Max is highly intelligent, rare for footy players. He also has really high emotional intelligence. 

He'll know when it's time for a change and he won't be just thinking about what's best for him. It will be what's best for the club. 

And when the change does come, he'll be able to articulate very clearly the reasons for it. 

I expected the response, and I don’t think it is wrong.

Where I am coming from is that we (the royal ‘we’ - not each individual) are questioning Pert, Roffey, Richardson, Lamb, and Goodwin for various aspects of the predicament we are in.

Max can’t be questioned as the leader of the group having such problems?

Of course he can be, and any Coach or Footy Head or Director worth their salt should be asking strong, possibly disrespectful, questions of the democratic leader of the playing group.

And I am not taking about performance, I am talking about standards, behaviour, and the seeming schism in the leadership of that playing group.

Maybe its Lever now, maybe its a redeemed CP5 in 2026, but I just haven’t been impressed and it’s worth a discussion.

  On 31/08/2024 at 23:18, rpfc said:

I expected the response, and I don’t think it is wrong.

Where I am coming from is that we (the royal ‘we’ - not each individual) are questioning Pert, Roffey, Richardson, Lamb, and Goodwin for various aspects of the predicament we are in.

Max can’t be questioned as the leader of the group having such problems?

Of course he can be, and any Coach or Footy Head or Director worth their salt should be asking strong, possibly disrespectful, questions of the democratic leader of the playing group.

And I am not taking about performance, I am talking about standards, behaviour, and the seeming schism in the leadership of that playing group.

Maybe its Lever now, maybe its a redeemed CP5 in 2026, but I just haven’t been impressed and it’s worth a discussion.

No I'm with you on this.

From a cultural and on field perspective the club has been poor under Max's guidance. Off field wise under his watch we've had the ongoing Joel Smith saga, Clayton Oliver issues, Steven May fight, Christian Petracca issues with off field standards and so on. Clearly some of these issues are still lingering as we speak.

On field I'll always be grateful for 2021 and I think as a whole we had a good system in place in terms of everyone being on the same page, but we've been complacent since and Max needs to take some responsibility for that. That's one year out of five under his guidance.

I have always had the thought that Gawn is a good captain, not great, but good. He is a people pleaser and someone that wants to make sure everyone is pleased and happy. I don't want that in a captain. You're there to drive elite standards on and off field and make your teammates accountable for their actions and behaviours. Based on face value this clearly hadn't happened. 

Two of the best leaders I've seen in this decade are Joel Selwood and Luke Hodge. Two men who typified what leadership is all about. Both drive incredibly high standards on and off field and not afraid to make their teammates accountable when needed.

There is the famous Luke Hodge video of him mic'd up during the game and watching him go about it is absolutely first class.

I think Jake Lever has this in spades but I worry with his on field form as well. There are critical moments in games where he just coughs up the footy and its cost us at those crucial moments.

Viney is similar as well but again, his form this year hasn't been great and I feel he's on the decline.

Max stays captain for now until there is a suitable applicant ready to take thr mantle. 

  On 31/08/2024 at 23:18, rpfc said:

Max can’t be questioned as the leader of the group having such problems?

He definitely can. And as a leader of the club, you can't just shrug away his responsibility (I did with my comment earlier, so sorry about that). If the rumours of a "suck it up" approach to Petracca's injury are true, that concerns me. 

But all a lot of supporters have to go on when judging people at the club is public statements. At a time when a lot of what we heard was incoherent, insincere and corporate waffle, Gawn came across as honest, reassuring and realistic. 

He strikes me as a good person with a deep love of the club. If that's all a facade, he is a brilliant actor. I'm not convinced that if another person had been captain during this time, things would be significantly different. He also remains the most reliable player at the club, which is vital for a captain. 

  On 31/08/2024 at 23:48, dazzledavey36 said:

No I'm with you on this.

From a cultural and on field perspective the club has been poor under Max's guidance. Off field wise under his watch we've had the ongoing Joel Smith saga, Clayton Oliver issues, Steven May fight, Christian Petracca issues with off field standards and so on. Clearly some of these issues are still lingering as we speak.

On field I'll always be grateful for 2021 and I think as a whole we had a good system in place in terms of everyone being on the same page, but we've been complacent since and Max needs to take some responsibility for that. That's one year out of five under his guidance.

