podcasts

Full On Footy Analysis with Champion Data's Daniel Hoyne...

Podcast Episode · Sportsday · 15/07/2025 · 43m

Edited Wednesday at 07:232 days by jnrmac

It was hard to see much different in our gameplan on the weekend.

There was lots of stagnant play coming out of defence. Lots of long kicking down the line to contests down the wings. Lots of bombing into the forward line. Not much movement with handball. Not much overlap run. No movement from our forwards and leading towards the ball carrier. Lots of hand in the air running back to goal or jogging towards the boundary side of the contest.

For years we've heard the game changes not just season to season but within seasons. Anyone who tells you it takes years to bed down a change of playing style is making excuses or has no clue.

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

It was hard to see much different in our gameplan on the weekend.

There was lots of stagnant play coming out of defence. Lots of long kicking down the line to contests down the wings. Lots of bombing into the forward line. Not much movement with handball. Not much overlap run. No movement from our forwards and leading towards the ball carrier. Lots of hand in the air running back to goal or jogging towards the boundary side of the contest.

For years we've heard the game changes not just season to season but within seasons. Anyone who tells you it takes years to bed down a change of playing style is making excuses or has no clue.

Kick it to a leading player,handball above the knees,kick the ball between the 2 big sticks and tackle the opposition.Coached in the U/10s

4 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Not sure where to put this so started a thread. For those on here who say changing game plan takes time I just laugh. I frankly think its pathetic. 'Oh it takes years to ingrain a new game plan'. It is just excuses for poor coaching.

And to back that up Daniel Hoyne from Champion Data talked last night about the Brisbane Lions .

For the past 2 1/2 years they have been the bottom 2 for aggression at moving the ball forward. The bottom 2 slowest moving ball team in the competition. Chip Mark, Chip mark. Uncontested marks, short kicks before getting the ball 50 to score.

2023 3rd slowest , 2024 second slowest

The first 12 weeks of 2025 they were the 2nd slowest in getting the ball forward.

The last 6 weeks they are the 4th most aggressive side in the comp. A complete change of style. In season. All during this time they have been a regular finalist and won a flag.

How is it that the Lions can make a complete change to their game style in season? We have been told on here that it is impossible.

here's the link you can listen for yourselves.

We can barely recognise what our game plan is.

Apple Podcasts

Full On Footy Analysis with Champion Data's Daniel Hoyne...

Podcast Episode · Sportsday · 15/07/2025 · 43m

Lions were always a kicking side, they used to spread the footy back and forth looking for an opening in the corridor and hit the kick. Then move the ball very quickly once they opened the ground up.

They did this against us a lot from 21-24, making sure they didn’t go long down the line or kick to contests.

They are now more aggressive with their ball movement, speed on the ball and more backing the run and handball from behind.Less repeated switching

It’s not a massive change in game plan it’s taking away the lateral kick and repeated lateral kick to open up the 45 or corridor kick to change lanes. But let’s also factor in they’re a very different make up of a side/list I reckon they have better foot skills overall

We’re moving from a in the contest and go long and direct, generally to the pockets, where we can create repeat stoppages or crest pressure on the opposition on their defensive exits to cause a turnover and give us repeat entries, but that creates issues entering congested F50s

Our previous game plan wasn’t built around turnovers from our defensive half and getting speed on the ball with aggressive kicking or run in waves and forward handball.

I’d argue our style is a big shift and we don’t have all the pieces for us to be able to have that plan running smoothly. That’s not to say we don’t have them on our list with some magnet moving. I’m still not convinced we can get there without significant tough decisions, but we shall see.

I’ve coached for a fair while and it’s difficult changing payers from what they know and there are some players on our list who are very good at their style of game but very average at the hitting up of 45s and/or holding to give off the handball to the runner. We’ve done it on occasion yet still when the opposition brings the heat players go back to what they know

Edited Wednesday at 12:472 days by Pennant St Dee

2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

It was hard to see much different in our gameplan on the weekend.

There was lots of stagnant play coming out of defence. Lots of long kicking down the line to contests down the wings. Lots of bombing into the forward line. Not much movement with handball. Not much overlap run. No movement from our forwards and leading towards the ball carrier. Lots of hand in the air running back to goal or jogging towards the boundary side of the contest.

For years we've heard the game changes not just season to season but within seasons. Anyone who tells you it takes years to bed down a change of playing style is making excuses or has no clue.

