Midfield depth

[Redleg 37,576]

On 22/02/2024 at 17:02, dazzledavey36 said:

Would be throwing everything at Finn Callaghan at the end of the year.

Big bodied midfielder who's going to be a star of the competition. 

Good luck. Think he just signed a new contract late last year.

He is supposed to be great mates with Howes. Maybe the go home factor can arise.

 

Edited February 24 by Redleg

[Jeremy 596]

2 hours ago, Redleg said:

Good luck. Think he just signed a new contract late last year.

He is supposed to be great mates with Howes. Maybe the go home factor can arise.

 

Out of contract next year

[1858 219]

Mentioned last year our engine room was heading towards a cliff.

Petracca is beast mode - when fit, but last year showed he can't sustain a full year in the guts (which is understandable given how intense he plays) spending some time forward late in the year.

Viney - solid but getting on and at some stage will slow up. Done a lot of enforcer work over the years.

Oliver - unknown as to how many games he plays.

Sparrow - hasn't taken next step.

The rest are either wingers or makeshifters from other positions or kids who haven't played a game.

Jordon was not A-grade but he is a loss. Used mostly in guts and was building. He will be serviceable at Sydney.

Hop on the Dees website and look at the players breakdown by position. 19 listed as forwards FFS. Sure, some might get some mid time like Pickett and ANB but Pickett will be managed timewise and ANB is not engine room calibre full stop. 

IMO we have flirted with the last two off-seasons trade and draft wise.

Goodwin has ridden on the shoulders of Gawn , Trac , Oliver for too long and I think it will catch up with us in 2024.

I'm not saying some of the players we've picked up over the last few years are no good but we are too short on specialist mids. 

If 1 of Trac, Oliver or Viney goes down we are getting chopped up week in week out.

 

[Demonsterative 1,914]

Not so sure about the worry in the midfield. Our A game is Trac, Viney and Clarry. That is top shelf in any era! 
 

Harmes, JJ and Dunstan were never much of a back up. Serviceable at best. Caveat here is Harmes. He was very good when he was on. 
 

We have a good level of developing players in Rivers, Woe, Laurie, Windsor, Bowey and Judd who can play a role when needed. 
 

A pinch hitter in Pickett and Salem who can turn a game.

 

A tagger in ANB with the right match up. 
 

the weakness is foot skills.  Not personal. 

[Pates 9,536]

Brayshaw's loss is definitely going to expose our midfield depth, or possibly lack there of. But what it will also do is force some changes that perhaps were coming over time anyway. I've often felt that Rivers was destined for a midfield role, particularly after the Lions game last year where his boldness help us win the game.

We also do have a couple of young guns that we recruited and would be itching for a regular game. There is every chance there will be a bolter we don't see coming this season.

One thing last season did show is that we need the flexibility to send Trac forward, he is just too important forward of the ball.

[58er 5,608]

5 hours ago, 1858 said:

Mentioned last year our engine room was heading towards a cliff.

Petracca is beast mode - when fit, but last year showed he can't sustain a full year in the guts (which is understandable given how intense he plays) spending some time forward late in the year.

Viney - solid but getting on and at some stage will slow up. Done a lot of enforcer work over the years.

Oliver - unknown as to how many games he plays.

Sparrow - hasn't taken next step.

The rest are either wingers or makeshifters from other positions or kids who haven't played a game.

Jordon was not A-grade but he is a loss. Used mostly in guts and was building. He will be serviceable at Sydney.

Hop on the Dees website and look at the players breakdown by position. 19 listed as forwards FFS. Sure, some might get some mid time like Pickett and ANB but Pickett will be managed timewise and ANB is not engine room calibre full stop. 

IMO we have flirted with the last two off-seasons trade and draft wise.

Goodwin has ridden on the shoulders of Gawn , Trac , Oliver for too long and I think it will catch up with us in 2024.

I'm not saying some of the players we've picked up over the last few years are no good but we are too short on specialist mids. 

If 1 of Trac, Oliver or Viney goes down we are getting chopped up week in week out.

 

Your post na me is absolutely in song with your Petracca comments. 

Last season Trac was moved forward for one reason and one reason only. To try and solve our goal kicking problems. NOT because he needed a rest from the midfield. Boy  talk about not spoiling a good story with the truth!!!

