15 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Id like to understand more about the ball movement measure. Of course we're going to be one of the quickest ball movement teams if we are just slamming the ball on the boot and kicking it as far forward as we can without trying to retain possession, hit up a target etc. It is related to our poor inside 50s, we just slam the ball on the boot and kick it on top of players heads or to packs. Perhaps we should be more considered with our ball movement and focus on retaining possession, kicking to teammates advantage and being in the best position to score goals instead of just moving it forward as quick as we can at all costs.

Being quick at ball movement doesn't mean we are a quick team, or even a good team.

Asked this in the stats thread.

Is it just speed of ball movement that this measures or does metres gained and effectiveness of chains come into it?

1 hour ago, beelzebub said:

Bravo....

It strikes me as a classic case of interim/caretakers not wanting to stir or muddy waters lest they end up part of washup themselves.

Hate to say this but we lack the backbone that a successful org needs. We're just too NICE a mob. It does run like a boys club, not an accountable business. Do these people really strive for success or is it more about cozy cloisters ? A great place to hobnob and network ?

There was a sense of hunger before 21.. none now...

Carry on chaps... pass the cheese and Shiraz

We are not a serious club

16 minutes ago, old dee said:

So we rinse and repeat 2024 and 2025 Macca that is the most depressing thing I have heard this year. I think I will go back to bed and pull the Donna over my head. Come and get me when the nightmare is over.

And just to rub it in we're stuck with at least 6 players on medium to big long term contracts who are past their best (or well past their best)

For what it is worth, if Goodwin was only contracted for this season then I'd be probably advocating a change at the top

But a huge payout figure in the $Millions? No, we have to ride it out. Contracts are contracts and no one walks away from big money (generally)

Ange Postecoglou stood firm and didn't quit or walk away ... result? Close on $10Million pay out

Edited July 4Jul 4 by Macca

57 minutes ago, Macca said:

If we sacked Goodwin now we'd have to pay him for this year and next year ... and he is on at least $1Million per season. Could be $1.2Million per season

Plus, we'd incur the FD tax which is 75% with a maximum payout of $750k

On this thread, the payout has been widely talked about with links surrounding the payout figure. It's not news

Why would we have to pay 1M for this season when the year is half over? Is it because there is a failure to complete ALL of the contract this year (to 23:59::99 on 31/12/2025)?

Not a commercial/contract lawyer, so a serious question

1 minute ago, Superunknown said:

Why would we have to pay 1M for this season when the year is half over? Is it because there is a failure to complete ALL of the contract this year (to 23:59::99 on 31/12/2025)?

Not a commercial/contract lawyer, so a serious question

It would be more like $500k to $600k this year plus up to $1.2Million next year plus the FD Tax 75% or $$750k

I thought everyone knew about the potential payout.

1 minute ago, Macca said:

And just to rub it in we're stuck with at least 6 players on medium to big contracts who are past their best

For what it is worth, if Goodwin was only contracted for this season then I'd be probably advocating a change at the top

But a huge payout figure? No, we have to ride it out

Well I'll make a promise Macca. It will bring joy to many i have no doubt.

If Goodwin is coaching next year . I.e if he isn't sacked at this seasons end or there about, I will refrain from even a single post til the end of H/a '26.

There will be no interest or care on my part . It will be a similar malaise. It will be a waste of a year and I've better things to see and do than watch 24/25 repeat.

39 minutes ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

That is an extraordinarily high salary for the product we see week in week out.

But then I realise Clarry is being paid in that neighbourhood as well (maybe a bit less)....so...

Coaches get well paid these days

It's not news either

1 minute ago, beelzebub said:

Well I'll make a promise Macca. It will bring joy to many i have no doubt.

If Goodwin is coaching next year . I.e if he isn't sacked at this seasons end or there about, I will refrain from even a single post til the end of H/a '26.

There will be no interest or care on my part . It will be a similar malaise. It will be a waste of a year and I've better things to see and do than watch 24/25 repeat.

