14 minutes ago, von said:

Listening to the media is not in anyone’s interest. They are reactive, short sighted and over the top. They also aren’t that bright and misuse words and phrases regularly.

Correct. But they also run 24/7

2 hours ago, von said:

That seems simplistic to me. You can maintain high standards across all areas and it may not lead to on field success. What if you just don’t have the players you need? Your list and the injuries you get along the way are in large part due to luck.  It almost feels like you are setting yourself disappointed with unrealistic standards.

 

So 2019 was a no good waste of time but the year we had to have to learn how to defend? It’s hard to assess from the outside. We don’t know how this season is being viewed internally. In elite sport it takes two tenths of not much to fall away badly. Doesn’t mean the sky is falling or that the future may not be bright.

So you are happy with the way the season is unfolding? I'm at a loss as to how you can believe the club are, or could be  satisfied with the way we have played this year. How else could the season be viewed by the club other than a complete failure, what positives do you think they would get from it? Perhaps they could be happy with the way Grundy is playing, justifying their decision to give him away, Or maybe the biggest loss we have had since Goodwin became coach. Or perhaps how Oliver has had the worst season since he joined the club. There is something wrong at Melbourne and if you can't see that then you haven't looked hard enough.

5 minutes ago, Dante said:

There is something wrong at Melbourne 

It would be very hard to argue against this view.

18 hours ago, von said:

Is culture more powerful than luck with injuries? Does a season outside the 8 mean culture is shot? The way the system is created means it’s very hard to defy gravity for too long. Do down years and rebuilds always point to poor culture? Hawthorn were very successful but it turns out may have not had the best culture. I think people are defining different things as culture. Our culture looked shot in 2019 but it was for the greater good in the end and our culture came through and won us a flag. 

I'd say that as things stand, hawthorn will win a flag before we do.

1 hour ago, von said:

Listening to the media is not in anyone’s interest. They are reactive, short sighted and over the top. They also aren’t that bright and misuse words and phrases regularly.

The media was talking about this before the season started, before we started losing, before we started getting beaten by second rate teams, before we got belted by Freo.  You just can't see that there's a problem all you can do is offer excuses. 

2 hours ago, Dante said:

The media was talking about this before the season started, before we started losing, before we started getting beaten by second rate teams, before we got belted by Freo.  You just can't see that there's a problem all you can do is offer excuses. 

The media are generally full of [censored]. I’m not offering any excuses. I’m just arguing the point about what defines culture and that ours is quite possibly fine despite things currently not going our way. Just cause Clarry has had a tough time doesn’t mean our culture is shot. Him getting back to his best best year would be a sign that it’s actually quite a good culture.

2 hours ago, Dante said:

I'd say that as things stand, hawthorn will win a flag before we do.

So despite them being terrible for a long time now they have better culture than us? Despite the allegations around their culture under Clarkson their culture is still better than ours? It’s easy to get caught up in short term trends and most football supporters and the media do.

2 hours ago, Dante said:

So you are happy with the way the season is unfolding? I'm at a loss as to how you can believe the club are, or could be  satisfied with the way we have played this year. How else could the season be viewed by the club other than a complete failure, what positives do you think they would get from it? Perhaps they could be happy with the way Grundy is playing, justifying their decision to give him away, Or maybe the biggest loss we have had since Goodwin became coach. Or perhaps how Oliver has had the worst season since he joined the club. There is something wrong at Melbourne and if you can't see that then you haven't looked hard enough.

None of what you have mentioned necessarily screams culture. We play in a socialist league. You can’t always succeed. There’s very few clubs globally that do and they are bankrolled in leagues that don’t have the same salary caps as we do. 
 

im not satisfied with how we are playing at the moment but afl is a hard and strange game. I thought gws were a shoo in earlier this year and they’re doing as well as we are. Yet they played a prelim last year. Things happen. The bulldogs are the second best team in it statistically at the moment. They supposedly have a poor culture according to some. 
 

I just don’t correlate performance over one year with culture, whatever that word means to you. 

3 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Correct. But they also run 24/7

Yeah I know. I’ve chosen to ignore it all and watch games on mute. I can already feel my life expectancy going up. Plenty of good conversation on here that keeps me going.

