How Chris Scott differs from other AFL coaches

[DeeSpencer 25,472]

2 minutes ago, KozzyCan said:

What exactly are you basing the Goodwin coached all of 2016? That seems like a bit of a myth. He was still an apprentice at that stage.

I stand by my point that every year of Goodwin's tenure we had a list capable of making finals. By that metric half his seasons were failures.

People use injuries as a massive cop out. Like we're the only club to ever deal with injuries. We went from a prelim final to second last. That's a terrible result no matter how you look at it.

There's simply no metric where Goodwin is as good of a coach than Scott. It's not even a contest.

Watching the games - the way Goody interacted with players and Roos would only step in when needed and watching the trainings - of which Goodwin took all of them. Watching the game plan change massively - in fact, the final round of 2015 was Goody’s first game in charge. 8000 of us at Docklands vs GWS and the magnets completely changed. A zone defence. Up tempo ball movement. Forward pressure. None of that happened in 2015 until the very final round and then got going in 16.

May and Lever weren’t just regular injuries. Almost the entire midfield having surgeries isn’t just injuries. Read this and see Misson was warning everyone before the season even started and then it only got worse as the year went on.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-2019-melbourne-board-preseason-reportedly-warned-about-injury-toll-and-possible-sluggish-start/news-story/ac5c04b3f5fc1f0bbab2e3fd40b471bf
 

I’d have Scott over Goodwin too but Scott won his first flag with his own players after a decade in charge and they immediately missed finals.
 

But what did they do in the mean time? Add Olli Henry and Tanner Bruhn with meh picks, that makes life easier than trying to draft and develop the likes of JVR and Jefferson. Add guys like Dempsey, Humphries and Mannagh.

The difference between the Cats list management and ours is way more than the difference in coaching.

[DeeSpencer 25,472]

10 minutes ago, KozzyCan said:

I've heard people say this but not seen any actual evidence of it. I find the notion a bit absurd. Was Roos just sitting back drinking martinis on a $1.5m salary while Goodwin did all the work? I doubt it.

Have you met Paul Roos?

He was working for North from Hawaii.

[deanox 9,898]

25 minutes ago, seventyfour said:

He never actually said this. The journo is writing it but it's not what Scott said at his press conference.

I hate Scott and his excuses as much as anyone but in this case he didn't use it as an excuse.

Do you think that maybe the journo has a source who has leaked these comments? 

And have you noticed that other clubs don't leak these comments often?

[KozzyCan 764]

18 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Watching the games - the way Goody interacted with players and Roos would only step in when needed and watching the trainings - of which Goodwin took all of them. Watching the game plan change massively - in fact, the final round of 2015 was Goody’s first game in charge. 8000 of us at Docklands vs GWS and the magnets completely changed. A zone defence. Up tempo ball movement. Forward pressure. None of that happened in 2015 until the very final round and then got going in 16.

May and Lever weren’t just regular injuries. Almost the entire midfield having surgeries isn’t just injuries. Read this and see Misson was warning everyone before the season even started and then it only got worse as the year went on.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-2019-melbourne-board-preseason-reportedly-warned-about-injury-toll-and-possible-sluggish-start/news-story/ac5c04b3f5fc1f0bbab2e3fd40b471bf
 

I’d have Scott over Goodwin too but Scott won his first flag with his own players after a decade in charge and they immediately missed finals.
 

But what did they do in the mean time? Add Olli Henry and Tanner Bruhn with meh picks, that makes life easier than trying to draft and develop the likes of JVR and Jefferson. Add guys like Dempsey, Humphries and Mannagh.

The difference between the Cats list management and ours is way more than the difference in coaching.

I agree with the last bit, that's why I find the argument that Scott benefits from amazing list management and inheriting a great side a little unfair when people are claiming Goodwin built this team himself at the same time. Feels like trying to have it both ways.

Both Goodwin and Scott would have a big influence in recruitment and even more in development. Geelong recruited extremely well over the 22 and 23 off-seasons but Scott has harnessed that talent and turned a bunch of nobodies into important cogs in a well oiled machine.

On injuries I'll just say that we seem to hit a tipping point very quickly when our players start getting injured, quicker than other teams tbh. For example last year Collingwood had a lot of injuries in the middle of the year but managed to keep things steady and win the flag. Goodwin really needs everything going right for us to be a chance. I think this also has a lot to do with how we've managed injuries under Goodwin, pushing players to play through injuries rather than relying on depth which has hurt us as well.