Absolutely disagree

It’s easier to move from A - B

Or C - D

It’s a lot more difficult to get from A - D

Just now, Pennant St Dee said:

Absolutely disagree

It’s easier to move from A - B

Or C - D

It’s a lot more difficult to get from A - D

Agree to disagree 😊

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Agree to disagree 😊

Yes that’s fine

6 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Not sure where to put this so started a thread. For those on here who say changing game plan takes time I just laugh. I frankly think its pathetic. 'Oh it takes years to ingrain a new game plan'. It is just excuses for poor coaching.

And to back that up Daniel Hoyne from Champion Data talked last night about the Brisbane Lions .

For the past 2 1/2 years they have been the bottom 2 for aggression at moving the ball forward. The bottom 2 slowest moving ball team in the competition. Chip Mark, Chip mark. Uncontested marks, short kicks before getting the ball 50 to score.

2023 3rd slowest , 2024 second slowest

The first 12 weeks of 2025 they were the 2nd slowest in getting the ball forward.

The last 6 weeks they are the 4th most aggressive side in the comp. A complete change of style. In season. All during this time they have been a regular finalist and won a flag.

How is it that the Lions can make a complete change to their game style in season? We have been told on here that it is impossible.

here's the link you can listen for yourselves.

We can barely recognise what our game plan is.

Apple Podcasts

Full On Footy Analysis with Champion Data's Daniel Hoyne...

Podcast Episode · Sportsday · 15/07/2025 · 43m

Brisbane players are alot more skillful by foot and hit consistent targets and were willing to make these changes.

The changes that have taken place in Brisbane's tweak aren't as dramatic as ours.

Our players and coaches weren't willing to change initially to our current game plan.

Our old GP was designed to kick long to the wings take territory, create a stoppage win stoppage clearance and surge forward from there.

Edited Wednesday at 14:252 days by YesitwasaWin4theAges

I call massive amounts of BS on that Lions stat.

I watched the 2023 and 2024 grand finals and the other finals along the way. There's no way Brisbane have been consistently slow moving in that time frame.

Didn't Champion Data admit that they've only started measuring speed of ball movement this year?

22 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

I call massive amounts of BS on that Lions stat.

I watched the 2023 and 2024 grand finals and the other finals along the way. There's no way Brisbane have been consistently slow moving in that time frame.

Didn't Champion Data admit that they've only started measuring speed of ball movement this year?

Yea but they have backdated the stats to 2019 or there abouts.

—

The most obvious part of our GP that is lacking is the personnel that are unable to fulfil it.

IMO We are 4-5 good players away from contending again.

It’s too much to expect our new recruits to excel yet. They’ll need at least 50 games of experience. That’s 2-3 years of development.

Then we have the retirements to our seniors to contend with which will open up more list holes.

3 minutes ago, GS_1905 said:

Yea but they have backdated the stats to 2019 or there abouts.

—

The most obvious part of our GP that is lacking is the personnel that are unable to fulfil it.

IMO We are 4-5 good players away from contending again.

It’s too much to expect our new recruits to excel yet. They’ll need at least 50 games of experience. That’s 2-3 years of development.

Then we have the retirements to our seniors to contend with which will open up more list holes.

I'm not exactly buying the accurate of a stat that's been back dated.

Aside from youth I just don't think we have the midfield make up to quickly switch from a contested game plan to a transition running one. Tracc, Viney, Oliver just isn't the right fit for it

1 hour ago, Pennant St Dee said:

Lions were always a kicking side, they used to spread the footy back and forth looking for an opening in the corridor and hit the kick. Then move the ball very quickly once they opened the ground up.

They did this against us a lot from 21-24, making sure they didn’t go long down the line or kick to contests.

They are now more aggressive with their ball movement, speed on the ball and more backing the run and handball from behind.Less repeated switching

It’s not a massive change in game plan it’s taking away the lateral kick and repeated lateral kick to open up the 45 or corridor kick to change lanes. But let’s also factor in they’re a very different make up of a side/list I reckon they have better foot skills overall

We’re moving from a in the contest and go long and direct, generally to the pockets, where we can create repeat stoppages or crest pressure on the opposition on their defensive exits to cause a turnover and give us repeat entries, but that creates issues entering congested F50s

Our previous game plan wasn’t built around turnovers from our defensive half and getting speed on the ball with aggressive kicking or run in waves and forward handball.

I’d argue our style is a big shift and we don’t have all the pieces for us to be able to have that plan running smoothly. That’s not to say we don’t have them on our list with some magnet moving. I’m still not convinced we can get there without significant tough decisions, but we shall see.

I’ve coached for a fair while and it’s difficult changing payers from what they know and there are some players on our list who are very good at their style of game but very average at the hitting up of 45s and/or holding to give off the handball to the runner. We’ve done it on occasion yet still when the opposition brings the heat players go back to what they know

Spot on.