8 hours ago, von said:

It is a tough industry and comparing yourself to Geelong might be a waste of time. Not every basketballer is Michael Jordan. Not every footballer is Gary Ablett. Doesn’t mean they aren’t professional and working to high standards. But you are starting to differentiate between culture and high performance. You can have great culture while working on your high performance and your recruiting. Recruiting is largely luck too. Who’s available and when might not always suit your needs and stamping your feet saying we didn’t get what we need doesn’t help or change the fact that it’s a lot of luck. 

Culture drives performance, if you are not performing then there is something in your culture that needs improvement. We have underperformed in 4 of the last 5 years and are looking at another season of underperformance this year. We have the off field issues which I won't go into at the risk of being banned but which everyone is well aware of. How much of that was excused because we were winning? Is that a good culture?

Blaming bad luck in sport is a cop out. You make your own luck. I'm not saying we should be burning the place down if we don't win the flag every year but we should be competing in Prelims every year we are in our window. We haven't and have underperformed and part of that needs to be looked at from a cultural perspective. Yes we may have good training standards, good relationships between coaches, players and staff, good environment for the players which they feel happy and comfortable with - but do we have the ruthless "win at all costs" mentality that is needed to succeed in elite sport? I don't think we do and it is apparent in the way we play, the way we fail to put lowly teams away and give them a sniff of victory, the way we panic in front of hostile crowds, the way we second guess ourselves against physically aggressive teams, our arrogance towards the game and the opposition. That arrogance has been apparent for many years, remember around 2016/17 our players mouthing off to the Saints players about playing finals and then we subsequently missed the finals? And this was after a decade outside finals!

If we are honest with ourselves we would say we have a good culture, maybe a very good culture - but we do not have a great culture. If we want that consistent high performance and success we will be doing everything we can to achieve it including implementing non negotiable standards and a ruthless mentality. We talk a lot about it but we cannot do it, or if we do we cannot sustain it. We also talk a lot about respecting the game, respecting the opposition but we don't or at least when we do we cannot sustain it. If we could sustain those things (ruthlessness and respecting the game and the opposition) we would be a consistently high performing team. In 5 of the last 6 years (this year included) that hasn't been the case.

Edit - that culture and mentality is club wide, it is not just on the players or footy dept. It also comes from the way our club presents itself in the media, the way we stand up for ourselves against the AFL and other clubs. You don't have to come out swinging every time but you don't have to meekly accept the status quo either.

Edited June 18, 2024Jun 18 by Dr. Gonzo

I wrote a thread about this (Culture) at the start of 2022 and got roundly smashed and laughed at. It is clear to me most here do not understand what culture is or the role it plays. That probably runs true for the footy public at large as well.

The signs have been there since very early 2022 if you cared to see them, or knew what to look for. We briefly got it right in 21 (whether we won the flag or not - you could see it, feel it) but It hasn't been right for a long time.

It's a reflection of the leadership. Whether it can be rebuilt under that same leadership, I'm not sure, but even if it was the list is far less in quality.

I also wrote a thread before the start of this year about how the midfield was threadbare and we were a Trac injury away from missing finals. Well. 

I don't know how to find these old threads but it would be interesting to re-read with some hindsight

26 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Culture drives performance, if you are not performing then there is something in your culture that needs improvement. We have underperformed in 4 of the last 5 years and are looking at another season of underperformance this year. We have the off field issues which I won't go into at the risk of being banned but which everyone is well aware of. How much of that was excused because we were winning? Is that a good culture?

Blaming bad luck in sport is a cop out. You make your own luck. I'm not saying we should be burning the place down if we don't win the flag every year but we should be competing in Prelims every year we are in our window. We haven't and have underperformed and part of that needs to be looked at from a cultural perspective. Yes we may have good training standards, good relationships between coaches, players and staff, good environment for the players which they feel happy and comfortable with - but do we have the ruthless "win at all costs" mentality that is needed to succeed in elite sport? I don't think we do and it is apparent in the way we play, the way we fail to put lowly teams away and give them a sniff of victory, the way we panic in front of hostile crowds, the way we second guess ourselves against physically aggressive teams, our arrogance towards the game and the opposition. That arrogance has been apparent for many years, remember around 2016/17 our players mouthing off to the Saints players about playing finals and then we subsequently missed the finals? And this was after a decade outside finals!

If we are honest with ourselves we would say we have a good culture, maybe a very good culture - but we do not have a great culture. If we want that consistent high performance and success we will be doing everything we can to achieve it including implementing non negotiable standards and a ruthless mentality. We talk a lot about it but we cannot do it, or if we do we cannot sustain it. We also talk a lot about respecting the game, respecting the opposition but we don't or at least when we do we cannot sustain it. If we could sustain those things (ruthlessness and respecting the game and the opposition) we would be a consistently high performing team. In 5 of the last 6 years (this year included) that hasn't been the case.