 If any  Club has Trac Clarry JackV and Gawny the loss of one ( as per Clarry last season ) is crucial but it was handled with relative calm and good response overall. Sparrow seemed to go up a notch and the others ( admittedly Gus Brayshaw helped) were not completely beaten  up by any means. 
ANB Riv Kossie and Salem bring skills and Laurie and Woe can step up with cameos as required.

Our game plan and forward connectivity is the most important fact plus a fat  list to chose from all our forwards. 

Perhaps some look at it half full and others persist in half empty.I am always had full and believe our list is still good albeit in transition if we are serious. 

[Roost it far 6,043]

We have to allow Petracca to play game time forward, he’s a huge weapon close to goal. That means Viney, Oliver, Sparrow have to stay on the park, lose one of them and the dominoes start falling. We can only cover for one or more of them if McAdam and Petty are both fit allowing Petracca more midfield minutes. Rivers, Salem, Windsor, Bowey, Spargo and McVee can only have limited midfield minutes as they’re required elsewhere. Does anyone know if Fullarton is actually any good? If Gawn goes down we have a problem.

Edited February 25 by Roost it far

[58er 5,608]

11 minutes ago, Roost it far said:

We have to allow Petracca to play game time forward, he’s a huge weapon close to goal. That means Viney, Oliver, Sparrow have to stay on the park, lose one of them and the dominoes start falling. We can only cover for one or more of them if McAdam and Petty are both fit allowing Petracca more midfield minutes. Rivers, Salem, Windsor, Bowey, Spargo and McVee can only have limited midfield minutes as they’re required elsewhere. Does anyone know if Fullarton is actually any good? If Gawn goes down we have a problem.

You have done a sort if reasonable summary RIF.

Strangely my post earlier comes up with some similar thought's. 

I don’t have the apprehension most here have for our mids as I believe perhaps Goody will have to be creative no matter what. 
Perhaps he can also be as creative with the forwards as well. 

Out of the wreck we may find some rough diamonds who really develop quickly.

Life is always full of opportunities and let’s put faith in the list to produce like youth and some experience can do. 

There is a few shoots there who can grab the bull by the horns maybe. Let’s hope, let’s see. 

[drysdale demon 4,151]

4 minutes ago, 58er said:

You have done a sort if reasonable summary RIF.

Strangely my post earlier comes up with some similar thought's. 

I don’t have the apprehension most here have for our mids as I believe perhaps Goody will have to be creative no matter what. 
Perhaps he can also be as creative with the forwards as well. 

Out of the wreck we may find some rough diamonds who really develop quickly.

Life is always full of opportunities and let’s put faith in the list to produce like youth and some experience can do. 

There is a few shoots there who can grab the bull by the horns maybe. Let’s hope, let’s see. 

The herald sun journalists this past week rated our midfield as number 1 in the comp. Today they have rated our defence as number 1.

[Binmans PA 26,051]

Viney, Trac, Salem, Clarry, Rivers, Sparrow, Kozzy is a bloody good midfield. JJ is meat and potatoes and Harmes was fringe the last two years.

We have arguably the best midfield and defence in the comp. We need to improve forward of the ball, which may mean we need to give up a little bit of defensive stability to attack more from the back.

We've got a new brains trust in the midfield with 3 premierships of IP.

The lack of continuity across pre season hasn't been ideal, nor has the cultural and political noise, but we have the cattle if we get some luck with injury and some more dare with ball movement. 

As I've mentioned previously, I would be trying only two defensive talls in May and Lever, and prior to his retirement I would have played Gus as the intercepting mud sized player releasing Bowey, McVee, Rivers and possibly Howes. 

With no Gus now, I think our midfield will be fine, but our defensive set up will need some different ideas. I don't see Tomlinson or Tom McDonald as answers. Hore was a turnover merchant in his past MFC life, whilst a good interceptor, Tom McDonaldesque with ball in hand.

So midfield problems are being greatly exaggerated. It's defensively and offensively we have work to do.

[demoncat 631]

10 minutes ago, Binmans PA said:

Viney, Trac, Salem, Clarry, Rivers, Sparrow, Kozzy is a bloody good midfield. JJ is meat and potatoes and Harmes was fringe the last two years.