And I'd add going from the 2nd slowest in getting the ball forward in the first 12 weeks of 2025 to 4th in the last six weeks is not indicative of a 'complete change' of style.

For one thing, a six week period is a relatively small sample size to use as evidence of a 'complete change' of game style (they may well end up near the bottom of that table this season too - and from memory they also started to get it forward quicker near the end of last home season and in the finals, so perhaps they are deliberately following a similar pattern).

Secondly that is one stat, and ball movement is just one element of a team's game plan (eg how a team defends is arguably a more significant element of a teams game plan) - in isolation a change to that stat is not evidence of a complete change in style. A tweak perhaps but certainly not a radical change.

The pies have made a similarly dramatic change in reagard to their method of transitioning the ball as also evidenced by an isolated stat (albeit one that doesn't aggregate several data points Luke speed of ball movement) one hoyne has also discussed.

The pies have gone from one of the quickest to play on from a mark or free to the slowest.

Big change, but it's just one element of their method - and no one is suggesting they have changed their game plan. Tweaked it yes, changed it no.

From memory they were also the fastest ball movement team and are now in the bottom third (I might be wrong on that). Again noone is arguing tha5 is evidence they have completelychanged their game plan.

And as you note Pennant, tweaks are way easier to implement than wholesale changes to a team's game plan and method the dees have undertaken.

In any case, it's worth noting that goody deserves kudos for the fact that the dees have in fact implemented a new game over the last two seasons, in particular this season (we started the process in the first half of last year and as goody has said, unfortunately reverted in the second half of the 2024 season to try and eke out some wins to make finals).

There are any number of metrics that evidence our radical change in game plan - eg scores from defensive half, speed of ball movement (equal first in the AFL), how quickly we are playing on after a mark or free (top 3 in the AFL) etc.

The fact that we haven't been winning this year doesn’t negate the fact we have implemented a new method.

I would argue the key reason we have not won more games is not that we have failed to implement the new method but that we don't have enough players with the requisite skill set to implement it optimally. The most obvious indicator of that is our crazy scores from turnovers numbers (I'm guessing bottom three).

But our high turnover numbers can also be seen as evidence of working to implement a new transition based game plan - ie we are trying to take the game on just turning it over too often (ie we could reduce turnovers by reverting to our old, down the line, forward half game plan and/or playing g slow and/or not taking on the sort of high risk kicks the transition method demands).

A lot is made of mcrae being able to implement a similarly radical change in game plan in terms of movimg away from Buckley's defence first method but he had a major advantage over Goody.

Mcrae's game plan requires players suited to that style, namely a solid core of players who can consistently hit high risk kicks and not too many turnover merchants.

In terms of the former, unlike goody, he had a lot of senior players with above average to elite foot skills (eg Pendulbury, Sidebottom, Mcreee, Quaynor, Josh Daicos, Elliot, Hoskin Elliot) and had the good fortune of his tenure coinciding with the debut of the most consistently damaging kick in the AFL in Nick Daicos.

Edited Wednesday at 16:021 day by binman

Our gameplan is a mess. We clearly do not have the cattle to implement a risk/reward system. We do not have good users and we are not smart enough to create space.

I remember the Dean Bailey era going to games and thinking, gee when this all clicks we look amazing. Have only seen it live in patches at the swans game. We are a complete borefest and have been for 2 years.

I know it’s been done to death, but we need changes, major changes across the board. Culture is [censored], gameplan is [censored], no one wants to come to our club and members are not turning up.

A new start and an exciting new gameplan can change everything

We've made massive changes.

Now instead of kicking out long to Gawn we do a short kick to the pocket and then kick long to Gawn on the boundary.

Seriously the only difference I've noticed is that we are trying to kick lower into the forward line.

Cannot remember us being in the corridor once

25 minutes ago, SPC said:

Our gameplan is a mess. We clearly do not have the cattle to implement a risk/reward system. We do not have good users and we are not smart enough to create space.

This is a major hurdle and contributory factor, IMO. For whatever reason, we haven't drafted elite users and seemingly haven't placed a significant emphasis on this at the draft table (although Laurie was billed as one of the best kicks in his draft year, from memory - but he seemingly hasn't developed and his future likely isn't with us). Arguably, it's because as a football club we've built a game around contested possession, stoppage power and territory but the contemporary game has seemingly moved on from this being the primary focus of the current game.

I can see XL being the most likely of the current crop to develop into this category, and potentially Langford, but we need to address because it is becoming a huge issue for us.

As I've ranted about for years, having too many one-dimensional players or a high number of players who possess poor kicking across your list greatly restricts any meaningful change at a game-plan level.