Edit - that culture and mentality is club wide, it is not just on the players or footy dept. It also comes from the way our club presents itself in the media, the way we stand up for ourselves against the AFL and other clubs. You don't have to come out swinging every time but you don't have to meekly accept the status quo either.

One of the best posts in a while.

Bad luck covers a lot of things - bad luck with injuries, mismanaging training loads and tough fixtures, inaccuracy in big finals. Anyone bemoaning things like this is using the bad luck excuse which frankly is a bit pathetic after a big enough sample data size. 

I would agree that we have a good and strong culture, but you don't just reach a ceiling with it and stop. It is a continuous process to keep improving and getting better where you can. I don't see much to suggest much improvement or that the fire burns strong enough for another tilt at glory. Whether it's the Entrecote incident or tongue in cheek jokes at B&F nights about us being better than the premiers (The latter which some people in attendance that night took great offense when I dared to bring it up back in October) or players personal lives changing rapidly, things have definitely changed. 

As for the way the club presents itself, I think a lot of us felt beaten up after last year's finals series. Whether we had a leg to stand on or not it seems like we got a bit stepped on. And while we're at it, Gus did a fair bit for culture too.

8 hours ago, layzie said:

As for the way the club presents itself, I think a lot of us felt beaten up after last year's finals series. Whether we had a leg to stand on or not it seems like we got a bit stepped on. And while we're at it, Gus did a fair bit for culture too.

Oh, this resonates! I did feel beaten up after the finals last year. Haven't being able to find the words that name this clearly. Thank you.

And, yes, Gus a huge loss in terms of culture.

9 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Culture drives performance, if you are not performing then there is something in your culture that needs improvement. We have underperformed in 4 of the last 5 years and are looking at another season of underperformance this year. We have the off field issues which I won't go into at the risk of being banned but which everyone is well aware of. How much of that was excused because we were winning? Is that a good culture?

Blaming bad luck in sport is a cop out. You make your own luck. I'm not saying we should be burning the place down if we don't win the flag every year but we should be competing in Prelims every year we are in our window. We haven't and have underperformed and part of that needs to be looked at from a cultural perspective. Yes we may have good training standards, good relationships between coaches, players and staff, good environment for the players which they feel happy and comfortable with - but do we have the ruthless "win at all costs" mentality that is needed to succeed in elite sport? I don't think we do and it is apparent in the way we play, the way we fail to put lowly teams away and give them a sniff of victory, the way we panic in front of hostile crowds, the way we second guess ourselves against physically aggressive teams, our arrogance towards the game and the opposition. That arrogance has been apparent for many years, remember around 2016/17 our players mouthing off to the Saints players about playing finals and then we subsequently missed the finals? And this was after a decade outside finals!

If we are honest with ourselves we would say we have a good culture, maybe a very good culture - but we do not have a great culture. If we want that consistent high performance and success we will be doing everything we can to achieve it including implementing non negotiable standards and a ruthless mentality. We talk a lot about it but we cannot do it, or if we do we cannot sustain it. We also talk a lot about respecting the game, respecting the opposition but we don't or at least when we do we cannot sustain it. If we could sustain those things (ruthlessness and respecting the game and the opposition) we would be a consistently high performing team. In 5 of the last 6 years (this year included) that hasn't been the case.

Edit - that culture and mentality is club wide, it is not just on the players or footy dept. It also comes from the way our club presents itself in the media, the way we stand up for ourselves against the AFL and other clubs. You don't have to come out swinging every time but you don't have to meekly accept the status quo either.

I blame bad luck and perhaps our fitness management for the last two years. Not culture. This year I am more open to other issues being involved. But last year we were one forward on the park away from playing a prelim and then all of a sudden, tada! Success. Tick that year off, culture is great. Which is part of the problem with having such a shallow metric of success for a club in any given year.  I think it’s easy to underestimate just how fine the margins are at the top level and how much luck is involved in converting your opportunities while you are in the window. St kilda never could, port often hover around the top 4 and don’t get much done. You must be doing a lot right just to make top 4 year after year in this brutal game. Just because some teams make it work doesn’t mean everyone can and will. Good to see you agree we have a very good culture. This was really my point. I’ve viewed us as implementing this very good culture since Paul Roos was around. But culture is built slowly from the ground up and we are clearly still building and establishing something very new for the club after years of having next to no culture. This year is a pain in the [censored] no doubt, but wait and see what we do in the off season and then I may or may not find more to agree with you about.