I have always had the thought that Gawn is a good captain, not great, but good. He is a people pleaser and someone that wants to make sure everyone is pleased and happy. I don't want that in a captain. You're there to drive elite standards on and off field and make your teammates accountable for their actions and behaviours. Based on face value this clearly hadn't happened. 

Two of the best leaders I've seen in this decade are Joel Selwood and Luke Hodge. Two men who typified what leadership is all about. Both drive incredibly high standards on and off field and not afraid to make their teammates accountable when needed.

There is the famous Luke Hodge video of him mic'd up during the game and watching him go about it is absolutely first class.

I think Jake Lever has this in spades but I worry with his on field form as well. There are critical moments in games where he just coughs up the footy and its cost us at those crucial moments.

Viney is similar as well but again, his form this year hasn't been great and I feel he's on the decline.

Max stays captain for now until there is a suitable applicant ready to take thr mantle. 

Can I also say that from a playing perspective I have the absolute utmost respect and love for Gawn as a player and for what he's achieved for this footy club.

He is a Melbourne great and a future hall of fame for the AFL. We talk about the deep heritage and history around the famous #2 after Robbie Flower and #31 after Barassi, bur Gawns famous #11 is just as significant as those two imo. 

I think we all forget that at 25 years of age he was on the scrap heap until that famous Geelong game. I don't think Paul Roos gets enough credit for this. Made him earn it the hard way through the VFL and I think that build a lot of resilience within Gawn.

  On 31/08/2024 at 23:18, rpfc said:

I expected the response, and I don’t think it is wrong.

Where I am coming from is that we (the royal ‘we’ - not each individual) are questioning Pert, Roffey, Richardson, Lamb, and Goodwin for various aspects of the predicament we are in.

Max can’t be questioned as the leader of the group having such problems?

Of course he can be, and any Coach or Footy Head or Director worth their salt should be asking strong, possibly disrespectful, questions of the democratic leader of the playing group.

And I am not taking about performance, I am talking about standards, behaviour, and the seeming schism in the leadership of that playing group.

Maybe its Lever now, maybe its a redeemed CP5 in 2026, but I just haven’t been impressed and it’s worth a discussion.

I'm with keeping Max as captain, for now.   But you raise some really good points.

I hope the club has a succession plan to 1) identify the candidate(s).  2) a hand over that Max buys into.  The more the club does to prepare someone the better the transition.  Sparrow and Rivers may well be in the leadership group next year.

Regarding standards.  Based on 6 losses (5 from rnd 12) by 6+ goals, suggests a lack of fitness and or a commitment to win.  Players are responsible for adhering to club standards in their own fitness/committment in how they rehab if injured, match recovery, manage diet, effort, prepare for games etc etc.  The leaders are responsible to enforce the standards and 'discipline' players who fall short.  

Max is our best media manager and club rep but I wonder if he is too much of a 'mate' (as is Goodwin) with, players to enforce standards.  They are rightly lovable and loved but that isn't necessarily good leadership.   And I haven't seen traits in Richardson to be the 'bad cop' to Max and Goodwin's 'good cop'.  If Max is the 'bad cop' at times how much support does he get from Goodwin and Richardson? 

So yes, who is enforcing standards? 

Edited September 1, 2024Sep 1 by Lucifers Hero

  On 31/08/2024 at 23:18, rpfc said:

I expected the response, and I don’t think it is wrong.

Where I am coming from is that we (the royal ‘we’ - not each individual) are questioning Pert, Roffey, Richardson, Lamb, and Goodwin for various aspects of the predicament we are in.

Max can’t be questioned as the leader of the group having such problems?

Of course he can be, and any Coach or Footy Head or Director worth their salt should be asking strong, possibly disrespectful, questions of the democratic leader of the playing group.

And I am not taking about performance, I am talking about standards, behaviour, and the seeming schism in the leadership of that playing group.

Maybe its Lever now, maybe its a redeemed CP5 in 2026, but I just haven’t been impressed and it’s worth a discussion.

Agree worth discussion RP. Your theory could hold water. 

It could also be that Max is the main reason things aren't/haven't been worse 

  On 31/08/2024 at 23:48, dazzledavey36 said:

No I'm with you on this.

From a cultural and on field perspective the club has been poor under Max's guidance. Off field wise under his watch we've had the ongoing Joel Smith saga, Clayton Oliver issues, Steven May fight, Christian Petracca issues with off field standards and so on. Clearly some of these issues are still lingering as we speak.