Your choice, bub

I'll ride it out as it's club first and individuals a long way behind (Players, Coaches, Administrators, President, CEO etc)

1 hour ago, PaulRB said:

Lots of prognosticators and finger pointing on this thread. I think we’re 2 years into a 3-year transformation to address the issues that plagued us in 22-23. In that time we’ve recruited Windsor, Kolt, Langford and Lindsay all quick skilled ball users, that indicates the FD is rectifying our poor ball use. Parallel to this we are developing 2 high draft tall forwards in JVR and Jeffo, both whom had great promise but have been slow to bloom at AFL level.

Both of these two strategies will take time to bear fruit.

In the meanwhile we’re evolving the rest of the team to leverage our new kids, meet the evolving AFL game and milk the remaining years from our genuine (but aging) stars.

Year 3, next year is when it will click, and unfortunately we just need to hold our nerve till then.

Only the absence of a plan to improve us would warrant Goody’s removal.

Good summary, I’m astounded some are saying we haven’t changed the game plan.

Whilst we’ve seen some of the old long bomb rear it’s head in the last 4 games it’s more to do with old heads reverting to ingrained habits as opposed to a game plan of getting it in deep and quick to the pocket to lock it in.

The way we’re trying to move it from the back half is the big change, it’s looked really good at times but also broken down with not everyone totally in sync.

Having said that Goody may not see the rebuild on the run out, this is where the President and CEO not being in place yet may be a factor. Everyone needs to be on the same page and stability is your best player.

Quite frankly I don't understand why simple messages aren't getting through. It's not hard.

I've played in teams where the coach was adamant.. "No wild kicking, no bombing, DO NOT kick to a contested goal square".. " hold it ... ( then turning to.us).. lead .. get rid of your man ...give these guys ( pointing to mids etc ) something to [censored] kick to " .. any bombing I'll drag you... !!

Guess what we did as he said.. didn't take us 3 seasons of fluffing around.. a few got dragged.. some did extra laps... some dropped.. but the message was LOUD, CLEAR .. and UNDERSTOOD.

BTW.. there is a difference between a long kick specifically to advantage ( indeed a player ) and a wild thumping hail Mary of a bomb..

I'm stuffed if I can understand what Goody tells them... or why they keep playing dumb footy.

35 minutes ago, Macca said:

And just to rub it in we're stuck with at least 6 players on medium to big long term contracts who are past their best (or well past their best)

For what it is worth, if Goodwin was only contracted for this season then I'd be probably advocating a change at the top

But a huge payout figure in the $Millions? No, we have to ride it out. Contracts are contracts and no one walks away from big money (generally)

Ange Postecoglou stood firm and didn't quit or walk away ... result? Close on $10Million pay out

And this is why I had some questions about the Kozzie contract (despite the fact that he's probably the first that you would give this contract to right now). We've given out some mega deals lately and that extends to players like Jack Viney who needed needed a solid deal to commit.

I felt that people looked at this with the belief that our list was set and ready to go again for years to come. I don't believe it is.

We have a reasonable nucleus and many areas covered but we have some glaring holes and some areas covered for now but no succession plan at all. It's not like 4 or 5 years ago when keeping the gang together was all we needed to focus on, we need space there to be ready to throw at any out of contract player that can possibly help us, especially with compromised drafts coming up in future years.

Big calls need to be made now and this is what happens when you back yourself into a corner with big contracts.

10 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Quite frankly I don't understand why simple messages aren't getting through.

It seems we're asking players to move the ball more quickly than we used to - i.e. mark, turn and kick... or mark, "drive legs" and kick... or mark, turn, and give the quick handball... as opposed to mark, stop, ignore risky first option, take safe option (most likely down the line). At the same time we're "working very hard on our connection" and have been for what seems like an eternity.

These two message - move it faster and hit more blokes inside 50 - might be simple, but the execution is difficult. And half the problem is the first makes the second easier in some respects and harder in others.

Yes, it gives the opposition less time to set up as we apparently used to do so well and so the kick inside 50 isn't two a swarm. (I imagine part of the reason the game has moved towards faster ball movement is because coaches said "We can't let the reigning Premiers put up that defensive roadblock. We need to give them less time to organise.) But it also asks players to make the most difficult skills in all of sport - kicking an oval ball 15 to 50 metres to a fairly small area while moving at very high speed - even harder. Kick an oval ball 15 to 50 metres to a fairly small area while moving at very high speed and don't pause to assess. Just kick.