Edited September 22 by KozzyCan

[Moonshadow 17,675]

2 hours ago, KozzyCan said:

The bulk of the work was done before Goodwin took the reigns. The core of the team was built and he's always had a list capable of making finals.

Don't understand the reference to trading Watts and Hogan, both decisions that made our team better not worse.

If we're giving Goodwin credit for all the list management decisions post Roos then we must do the same for Scott. Rebuilt Geelong twice over only dropping out of finals for single years each time.

You said Goodwin was handed a young, talented list primed to take the next step.

Of those 45 on our list when Roos finished, 9 played in our flag.

With all due respect to the great man Paul Roos, I'd say there were some players ready to go to the next level, the majority were not. In fact I'd say Goodwin did the 'priming' to get the boys to the next step. 

We beg to differ, that's all

[Little Goffy 14,455]

All this talk of how easy it was for Goodwin to take the dozen good players he inherited from Roos to a premiership just goes to show how hard it must have been for Scott in 2011, who had to overcome the deficiencies of both Allen Christensen AND Trent West not already being premiership players.

After the inherited premiership, Chris Scott from 2012-2019 managed 4 wins from 15 finals.

I can only assume everyone vigorously pleasuring themselves about Scott's greatness is ready to give Goodwin the same run on the understanding that he'll snag us another flag in 2032?

[KozzyCan 764]

Just now, Moonshadow said:

You said Goodwin was handed a young, talented list primed to take the next step.

Of those 45 on our list when Roos finished, 9 played in our flag.

With all due respect to the great man Paul Roos, I'd say there were some players ready to go to the next level, the majority were not. In fact I'd say Goodwin did the 'priming' to get the boys to the next step. 

We beg to differ, that's all

Yes he absolutely inherited a good young side. We just missed finals in 2017 and were playing off for a Grand Final spot in 2018. There was a capable team there already. Focusing on the flag side is too narrow a view.

[KozzyCan 764]

6 minutes ago, Little Goffy said:

All this talk of how easy it was for Goodwin to take the dozen good players he inherited from Roos to a premiership just goes to show how hard it must have been for Scott in 2011, who had to overcome the deficiencies of both Allen Christensen AND Trent West not already being premiership players.

After the inherited premiership, Chris Scott from 2012-2019 managed 4 wins from 15 finals.

I can only assume everyone vigorously pleasuring themselves about Scott's greatness is ready to give Goodwin the same run on the understanding that he'll snag us another flag in 2032?

If Goodwin makes finals every year for the next 8 years he will absolutely have my support. That's the record he would need to match in your example.

[titan_uranus 24,974]

2 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Big O is a big out, but I wonder if the Lions other outs have almost helped them.

Lester is always the back up but seems to get the job done. He might be better than Doedee and Gardiner.

Coleman is an incredible footballer but his absence has forced Zorko to go back, where he is brilliant but also seems to concentrate on the game more. When he was mid/forward he’d spend the down time at stoppages giving away free kicks with poor discipline.

Linc is one of my favourite opposition players but Ah Chee and Lohmann have thrived in his absence and they have fresher younger legs than he does.

The crucial thing with the Lions injuries aside from Oscar is they happened with enough time to regroup and get a consistent team together. Plus they clearly have a fantastic list.

They’ve done very well to cover their three best 23 injuries (Coleman, Doedee, McCarthy - I’m not sure Gardiner is best 23).

But whilst they’ve had those injuries, they’ve also had a great run with the rest of the list. They have 11 players who have played every game this year, and I think a few others have only missed 1-2 games. 

[titan_uranus 24,974]

2 hours ago, KozzyCan said:

There's simply no metric where Goodwin is as good of a coach than Scott. It's not even a contest.

Well, there is at least one. 

Finals W/L - Goodwin is 50%, Scott’s 46.67%.

[Salems Lot 2,493]

Not sure if this has been said but by joingoes the guy is good at selecting blame after a loss. He did it against us in 21 and has blamed Covid again last night.  You lost mate,  suck it up

[Wrecker46 2,963]

On 21/09/2024 at 08:21, Ted Lasso said:

Most coaches are either unbelievable people managers ala "Ted Lasso" or they have incredible tactical nous and game sense and see trends ahead of time ala "Nathan Shelly" but rarely both. 