4 hours ago, von said:

I blame bad luck and perhaps our fitness management for the last two years. Not culture. This year I am more open to other issues being involved. But last year we were one forward on the park away from playing a prelim and then all of a sudden, tada! Success. Tick that year off, culture is great. Which is part of the problem with having such a shallow metric of success for a club in any given year.

It's not about any given year, it's about sustained performance.

If last year were an outlier then yes, you could write it off. But when you look at our performance since 2019 (this year included) 2021 is the outlier. We do not have the culture for sustained success, not at the moment. Maybe we are still building it, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

You didn't really address my underlying point though - what takes us from having a good culture to a great culture? What is impeding that? It's not just "bad luck".

38 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

It's not about any given year, it's about sustained performance.

If last year were an outlier then yes, you could write it off. But when you look at our performance since 2019 (this year included) 2021 is the outlier. We do not have the culture for sustained success, not at the moment. Maybe we are still building it, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

You didn't really address my underlying point though - what takes us from having a good culture to a great culture? What is impeding that? It's not just "bad luck".

It quite possibly is bad luck. Sometimes winning and losing a football game or a season is bad luck. Just ask st kilda. Some of the metrics you use for culture can be attributed to luck. Sports fans don’t seem to like the idea of luck but it’s everywhere all the time. The only Thing that seems to overcome luck in team sport globally is being bankrolled by the saudis. Billy bean spoke about how having a good system should balance out over a season but the finals aren’t big enough sample size to allow for the ups and downs of a season to balance out and you just have to hope for the best at that point. Based on that idea we’ve done very well for a while now. 
A good culture would look at everything and judge it all fairly, while constantly looking to improve standards year on year. I think that’s all you can do. Always look to bring better people in, keep updating and working on better ways to play the game and run the club. But again, there’s plenty of luck involved in that cause we can’t just buy who we want when we want and we can’t control how good a year the opposition is having on field etc. I don’t know what is looked at internally and how it is measured. Which is why I hesitate to discuss the idea of our culture being good or bad. None of us really know. 
it could be argued our attempt at changing our game plan this year is a sign of good culture. Keeping up with the game etc. It may mean short term pain for longer term relevance. We don’t know yet.

9 hours ago, von said:

It quite possibly is bad luck. Sometimes winning and losing a football game or a season is bad luck. Just ask st kilda. Some of the metrics you use for culture can be attributed to luck. Sports fans don’t seem to like the idea of luck but it’s everywhere all the time. The only Thing that seems to overcome luck in team sport globally is being bankrolled by the saudis. Billy bean spoke about how having a good system should balance out over a season but the finals aren’t big enough sample size to allow for the ups and downs of a season to balance out and you just have to hope for the best at that point. Based on that idea we’ve done very well for a while now. 
A good culture would look at everything and judge it all fairly, while constantly looking to improve standards year on year. I think that’s all you can do. Always look to bring better people in, keep updating and working on better ways to play the game and run the club. But again, there’s plenty of luck involved in that cause we can’t just buy who we want when we want and we can’t control how good a year the opposition is having on field etc. I don’t know what is looked at internally and how it is measured. Which is why I hesitate to discuss the idea of our culture being good or bad. None of us really know. 
it could be argued our attempt at changing our game plan this year is a sign of good culture. Keeping up with the game etc. It may mean short term pain for longer term relevance. We don’t know yet.

So rather than reflect on the reason this team has under performed for 5 of the last 6 seasons (and 6 of the last 8 really) and identify where we need to improve as a club to get to the level we want to be, you're willing to write it off as just bad luck?

Seems like head in the sand stuff to me, excuses which foster a poor culture.

I think the issue is we are looking at culture from different angles. You're looking at it from the point of view of the happiness, for lack of a better word, of the players - their relationships with each other and the coaches. On this measure I think we are quite good, at least that is the commentary in the media from players/ex-players. However I'm looking at culture as the driving force to get the best out of the players/club, a high performance environment that is built for success. On this measure I think our culture isn't great, we don't have the killer instinct needed for sustained success in elite sport.