I wonder if when we talk about players like Oliver, Petracca and Viney reverting to old habits, it's not a case of ignoring instructions. It's an ineffective attempt at a very explicit instruction: get it and move it.

What I don't quite get is why that "move it" doesn't include WAY more handball - although I suspect it has a bit to do with players like Oliver and Viney having lost the explosiveness and constant run you need to link chains of handball. Collingwood tear teams apart with forward handball. We've shown we can do it as well. But only in quarters and halves.

Edited July 4Jul 4 by The Taciturn Demon

3 minutes ago, The Taciturn Demon said:

It seems we're asking players to move the ball more quickly than we used to - i.e. mark, turn and kick or mark, "drive legs" and kick, or mark, turn, and give the quick handball... as opposed to mark, stop, ignore risky first option, take safe option (most likely down the line). At the same time we're "working very hard on our connection" and have been for what seems like an eternity.

These two message - move it faster and hit more blokes inside 50 - might be simple, but the execution is difficult. And half the problem is the first makes the second easier in some respects and harder in others.

Yes, it gives the opposition less time to set up as we apparently used to do so well and so the kick inside 50 isn't two a swarm. (I imagine part of the reason the game has moved towards faster ball movement is because coaches said "We can't let the reigning Premiers put up that defensive roadblock. We need to give them less time to organise.) But it also asks players to make the most difficult skills in all of sport - kicking an oval ball 15 to 50 metres to a fairly small area while moving at very high speed - even harder. Kick an oval ball 15 to 50 metres to a fairly small area while moving at very high speed and don't pause to assess. Just kick.

I wonder if when we talk about players like Oliver, Petracca and Viney reverting to old habits, it's not a case of ignoring instructions. It's an ineffective attempt at a very explicit instruction: get it and move it.

What I don't quite get is why that "move it" doesn't include WAY more handball - although I suspect it has a bit to do with players like Oliver and Viney having lost the explosiveness and constant run you need to link chains of handball. Collingwood tear teams apart with forward handball. We've shown we can do it as well. But only in quarters and halves.

A good write up which to me raises even more questions, especially in the forward half. Why so little leading.. or kicking to advantage ? Surely this is the B that goes with A ??

I, indeed most observers, see very little creation of targets.

If you're going to move the ball quickly you need spread and targets.

Do our coaches know this ?? 🤔 Are they telling anyone? Do they train this ?

We still in my view play a very one dimensional game. It's all about out defence. Even in the forward 50 it seems more about defending the arc than actually knowing how to attack. I would have always thought the emphasis would automatically morph from defence to attack as you cross the centre. It strikes me we don't. We maintain this defending mindset. It's all wrong. We seem more concerned about countering opposition defenders than thinking they should be worrying about us.

In a fashion I kind of get Frittas attitude ( or what appears to be ) of being more occupied in his play about attacking and less the other. I must admit my thinking when playing was never about a "defensive" mindset up forward it was always attack. If i had it it was to score or score assist. If they had it it was to attack them to get the ball to score or score assist. Never entered my mind to 'defend' the zone, guard the ball etc.

We seem to do a lot of strange things...and also a lot of things by halves.

But back to 'speed ball'.. speed isnt everything. Ought to keep in mind Haste makes Waste.

By all means be decisive, be expedient but I would have tbought above all, be USEFUL. We seem fast, but wasteful.

There's no one size ( or speed ) fits all answer.

What skills tuition do we employ ?

Other teams have this much better balanced and organised.

5 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

kicking to advantage

I would argue kicking to advantage has been a problem for a very long time, and we won in 21 in spite of it remaining a problem. A more charitable take might be that Goodwin found a way to mitigate it as a problem - i.e. "This team struggles to consistently kick to advantage - let's find a style that rewards low-risk, low-accuracy kicking."

I'm not a good enough observer of the game to understand why we seem to so infrequently make or hit leads. My probably dull observation is that when Kozzie kicks inside fifty suddenly our leading problem appears magically fixed.

I would be astonished if we didn't train it or if the FD department didn't put an emphasis on it. I just think we're a team, whether through calcified habit, or outright lack of skill, that has a greater-than-average proportion of players who can't lower their eyes and drill a hard, accurate pass. Gold Coast showed us up with this last week. Numerous teams have for years.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/afl/their-strength-has-become-a-liability-the-problem-with-carlton-and-how-to-fix-it-20250703-p5mc4s.html

Insert Melbourne instead of Carlton!

took too long to realise to change game plan. now failing to imprint the new game plan he talks about on the team.