We have arguably the best midfield and defence in the comp. We need to improve forward of the ball, which may mean we need to give up a little bit of defensive stability to attack more from the back.

We've got a new brains trust in the midfield with 3 premierships of IP.

The lack of continuity across pre season hasn't been ideal, nor has the cultural and political noise, but we have the cattle if we get some luck with injury and some more dare with ball movement. 

As I've mentioned previously, I would be trying only two defensive talls in May and Lever, and prior to his retirement I would have played Gus as the intercepting mud sized player releasing Bowey, McVee, Rivers and possibly Howes. 

With no Gus now, I think our midfield will be fine, but our defensive set up will need some different ideas. I don't see Tomlinson or Tom McDonald as answers. Hore was a turnover merchant in his past MFC life, whilst a good interceptor, Tom McDonaldesque with ball in hand.

So midfield problems are being greatly exaggerated. It's defensively and offensively we have work to do.

Good analysis @Binmans PA - but I’m curious why you think we should trialling May and Lever as our two defensive talls

I thought that was when we looked our most vulnerable defensively last year and thought that having Tomlinson as the third tall settled our defence and allowed Lever to play his intercept game 

I guess the coaches need to weigh up including a NQR third tall for the sake of structure, or playing only two talls but having more quality and run from our backline

That’s why losing Disco for the first half of the season is a big blow - I was really hoping he’d come on and replace Tomlinson early in the season

Edited February 25 by demoncat

[Lil_red_fire_engine 10,171]

34 minutes ago, Binmans PA said:

 

As I've mentioned previously, I would be trying only two defensive talls in May and Lever, and prior to his retirement I would have played Gus as the intercepting mud sized player releasing Bowey, McVee, Rivers and possibly Howes. 

 

We've tried this before. It doesn't work defensively and actually derails Levers ability to intercept and for us to springboard effectively. Its a shame Turner is out of action but otherwise we need to use one of TMac or Tomlinson as a deep no frills, big body lock down defender. May and Lever need to play their natural game and the springboard needs to come with more run and dare from Bowey, McVee, Rivers, Salem, Howes. 

[dazzledavey36 48,734]

1 hour ago, Binmans PA said:

Viney, Trac, Salem, Clarry, Rivers, Sparrow, Kozzy is a bloody good midfield. JJ is meat and potatoes and Harmes was fringe the last two years.

We have arguably the best midfield and defence in the comp. We need to improve forward of the ball, which may mean we need to give up a little bit of defensive stability to attack more from the back.

We've got a new brains trust in the midfield with 3 premierships of IP.

The lack of continuity across pre season hasn't been ideal, nor has the cultural and political noise, but we have the cattle if we get some luck with injury and some more dare with ball movement. 

As I've mentioned previously, I would be trying only two defensive talls in May and Lever, and prior to his retirement I would have played Gus as the intercepting mud sized player releasing Bowey, McVee, Rivers and possibly Howes. 

With no Gus now, I think our midfield will be fine, but our defensive set up will need some different ideas. I don't see Tomlinson or Tom McDonald as answers. Hore was a turnover merchant in his past MFC life, whilst a good interceptor, Tom McDonaldesque with ball in hand.

So midfield problems are being greatly exaggerated. It's defensively and offensively we have work to do.

Not sure how you can name Salem, Rivers and Kozzie as 'bloody good midfield' options when there is still a lot of unknowns on whether they can step up when needed.

Sparrow I would say to some degree hasn't exactly taken the next step in proving he can become a quality midfielder in years to come.

He's a role player who needs to lift his numbers and input and not continue to live off averaging 16-17 disposals per game. Based of what I saw against Richmond I saw nothing in his game that suggest he's improved. Now I'm not using that as evidence to suggest that he won't improve this year but he absolutely needs to step up now with Brayshaw gone. He's got all the tight athletic tools but we barely see enough of it.

Rivers has only had minor spurts in there and taking him away from our backline does leave it vulnerable because he is just as good down back. He's the one out of the lot I see transitioning well into full time midfield role similar to what Elliot Yeo did when he started off as a defender in his early days.

Kozzie is very unknown still. Barely used there last year and doubt he has the tank to to play big minutes in there. Good for short bursts, but against the top sides like Collingwood who are elite at two way running then he'll need to step up in that area. Like Rivers, you're also taking his strengths away being an elite small forward because no one else in our teams comes even close to his level up forward.