The best coaches that go down as all time greats like Clarko, Dimma, Scott, Sheedy, Malthouse, Matthews and the list goes on, are a combination of the two. 

 

Which was Malthouse? Tactical nous or player manager?

Underacheived at the 2 most powerful clubs in the land. Won two premiership at West Coast when they were double the size of everyone else and fluked one at Collinwood because the ball didn't sit for Milne in the drawn GF and Collingwood were better resourced to deal with the draw than St Kilda.

Give me Goodwin anyday.

 

[Ted Lasso 19,299]

1 minute ago, Wrecker46 said:

Which was Malthouse? Tactical nous or player manager?

Underacheived at the 2 most powerful clubs in the land. Won two premiership at West Coast when they were double the size of everyone else and fluked one at Collinwood because the ball didn't sit for Milne in the drawn GF and Collingwood were better resourced to deal with the draw than St Kilda.

Give me Goodwin anyday.

 

So he won 3 premierships, coached a number of grand finals and deep finals runs at multiple clubs and is generally accepted to be one of the better coaches the game has ever seen?

Goody is a very good coach, perhaps in time he will reach the level of Malthouse, but he's a long way off as it stands.

[KozzyCan 764]

1 hour ago, titan_uranus said:

Well, there is at least one. 

Finals W/L - Goodwin is 50%, Scott’s 46.67%.

Maybe Goodwin should have hung it up after the flag, then his finals win rate would be untouchable!

[DeeSpencer 25,472]

2 hours ago, KozzyCan said:

I agree with the last bit, that's why I find the argument that Scott benefits from amazing list management and inheriting a great side a little unfair when people are claiming Goodwin built this team himself at the same time. Feels like trying to have it both ways.

Scott took over a literal dynasty tho and all he did was stop them over handballing and coach better than Bomber who had significant issues by that stage. Enough issues to sack a guy who had won 2 of the last 4 flags! That’s very different than Goodwin taking over a list with Gawn, Viney and draft picks.

2 hours ago, KozzyCan said:

Both Goodwin and Scott would have a big influence in recruitment and even more in development. Geelong recruited extremely well over the 22 and 23 off-seasons but Scott has harnessed that talent and turned a bunch of nobodies into important cogs in a well oiled machine.

I blame Goodwin for not being more proactive with the list the last few years but I don’t blame him not getting more out of most of the players. We had a look at a lot of the list this year and they just aren’t very good. We just don’t turn the list over or take enough mature agers or alternative talent kind of picks.

2 hours ago, KozzyCan said:

On injuries I'll just say that we seem to hit a tipping point very quickly when our players start getting injured, quicker than other teams tbh. For example last year Collingwood had a lot of injuries in the middle of the year but managed to keep things steady and win the flag. Goodwin really needs everything going right for us to be a chance. I think this also has a lot to do with how we've managed injuries under Goodwin, pushing players to play through injuries rather than relying on depth which has hurt us as well.

I agree with this. And trying to recreate 2021 when we played the same team all year in 2022 was a major mistake.

2023 I think we managed some decent injuries, still finished top 4 and actually had everything tracking well for finals until Petty and especially Melksham went down on the eve of finals. Suddenly the forward line was cactus. Throw in the Gus injury early in a game and what could’ve been a big time finals win goes down the drain. 

We shouldn’t have seasons that go down the drain like this year did but it’s list related not coaching. You can’t win with no midfield.

[Wrecker46 2,963]

41 minutes ago, Ted Lasso said:

So he won 3 premierships, coached a number of grand finals and deep finals runs at multiple clubs and is generally accepted to be one of the better coaches the game has ever seen?

Goody is a very good coach, perhaps in time he will reach the level of Malthouse, but he's a long way off as it stands.

Question still remains is he a tactical nous or brilliant player manager? I'd say neither.

[Ted Lasso 19,299]

1 minute ago, Wrecker46 said:

Question still remains is he a tactical nous or brilliant player manager? I'd say neither.

The Pies 2010/2011 game plan really paved the way for the Hawks defensive structure so i would say that he was very good in that space, and man managers, Dale Thomas left Collingwood to go and play under him so he at least clearly liked him a lot. 