The results speak for themselves, you can blame one year of underperforming on bad luck but you can't blame 75% of the last 8 years or last 4 years on bad luck. There will always be unfortunate variables impacting teams but the good ones roll with the punches and get on with it, they don't make excuses for poor results. Injuries, inaccuracy, weather, opponents, travel, fatigue whatever it is it is just excuses in the long run. And making excuses is weak in my view.

On 16/06/2024 at 12:04, sam6172 said:

Article from the West. Thoughts? Another beat up or kernels of truth? Link below

https://archive.md/u7nqN

I stopped reading when the article go to the part about our weak president, we have the worst one, when everything is going well she is everywhere, when things are going bad she says nothing, imagine if these things were said about Hawthorn when Jeff  was there or about Collingwood when Eddie McGuire was there, they would be on the front foot not like our weak president. 

some people's 'under performing' is different to the others

having made top four before the finals in the last three completed seasons for the first time since the 1960s and claimed a premiership in that time, i think we've been better than we've been in the last 60 years

2019 was a massive failure and 2020 was a disappointment

2018 was a success imo; 2017 was a fail

On 18/06/2024 at 19:02, von said:

Yeah I know. I’ve chosen to ignore it all and watch games on mute. I can already feel my life expectancy going up. Plenty of good conversation on here that keeps me going.

I'll throw one at you. Can you tell me how and why, and they are not mutually inclusive, there are so many teams at this juncture of this year that are not just newly competitive, but are contesting a Top 8 Position?

On 16/06/2024 at 12:32, Ollie fan said:

The way to get rid of this crud is to start  winning. Let's try doing that. 
 

I have to agree with one thing: it would be nice to hear from Kate - even if it is just platitudes.
 

 

You well hear from her when things are good, weak president never stands up for the club, only talks when things are going great 

1 hour ago, Demon trucker said:

I stopped reading when the article go to the part about our weak president, we have the worst one, when everything is going well she is everywhere, when things are going bad she says nothing, imagine if these things were said about Hawthorn when Jeff  was there or about Collingwood when Eddie McGuire was there, they would be on the front foot not like our weak president. 

Yet some will say both Hawthorn and Collingwood have been less arrogant and their culture improved with both Kennett and Maguire moving on

On 16/06/2024 at 14:29, DeeSpencer said:

Im hardly a Pert fan but this is brain dead stupid:

“When Demons’ CEO, Gary Pert declared on radio in October last year that: “Our culture at the club … is the best I’ve seen in 40 years”, that one statement opened the club up to immense scrutiny and a whole host of critics waiting for the club’s downfall.

It, in effect, loaded up the club with pressure it couldn’t handle.”

Our downfall has mostly been poor list management, perhaps some fitness but also a new game plan and natural playing group turnover and fatigue. It’s hard to be up for more than 3 years. It’s hard to reinvent a side to play a new way.

Has anyone written about Richmond’s culture for their collapse in 2022 and this year?

Our focus should be addressing any cultural issues for sure, but apart from that we need to keep stressing the culture is overwhelmingly good. Gawn, Viney, Tracc, ANB, Lever, Salem, Langdon, Chandler and so many more make it the best playing group culture we’ve had in decades. And I’d include the coaches in that too. Hard workers with close bonds to the players.

The challenge is to fix what needs to be fixed - which might involve a few changes for cultural reasons - but overwhelmingly to ignore whatever point Mick is actually trying to make and stay the course.

I disagree with the poor list management, gus was a big blow, considering the departure of JJ and harms, gus out of our control since he was cleared, only for the scientists to change there mind, it would have help if the made that assignment early would we have let harms go if we knew, and interns of the forward line, tell me what big key forwards where looking to leave last year I am sure the club would have looked at it, petty was going to be that forward, but no one is taking in count his serious foot injury, and no preseason, 

Any truth to the rumour that Malthouse use to poo in the change room showers after a game and would stomp it down the drain? 

Edited June 20, 2024Jun 20 by Ethan Tremblay

22 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

It's not about any given year, it's about sustained performance.

If last year were an outlier then yes, you could write it off. But when you look at our performance since 2019 (this year included) 2021 is the outlier. We do not have the culture for sustained success, not at the moment. Maybe we are still building it, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

You didn't really address my underlying point though - what takes us from having a good culture to a great culture? What is impeding that? It's not just "bad luck".

To go from good to great - once the guidelines and measures have been set in place takes time, determination, bye in, questioning every decision, rewarding positive behaviours and instilling Belief in the process and not letting setbacks, short term failures Or bad luck impact the final goal.