On field I'll always be grateful for 2021 and I think as a whole we had a good system in place in terms of everyone being on the same page, but we've been complacent since and Max needs to take some responsibility for that. That's one year out of five under his guidance.

I have always had the thought that Gawn is a good captain, not great, but good. He is a people pleaser and someone that wants to make sure everyone is pleased and happy. I don't want that in a captain. You're there to drive elite standards on and off field and make your teammates accountable for their actions and behaviours. Based on face value this clearly hadn't happened. 

Two of the best leaders I've seen in this decade are Joel Selwood and Luke Hodge. Two men who typified what leadership is all about. Both drive incredibly high standards on and off field and not afraid to make their teammates accountable when needed.

There is the famous Luke Hodge video of him mic'd up during the game and watching him go about it is absolutely first class.

I think Jake Lever has this in spades but I worry with his on field form as well. There are critical moments in games where he just coughs up the footy and its cost us at those crucial moments.

Viney is similar as well but again, his form this year hasn't been great and I feel he's on the decline.

Max stays captain for now until there is a suitable applicant ready to take thr mantle. 

Haven’t got time & can’t be bothered (need to close this thread) but would you like to list all the issues that occurred at Collingwood whilst Pendles was Captain…no..wouldn’t think so 

Let me see... Max is widely regarded as one of the best Captains we have had, one of the best in the comp. He has just come off his 7th AA and has been the public face of the efforts to retain Tracc. He is still regarded as the best ruckmen in the AFL, spoken of as one of the best all time! Hey... I've got a good idea, let's move him on! HAHAHAHAHA!

  On 01/09/2024 at 00:47, Deestar9 said:

Haven’t got time & can’t be bothered (need to close this thread) but would you like to list all the issues that occurred at Collingwood whilst Pendles was Captain…no..wouldn’t think so 

Did I list Pendlebury as a good captain did I?? What's Pendles got to do with this actual discussion? Way to miss a point old timer.

If anything Nick Maxwell was a much better captain then Pendles.

Gus may have been a good option. Probably the only realistic one in a world where we have the current version of Tracc...but alas

In Max I Trust

  On 01/09/2024 at 00:54, dazzledavey36 said:

Did I list Pendlebury as a good captain did I?? What's Pendles got to do with this actual discussion? Way to miss a point old timer.

If anything Nick Maxwell was a much better captain then Pendles.

I think deestars point was every club has had cultural/behavioural issues irrespective of who the captain was. 

There was stuff at Richmond too under cotchin

Winning covers up a lot.  Dazzle talks about Hodge but he had a number of off field incidents, including his own drink driving issues during a finals series, the mysterious Hawthorn drug scandal that somehow all went away, involving you know who, the fracture between the club and it's indigenous players which came to light recently. Yet three flags in a row papers over the cultural cracks.

https://www.afl.com.au/news/199051/hawks-skipper-hodge-caught-drink-driving

In my view a captain has to be an on baller, not someone stuck in the goal square shouting instructions to someone up the other end of the ground like Lever or May would have to.

I'd be happy for Riv to be captain and have jack Max and trac as vc/deputies 

The old heads to guide and the young gun to be the face of the next generation.

But that's me....

  On 01/09/2024 at 00:51, waynewussell said:

Let me see... Max is widely regarded as one of the best Captains we have had, one of the best in the comp. He has just come off his 7th AA and has been the public face of the efforts to retain Tracc. He is still regarded as the best ruckmen in the AFL, spoken of as one of the best all time! Hey... I've got a good idea, let's move him on! HAHAHAHAHA!

He definitely is and will be admitted to the Legends AFL HofF. 

Not sure people are advocating to 'move him on'.  I'm looking for an orderly, planned transition. 

Question:  when and how do you think we should transition the captaincy given 2027 will be his last year.  I say 'transition' because I hope Max is still playing when he hands over to help the new skipper.

  On 31/08/2024 at 11:34, rpfc said:

I think it’s time. 

You don’t have to agree but I think it’s a conversation worth having.

 

Max is cooked, riding around on his pusher with his son singing good old Collingwood forever sent me over the top.

I would promote Langdon as skipper with Lever as two I.C.

 

  On 01/09/2024 at 01:13, Lucifers Hero said:

I'm looking for an orderly, planned transition. 