There is zero evidence to suggest Salem can step into the midfield role and be successful. Goodwin has already trialled Salem as a starting mid in early 2018 and he was pretty ordinary so they had to move him back in his natural position down back

We've also trialled the two tall defenders thing and it simply does not work. One of the most bizarre coaching selections moves I saw was certainly not the not using Josh Schache sub but going into our first final against Collingwood with May and Lever as our only tall defenders. What was even more bizarre is that Goodwin admitted sometime last year that he prefers the 3 talls down back as it gives some like Lever to be released as the roaming 3rd tall.

That final against Collingwood we butchered up that team selection that badly that they had no other choice but to play Rivers on Dan McStay all night which completely took away his running game because he had to play a full lock down role.

Never again.

[Diamond_Jim 11,746]

2 hours ago, Binmans PA said:

I don't see Tomlinson or Tom McDonald as answers. Hore was a turnover merchant in his past MFC life, whilst a good interceptor, Tom McDonaldesque with ball in hand.

Agree about Tomlinson and McDonald. Shame if you are correct about Hore.

Also need to get more value out of Lever's disposal. His up and under kicking style screams for a quick release option to a Salem or similar

[Binmans PA 26,051]

4 hours ago, demoncat said:

Good analysis @Binmans PA - but I’m curious why you think we should trialling May and Lever as our two defensive talls

I thought that was when we looked our most vulnerable defensively last year and thought that having Tomlinson as the third tall settled our defence and allowed Lever to play his intercept game 

I guess the coaches need to weigh up including a NQR third tall for the sake of structure, or playing only two talls but having more quality and run from our backline

That’s why losing Disco for the first half of the season is a big blow - I was really hoping he’d come on and replace Tomlinson early in the season

I agree it didn't work last year and when we've looked our best 2021-2023, it's been with three defensive talls.

But the game has changed. We need to be ahead of the curve, and if we can't slow ball movement enough, we need to open up offence a little more.

We shouldn't throw the baby out, so we need to manufacture a defensive set up that enables Lever to intercept. Whether that's Max behind the ball or another mid sized player (think Howes), we need speed, composure and ball use behind the ball. Bowey and McVee certainly offer this. May is the best lockdown player in the comp, although maybe we need to be flexible week to week with that.

I agree losing Disco was a blow, but without him, I think it gives us an opportunity to test the two talls again. And potentially rest Max by sitting him behind the ball and getting JVR up the ground to ruck more. 

Edited February 25 by Binmans PA

[Binmans PA 26,051]

4 hours ago, Lil_red_fire_engine said:

We've tried this before. It doesn't work defensively and actually derails Levers ability to intercept and for us to springboard effectively. Its a shame Turner is out of action but otherwise we need to use one of TMac or Tomlinson as a deep no frills, big body lock down defender. May and Lever need to play their natural game and the springboard needs to come with more run and dare from Bowey, McVee, Rivers, Salem, Howes. 

May, Lever, Bowey, McVee, Rivers, Salem and Howes would be my 7 defenders, with Max floating back.

But adding Tomlinson or McDonald would be 8. We haven't done this before, so it would be a departure.

I'd basically have Howes (if he can do it) as a Murphy type (Howes is 1cm shorter). 

As a rule, we play 7 forwards, 7 defenders and 8 mids/wingers.

[58er 5,608]

4 hours ago, Binmans PA said:

Viney, Trac, Salem, Clarry, Rivers, Sparrow, Kozzy is a bloody good midfield. JJ is meat and potatoes and Harmes was fringe the last two years.

We have arguably the best midfield and defence in the comp. We need to improve forward of the ball, which may mean we need to give up a little bit of defensive stability to attack more from the back.

We've got a new brains trust in the midfield with 3 premierships of IP.

The lack of continuity across pre season hasn't been ideal, nor has the cultural and political noise, but we have the cattle if we get some luck with injury and some more dare with ball movement. 

As I've mentioned previously, I would be trying only two defensive talls in May and Lever, and prior to his retirement I would have played Gus as the intercepting mud sized player releasing Bowey, McVee, Rivers and possibly Howes. 