[Watson11 2,240]

9 minutes ago, Ted Lasso said:

The Pies 2010/2011 game plan really paved the way for the Hawks defensive structure so i would say that he was very good in that space, and man managers, Dale Thomas left Collingwood to go and play under him so he at least clearly liked him a lot. 

The 2010 coaching against Geelong was pretty revolutionary at the time.  They destroyed Geelong in the prelim with a forward 50 press.  I don’t recall seeing it before then.  Became quite common after. 

[titan_uranus 24,974]

1 hour ago, KozzyCan said:

Maybe Goodwin should have hung it up after the flag, then his finals win rate would be untouchable!

He’s worn four straight finals losses and still has a better finals record than Scott. 

For the record, of current coaches with at least 10 finals, he also has a better finals record than Hinkley and Lyon, and after next week will be equal with the loser of Fagan and Longmire. But he will trail the winner of Fagan/Longmire (who will have only passed him this year), as well as Hardwick and Clarkson (both over 60%) and Beveridge (53%).

[YesitwasaWin4theAges 6,685]

3 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

They’ve done very well to cover their three best 23 injuries (Coleman, Doedee, McCarthy - I’m not sure Gardiner is best 23).

But whilst they’ve had those injuries, they’ve also had a great run with the rest of the list. They have 11 players who have played every game this year, and I think a few others have only missed 1-2 games. 

Non of those players mentioned are structural players all are replaced without much fuss.

I'd like to see them go 2 years without access to their best tall forward Joe Daniher periods of a season without Harris Andrews, Jackson Payne, The big O or maybe Lachie Neale and a couple other midfielders.

They've had a good run with injuries and it helps having all the help with the NGA selections gifted packed from the AFL.

[KozzyCan 764]

37 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

He’s worn four straight finals losses and still has a better finals record than Scott. 

For the record, of current coaches with at least 10 finals, he also has a better finals record than Hinkley and Lyon, and after next week will be equal with the loser of Fagan and Longmire. But he will trail the winner of Fagan/Longmire (who will have only passed him this year), as well as Hardwick and Clarkson (both over 60%) and Beveridge (53%).

I'm sorry but this is just a terrible way to assess coaches for a number of reasons and I'll tell you why.

1. Your finals winrate isn't affected by missing finals completely so coaches who have fewer finals appearances are more likely to have a better winrate.

2. Losing a QF and winning a Semi then losing a PF gives you a [censored] winrate worse than a coach who wins an EF but loses the Semi, despite the PF being a greater achievement.

3. Unless you win the flag you are guaranteed to lose at least one final so the winrates are very difficult to raise, especially if you're making top 4 where you could lose two finals but still make a prelim as I already mentioned.

Since Goodwin has been coach Scott has coached in 7 finals series including 6 prelims, 2 Grand finals and 1 flag.

Goodwin has had 4 finals series, 2 prelims, 1 GF, 1 Flag and 2 straight sets.

Finals winrate means nothing compared to actual results.

 

[John Crow Batty 8,861]

4 hours ago, Ted Lasso said:

So he won 3 premierships, coached a number of grand finals and deep finals runs at multiple clubs and is generally accepted to be one of the better coaches the game has ever seen?

Goody is a very good coach, perhaps in time he will reach the level of Malthouse, but he's a long way off as it stands.

Took Malthouse 9 seasons to win a flag and only made finals twice in his previous 8 seasons as coach. Took him a long time to get going. Goodwin has coached 8 seasons for 4 finals and a premiership in his 5th season. I would say Goodwin is way ahead at comparative chronological stages of their careers. 

Edited September 22 by John Crow Batty

[58er 6,391]

On 21/09/2024 at 12:53, Biffen said:

Greater Geelong area is now estimated at around 450k.

Makes it the largest  'regional" city in Australia.

Larger than Newcastle or Gold Coast?

Very interesting views from all on this topic.!

in any comparison Goody is not in the same class as Chris Scott.  
Scott has the AFL winning % over all Clubs 2011 to 2024 at the high 60’s. Finals are a different judgement and 50% plus is a great achievement.

One of the similarities of both coaches is they have a very stubborn streak. Geelong’s game plan while successful home and away stalled over finals for a decade as they played a stop start defensive style.
Amazingly Scott changed style in early 20’s and younger tyros replaced 30plus recruits and the need for speed was the mantra. Bingo all systems go and a flag after a decade of disappointment. 