2 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Well I'll make a promise Macca. It will bring joy to many i have no doubt.

If Goodwin is coaching next year . I.e if he isn't sacked at this seasons end or there about, I will refrain from even a single post til the end of H/a '26.

There will be no interest or care on my part . It will be a similar malaise. It will be a waste of a year and I've better things to see and do than watch 24/25 repeat.

You are not alone bb.

4 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Well I'll make a promise Macca. It will bring joy to many i have no doubt.

If Goodwin is coaching next year . I.e if he isn't sacked at this seasons end or there about, I will refrain from even a single post til the end of H/a '26.

There will be no interest or care on my part . It will be a similar malaise. It will be a waste of a year and I've better things to see and do than watch 24/25 repeat.

Haha Beelz. What, you’ll revert back to being an emoji guy again?Where would i then get my daily analogy fix? (Or 2 or 3 or 4?).

Whether Goody goes or stays( and I’m leaning well towards the former) this site would be poorer without your input. I see you and @Ghostwriter as polar opposites, and we need this Yin and Yang for balance.

(Although I think you are both somewhat deranged).

Edited July 4Jul 4 by Neil Crompton

8 minutes ago, Neil Crompton said:

Whether Goody goes or stays( and I’m leaning well towards the former) this site would be poorer without your input. I see you and @Ghostwriter as polar opposites, and we need this Yin and Yang for balance.

(Although I think you are both somewhat deranged).

No, NC. We actually don’t. Seriously, we don’t. Yin will be fine and dandy without Yang. If Beelzebub wants to take an entire season’s break from posting, why stand in his way?! For the love of all that’s good and holy, let the man take a well-earned break!

PS: Maybe we are both somewhat deranged, the difference is I’m deranged in a good way. 🙃

7 minutes ago, Ghostwriter said:

No, NC. We actually don’t. Seriously, we don’t. Yin will be fine and dandy without Yang. If Beelzebub wants to take an entire season’s break from posting, why stand in his way?! For the love of all that’s good and holy, let the man take a well-earned break!

PS: Maybe we are both somewhat deranged, the difference is I’m deranged in a good way. 🙃

Now that's a real matter of opinion

What if by the time we finally get our heads around the new game plan / have the players to implement it properly the game has already moved on again? 😆

7 hours ago, Macca said:

Again, players are responsible for their own form, kicking for goal, going hard at the contest etc etc

I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that we need to overhaul the list and reboot

And don't forget that Goodwin stays because of his contract, so you and others are stuck with him no matter how much he might annoy you

Wont annoy me and others as I have said if he coaches next year I WON'T be putting my hard earned into a membership, simple as that!

4 hours ago, layzie said:

And this is why I had some questions about the Kozzie contract (despite the fact that he's probably the first that you would give this contract to right now). We've given out some mega deals lately and that extends to players like Jack Viney who needed needed a solid deal to commit.

I felt that people looked at this with the belief that our list was set and ready to go again for years to come. I don't believe it is.

We have a reasonable nucleus and many areas covered but we have some glaring holes and some areas covered for now but no succession plan at all. It's not like 4 or 5 years ago when keeping the gang together was all we needed to focus on, we need space there to be ready to throw at any out of contract player that can possibly help us, especially with compromised drafts coming up in future years.

Big calls need to be made now and this is what happens when you back yourself into a corner with big contracts.

Yep, handing out the big contracts is always risky

But that's the era we've entered

18 minutes ago, picket fence said:

Wont annoy me and others as I have said if he coaches next year I WON'T be putting my hard earned into a membership, simple as that!

Pour yourself a Double Jack, picket!😁

Edited July 4Jul 4 by Macca

Our senior players are under performing badly

And so is goody.

Other than some promising youngsters we’re stuffed

There shouldn't be much structure going forward. It should be up to the players to create.

A structured forward line = predictable.

Read up about Guardiola's tactics that revolutionised soccer.

Yes this isn't soccer but many aspects have been already copied particularly from the back half.