With no Gus now, I think our midfield will be fine, but our defensive set up will need some different ideas. I don't see Tomlinson or Tom McDonald as answers. Hore was a turnover merchant in his past MFC life, whilst a good interceptor, Tom McDonaldesque with ball in hand.

So midfield problems are being greatly exaggerated. It's defensively and offensively we have work to do.

Agree Binman it’s just our depth that if an injury to JV or Trac or Clarry puts great pressure on the other2. 

However last year we handled it quite ok ( with Angus help) do we need an array of others to vary our group plus not rob Peter to pay Paul. 

Hun in evaluating our defence did not even mention Riv. Glaring omission but with quality cameos not quantity we can also make it a strength .

Not sure I agree that 2,talls is the way  to go. History has proven 3 is required so Jake can play his proper role as interceptor. Disco could do that I believe. Tommo on most occasions has over time has been a good ally. Hore not so much. Adams might during the season present a compulsive reason to be elevated. I think it might be better to bring him in early rather than late if he shows the aptitude and concentration for the team defence he would join. Also Disco would be nearly ready for return halfway through the season. 

As ever it won’t be our onballers who are to blame but our connection plus ability to get our star forwards on the park and convert with reasonable accuracy. 
 

 

[Roost it far 6,043]

I would absolutely have Gawn play a kick behind and go 2 talls in defence against most opposition. You can bet to your last dollar that Goodwin will play Gawn forward where he keeps proving ineffective, does my head in to have Tomlinson in the team and Max grabbing the ruck ball and slogging it forward.

[Binmans PA 26,051]

3 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Not sure how you can name Salem, Rivers and Kozzie as 'bloody good midfield' options when there is still a lot of unknowns on whether they can step up when needed.

Sparrow I would say to some degree hasn't exactly taken the next step in proving he can become a quality midfielder in years to come.

He's a role player who needs to lift his numbers and input and not continue to live off averaging 16-17 disposals per game. Based of what I saw against Richmond I saw nothing in his game that suggest he's improved. Now I'm not using that as evidence to suggest that he won't improve this year but he absolutely needs to step up now with Brayshaw gone. He's got all the tight athletic tools but we barely see enough of it.

Rivers has only had minor spurts in there and taking him away from our backline does leave it vulnerable because he is just as good down back. He's the one out of the lot I see transitioning well into full time midfield role similar to what Elliot Yeo did when he started off as a defender in his early days.

Kozzie is very unknown still. Barely used there last year and doubt he has the tank to to play big minutes in there. Good for short bursts, but against the top sides like Collingwood who are elite at two way running then he'll need to step up in that area. Like Rivers, you're also taking his strengths away being an elite small forward because no one else in our teams comes even close to his level up forward.

There is zero evidence to suggest Salem can step into the midfield role and be successful. Goodwin has already trialled Salem as a starting mid in early 2018 and he was pretty ordinary so they had to move him back in his natural position down back

We've also trialled the two tall defenders thing and it simply does not work. One of the most bizarre coaching selections moves I saw was certainly not the not using Josh Schache sub but going into our first final against Collingwood with May and Lever as our only tall defenders. What was even more bizarre is that Goodwin admitted sometime last year that he prefers the 3 talls down back as it gives some like Lever to be released as the roaming 3rd tall.

That final against Collingwood we butchered up that team selection that badly that they had no other choice but to play Rivers on Dan McStay all night which completely took away his running game because he had to play a full lock down role.

Never again.

Mate, we have three starting mids in the top 20 players of the competition. Max, Clarry and Trac. Then we have Viney, who would walk up to any midfield in the league behind them.

And although I agree Sparrow needs to get involved more, he's a handy support player, while Kozzy has shown he adds more pace and x factor to our midfield. There's enough evidence on Kozzy that if he played 5-10 mins a quarter (with another pre season now under his belt), he'd be a solid option in there.

Salem and Rivers haven't had enough exposed form in there to know yet, but both have played the inside slider role to elite levels across the last few years, so IMV there's enough for Mini and Goody to work with.

[rjay 23,902]

3 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Not sure how you can name Salem, Rivers and Kozzie as 'bloody good midfield' options when there is still a lot of unknowns on whether they can step up when needed.

I think Salem is such a smart player...his quick hands and thinking around the contest if back to full fitness will be a positive.

Plus he is a strong tackler.