Goody on the other hand was given a soft start under Paul Roos in 2016 as an assistant operating on match day. Improvement continued based on Roos defensive mantra. But he started to develop other strings to our now and importantly Clarry joined Trac and Maxy was recognised as one of the leading ruckman in the business. A pivotal win over Hawthorn near the end of 2016 prompted Brisbane champ Jonathon Brown to predict that we had a potential premiership midfield. Five seasons later in 2021  his remarks proved prophetic and under Goody we saluted after 57 years. We handled the Covid epidemic best of all and the group and hub conditions were positively embraced and it was harder to win this flag due to the pandemic and unpredictability of the draw transport and all the other conditions that prevailed. 

Interestingly the powerful but declining force in the WC Eagles failed to adjust and have had four years of a remarkable bottom ladder positions and a culture of losing injuries and seemingly no haste in trading or drafting out of its demise. Coach Adam Simpson was incredibly afforded No limit on the time for a serious reload. 

He fell  on his own sword after the Dees thrashed the Eagles by 55 points after a listless display mid season. 

No coach replacement has been appointed to date with about two thirds of original applicants declaring their lack of intent for the job, which now has only 3 genuine contenders apparently.

Back to Goody and an unlucky 9th in 2017, exciting return to Finals in 2018 with a very aggressive running plan, perishing in Perth by West   Coast at prelim stage, 

Onto 2019 with an astounding run of surgeries pre season and injuries saw us slip to 17th with only 5 wins followed by a Covid affected shortened 2020 with hubs in Qld coinciding with our 9-8 win formula. Our defence showed great promise near the end if the season after elite recruiting of Lever and May along with previously the winger from the west Ed Langdon and recycled tall forward BBB from the Kangas.  

We all know 2021 to 2024.

Goody has downbedded our style  to contest and defence which served well in the earlier times but the clock of forwards and a reliable system has harmed our chances of further success in the past 3 seasons. Injuries have not helped either. 

2025 is a crucial season for our Club to regain our football excitement and our enjoyment for the contest. It will determine Goody’s future as our Coach. The recent Club matters of culture and Board instability are not assisting our infield chances of success however our integrated training  and administration base may well be finally nearer to happening by this decade or a couple of years earlier is the biggest event this decade that will boost our Club to a united and strong Club standing with all other Clibs who have enjoyed their bases in the modern era this century. 

 

 

 

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

If you agree that Geelong as a club has advantages due to Geelong the city being regional and thus can attract athletes that want the geographical advantages that come with living there, then you can’t unthether that from any coaching record for whomever is coaching Geelong.

its been 20 years since it was called ‘sleepy hollow’ pervasively in the media.

Athletes want to live there and on the Bellarine and Surf Coasts

I lived there then and now live on the Bellarine - generationally (compared to 1,2 and 3 decades ago) athletes want different things and live in quieter places  due to the scrutiny placed in them daily/weekly.

All in all, GFC has significant advantages compared to Melbourne based clubs when  players start having families and want a different lifestyle that Melbourne clubs can’t offer.

its their unique selling point and there is no coincidence that that is why the list profile of Geelong ("too old, too slow") is the way it is. 

*This does not at all take away from Chris and his coaching ability.

What factor of advantage, the ability to attract and recruit a particular demographic,  is worth considering and mulling over.

Edited September 22 by Engorged Onion

[Little Goffy 14,455]

1 minute ago, Engorged Onion said:

If you agree that Geelong as a club has advantages due to Geelong the city being regional and thus can attract athletes that want the geographical advantages that come with living there, then you can’t unthether that from any coaching record for whomever is coaching Geelong.

its been 20 years since it was called ‘sleepy hollow’ pervasively in the media.

Athletes want to live there and on the Bellarine and Surf Coasts

I lived there then and now live on the Bellarine - generationally (compared to 1,2 and 3 decades ago) people want different things and live in quieter places  due to the scrutiny placed in them daily/weekly.

All in all, GFC has significant advantages compared to Melbourne based clubs when  players start having families and want a different lifestyle that Melbourne clubs can’t offer.

its their unique selling point and its why the list profile is the way it is. 

Yep, if you can earn 300k+ and live in some of Australia's lushest countryside near beaches and superb national parks while also still being conveniently close to both a local good-sized city, numerous picturesque towns, and to Melbourne, you'll take it.