And whilst we're still in a 'transition phase' I'm hopeful that Goody puts the long-term success of the club first and his relationship hat to the side come end of year. Some hard calls need to be made and Goody simply has to drive those decisions.

Edited Wednesday at 22:041 day by Howard_Grimes

50 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

We've made massive changes.

Now instead of kicking out long to Gawn we do a short kick to the pocket and then kick long to Gawn on the boundary.

Seriously the only difference I've noticed is that we are trying to kick lower into the forward line.

Cannot remember us being in the corridor once

None if the top teans use the corridor much anymore- nor even Collingwood who used it often in 2022 and 2023. It's too easily defenfended and the risk reward ratio is out of wack in terms of the impact of turning it over in the middle of the ground.

8 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

I call massive amounts of BS on that Lions stat.

I watched the 2023 and 2024 grand finals and the other finals along the way. There's no way Brisbane have been consistently slow moving in that time frame.

Didn't Champion Data admit that they've only started measuring speed of ball movement this year?

According to this SEN article, the Brisbane Lions were the fastest Ball movement side last year. I've no idea what Jnrmac is on about.

Champion Data analyst exclusivel...

Champion Data analyst exclusively reveals new measurement...

Daniel Hoyne reveals the newest revolution in Champion Data tracking

Brisbane are also noted as being a fast ball movement team this yeae, and in the top 6 to only a few weeks ago in this article. They don't go long, they go short, but very quickly.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-2025-speed-of-ball-statistic-explained-every-team-ranked-from-fastest-to-slowest-afl-ball-movement-stats-champion-data-numbers-latest-news/news-story/8e4894d20931117b3a3311bf98ba3a51

I love how we cant do a basic level of research before creating a thread.

Edited Wednesday at 23:141 day by Adam The God

11 hours ago, doomsday dee said:

Kick it to a leading player,handball above the knees,kick the ball between the 2 big sticks and tackle the opposition.Coached in the U/10s

Busy next year ?

Asking for a friend

23 minutes ago, Adam The God said:

I've no idea what Jnrmac is on about.

Goody bashing...

1 hour ago, Adam The God said:

According to this SEN article, the Brisbane Lions were the fastest Ball movement side last year. I've no idea what Jnrmac is on about.

Champion Data analyst exclusivel...

Champion Data analyst exclusively reveals new measurement...

Daniel Hoyne reveals the newest revolution in Champion Data tracking

Brisbane are also noted as being a fast ball movement team this yeae, and in the top 6 to only a few weeks ago in this article. They don't go long, they go short, but very quickly.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-2025-speed-of-ball-statistic-explained-every-team-ranked-from-fastest-to-slowest-afl-ball-movement-stats-champion-data-numbers-latest-news/news-story/8e4894d20931117b3a3311bf98ba3a51

I love how we cant do a basic level of research before creating a thread.

58 minutes ago, rjay said:

Goody bashing...

In Jnr Mac’s defence I did hear the segment and Hoyney was very massive in the in season change up . From the start of this year to the last 6 weeks.

They are far more aggressive in moving the ball with that 45 or corridor kick and also pressing up on defences from what I can see

2 hours ago, Adam The God said:

According to this SEN article, the Brisbane Lions were the fastest Ball movement side last year. I've no idea what Jnrmac is on about.

Champion Data analyst exclusivel...

Champion Data analyst exclusively reveals new measurement...

Daniel Hoyne reveals the newest revolution in Champion Data tracking

Brisbane are also noted as being a fast ball movement team this yeae, and in the top 6 to only a few weeks ago in this article. They don't go long, they go short, but very quickly.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-2025-speed-of-ball-statistic-explained-every-team-ranked-from-fastest-to-slowest-afl-ball-movement-stats-champion-data-numbers-latest-news/news-story/8e4894d20931117b3a3311bf98ba3a51

I love how we cant do a basic level of research before creating a thread.

If you did the basic level of research you would listen to the audio of Daniel Hoyne saying exactly what I talked about.

If you want to rely on third party articles go for you life.

3 hours ago, Howard_Grimes said:

And whilst we're still in a 'transition phase' I'm hopeful that Goody puts the long-term success of the club first and his relationship hat to the side come end of year. Some hard calls need to be made and Goody simply has to drive those decisions.

Such as dropping Tmac? This was a decision based on our future and was met with howls of protest.

Damned if he does, etc.

2 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Busy next year ?

Asking for a friend

Funny how everyone can see but players that get paid a [censored] tonne of money can't change a skill set.tell your friend

Champion Data were saying earlier in the year that our ball movement was one of the fastest in the comp. The problem is we didn't do anything to fix our forward entries or structure so it was a bit of a hiding to nothing.