So, his  ball use and defensive pressure could be a real positive in the midfield.

[dazzledavey36 48,734]

13 minutes ago, Binmans PA said:

Mate, we have three starting mids in the top 20 players of the competition. Max, Clarry and Trac. Then we have Viney, who would walk up to any midfield in the league behind them.

And although I agree Sparrow needs to get involved more, he's a handy support player, while Kozzy has shown he adds more pace and x factor to our midfield. There's enough evidence on Kozzy that if he played 5-10 mins a quarter (with another pre season now under his belt), he'd be a solid option in there.

Salem and Rivers haven't had enough exposed form in there to know yet, but both have played the inside slider role to elite levels across the last few years, so IMV there's enough for Mini and Goody to work with.

If you're banking on another year of heavily realying on Max, Clarry and Petracca to carry you throughout the year again then you're on your way to being cooked lol.. (team, not you). 

Gawn is another year older with far less support then ever before, Clarry has missed a whole summer of training and right now is trying to bank in as many K's as he can before round 0. It will take him a few AFL games to get him back to being match conditioned etc. Any sport science guru will tell you this.

The difference between this year and now is that previously we've had genuine midfield depth like Harmes, Jordon and Brayshaw who could straight into the midfield and play big minutes in there as a cover. 

If a Petracca, Viney or Oliver goes down for a number of weeks with an injury then we're asking a lot from the likes of Pickett and Salem to play bigger minutes and I'm not sure they could sustain it for longer periods of the game.

6 minutes ago, rjay said:

I think Salem is such a smart player...his quick hands and thinking around the contest if back to full fitness will be a positive.

Plus he is a strong tackler.

So, his  ball use and defensive pressure could be a real positive in the midfield.

Hea certainly all of that. But he's also been trialled previously in the midfield in the past (2018) with little to no success. Hopefully because he's matured since and has gained more experience he'll be much better in that role, because right as we speak, we absolutely need him fit for the whole year.

[rjay 23,902]

22 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Hea certainly all of that. But he's also been trialled previously in the midfield in the past (2018) with little to no success. Hopefully because he's matured since and has gained more experience he'll be much better in that role, because right as we speak, we absolutely need him fit for the whole year.

We sure do 'dazz'...

[Lil_red_fire_engine 10,171]

1 hour ago, Binmans PA said:

May, Lever, Bowey, McVee, Rivers, Salem and Howes would be my 7 defenders, with Max floating back.

But adding Tomlinson or McDonald would be 8. We haven't done this before, so it would be a departure.

I'd basically have Howes (if he can do it) as a Murphy type (Howes is 1cm shorter). 

As a rule, we play 7 forwards, 7 defenders and 8 mids/wingers.

Round 0 we possiblly face Logan McDonald, Hayden McLean and Joe Amartey.
Round 1 likely Naughton, JUH and Darcy.

One of Tomlinson/TMac will play. 

[dazzledavey36 48,734]

13 minutes ago, Lil_red_fire_engine said:

Round 0 we possiblly face Logan McDonald, Hayden McLean and Joe Amartey.
Round 1 likely Naughton, JUH and Darcy.

One of Tomlinson/TMac will play. 

Yep.

Absolute no arguments whatsoever, you play your three defenders. Two teams that played off in the grand final last year had 3 tall defenders playing as did the previous year and so on.

The game isn't changing to the point where teams are going away from this, if anything the secondary ruckman that can rest up forward and hit the scoreboard is where the game is shifting towards and you'll find this year a lot of teams with for the 3 tall forwards set up.

 

[Gator 16,892]

2 hours ago, rjay said:

I think Salem is such a smart player...his quick hands and thinking around the contest if back to full fitness will be a positive.

Plus he is a strong tackler.

So, his  ball use and defensive pressure could be a real positive in the midfield.

I completely agree.

People may scoff at reserves form, but in periods 5-7 against Richmond Salem played as a pure mid and looked fantastic.  He was moving better/quicker than I'd seen him for years, used it well and looked like a point of difference to a midfield that has probably become a little predictable.

Yes, a tiny sample size, but I'd love to see him given a crack at a midfield spot.  Historically I've been in Dazzle's corner, in that I prefer him behind the ball, but he's far more mature now and I reckon can make a fist of it in the middle, especially after seeing him in the match sim.