Totally agree.  Max is fine for the mo, but I would go for Lever then Rivers.  I think we need to go younger, on and off the field.

  On 01/09/2024 at 01:13, Lucifers Hero said:

He definitely is and will be admitted to the Legends AFL HofF. 

Not sure people are advocating to 'move him on'.  I'm looking for an orderly, planned transition. 

Question:  when and how do you think we should transition the captaincy given 2027 will be his last year.  I say 'transition' because I hope Max is still playing when he hands over to help the new skipper.

Answer: When Max thinks it’s time!

  On 31/08/2024 at 23:18, rpfc said:

I expected the response, and I don’t think it is wrong.

Where I am coming from is that we (the royal ‘we’ - not each individual) are questioning Pert, Roffey, Richardson, Lamb, and Goodwin for various aspects of the predicament we are in.

Max can’t be questioned as the leader of the group having such problems?

Of course he can be, and any Coach or Footy Head or Director worth their salt should be asking strong, possibly disrespectful, questions of the democratic leader of the playing group.

And I am not taking about performance, I am talking about standards, behaviour, and the seeming schism in the leadership of that playing group.

Maybe its Lever now, maybe its a redeemed CP5 in 2026, but I just haven’t been impressed and it’s worth a discussion.

I think there’s a body of evidence that suggests Gawn is not going to sit down with a player and read them the riot act like Selwood used to do. Selwood was so hardline and uncompromising in his approach to attitude and focus that he intimidated 1st year players but it had a positive effect on the standards they upheld. Geelong officials were a little worried that once he left there would be a void. 

Does all that make Gawn a bad leader? Nope. Maybe we needed to better complement him with different leaders from the playing group and a harder line from the coaching staff. I think you can take it to the bank that Gawn’s concerns relate to culture just like Trac. But I do take your point that he has been captain during some interesting developments to say the least.

I have a lot of faith in some of our younger players. Faith that they will step up in terms of performance and also step up their leadership. They will help drive the club forward next season and will be future leaders of the club.

Ultimately, I would like Lever to be next in line but still think Gawn is the next option for next season. By which stage we have righted the ship or potentially another player has stepped up to the plate.

Maybe someone else can Step up and help him out? Do they need the title to do that.  Of there's things he's not good at, give him some f'n help 

  On 01/09/2024 at 01:46, waynewussell said:

Answer: When Max thinks it’s time!

Thanks for answer.

My view is Max should stay captain in 2025, hand over in 2026 if our dramas are sorted, if not at the latest 2027 while he is still playing.

  On 01/09/2024 at 01:48, JJJ said:

I think there’s a body of evidence that suggests Gawn is not going to sit down with a player and read them the riot act like Selwood used to do. Selwood was so hardline and uncompromising in his approach to attitude and focus that he intimidated 1st year players but it had a positive effect on the standards they upheld. Geelong officials were a little worried that once he left there would be a void. 

Does all that make Gawn a bad leader? Nope. Maybe we needed to better complement him with different leaders from the playing group and a harder line from the coaching staff. I think you can take it to the bank that Gawn’s concerns relate to culture just like Trac. But I do take your point that he has been captain during some interesting developments to say the least.

I have a lot of faith in some of our younger players. Faith that they will step up in terms of performance and also step up their leadership. They will help drive the club forward next season and will be future leaders of the club.

Ultimately, I would like Lever to be next in line but still think Gawn is the next option for next season. By which stage we have righted the ship or potentially another player has stepped up to the plate.

Would love to see Selwood as an assistant hardass 

legend of a person, awesome player, brilliant leader

trust in max to make the decision when he wants to relinquish the leadership

Some nuanced responses, some (ahem) less nuanced - but I appreciate the gravity.

I think @JJJ hits the nail pretty close to the head on the type of leader that Max is and how that can be great in some areas (player comfort, self-actualisation, young players allowed to be themselves, etc) and lacking in the areas that a hard arsed, zero compromising leader would be.

I suppose I would want some home truths for Max if nothing else - if we are to do a review it should include the playing group and the leadership in the locker room. And of course that would include Jack, Jake, Steven, and Christian.

Just a final thought - Max is likened to the great Jimmy Stynes in leadership and values; he even seems to model and imbue it. Stynes was never captain and had some very strong leaders - in personality and style to partner with. One can take that multiple ways and they are probably both right.