Garry Lyon analysis

[demon3165 2,804]

57 minutes ago, NeveroddoreveN said:

When it comes to selecting players i think picking Harmes/AnB actually hurts us. i would be moving Bowey forward to play his role but in more of a point guard role in basketball.  A distributer  who creates which his sure ball handling and great skills. Sadly ANB busts a gut but fumbles from start to finish of games, wet or dry. He is never going to overly get better in this regard, he is a limited player we revolve our gameplan around. Harmes tries really hard but run around like a headless chicken with zero idea of structure.  When he plays i know we are in trouble.  Harmes out of the midfield and get Rivers in there who has clearly been our most improved this year. He deserves a shot and would create some much needed drive/grunt/desperation/ability. Then get Woey/Tomlinson/Turner/Howes in the backline to replace Bowey/Rivers. 

Pretty sure JVR should not have been dropped for BB.  i believe we are making so many selection blunders atm. Pesonally i have no faith that our coach can get it right. He seems like he is fumbling with a great list. He was a great player.  He is not a great coach. Stupid or stubborn or defensive minded either way it is killing us.

Not sure about rivers in the guts, but he is a way better prospect than harmes that's for sure, as for Goody I think he believes we could do what the triggers did play the same way over those years but they had better players in the main positions, change the game plan, one can only hope.

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

46 minutes ago, rjay said:

 

Thanks for reinforcing my point 'Jimmy'...

Bartel is not long out of the game & his analysis is pretty good.

All ex-football media personalities have highlighted the same issues when talking about us to varying degrees, with or without a fancy whiteboard. 

Good to know you will take what Bartel says seriously though. 

 

[rjay 25,088]

3 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

Good to know you will take what Bartel says seriously though. 

I've made similar points on here 'Jimmy'...

The thing with Bartel is he understands the nuance, unlike most of the personality experts.

[58er 6,562]

17 hours ago, dee-tox said:

That was the game! Pathetic execution.

Could have even been a handball !!! 

[The Jackson FIX 3,210]

12 hours ago, Nudge said:

it is FAR BETTER to have fixable issues than personnel or major gameplan issues both of which require an off-season and preseason to correct.

Broadly how I feel about the current state of play. If our game plan was consistently being exposed by opposition I’d be more worried, or we were playing a style of footy that couldn’t hold up in finals I’d be more worried. The issues are kinda superficial and you can see how they can disappear with a bit of luck and a bit of confidence.
 

Belief that can happen? Our run into finals last year and some chronic cases of MFCSS aren’t helping the belief

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,878]

On 7/4/2023 at 2:20 PM, Lucifers Hero said:

This has to be the most damning stat of all:

"According to Champion Data, Melbourne is overall the best contested possession team in the competition. Specifically, Simon Goodwin’s side is ranked first in the league for contested possessions won in both the defensive 50 and midfield.

But alarmingly, the Dees are ranked 16th for contested ball in their forward 50"

Even if the talls bring it to ground our ground level players can't win it.  So we are losing in the air and on the ground.

So much for having so many defensive forwards!!  

On a similar note, watch from 3:32 onwards:

 

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,878]

16 hours ago, Pipefitter said:

Tomlinson has done Pettys job pretty well. Not sure why we would continue to shaft him. It looked like it was finally clicking for Petty up forward when he got injured but when he comes back he goes back. It’s mind boggling. 

Agreed.  Add to that, that in his first week back against Geelong, I felt Petty had minimal impact and I think he would have actually benefited from a week at Casey to build some confidence.  Although he was better against GWS, personally, I don't think Petty is playing at his best 2021 / 2022 level, where his contested and intercept marking in defense was a real feature.

[beelzebub 23,383]

8 hours ago, rjay said:

 

Thanks for reinforcing my point 'Jimmy'...

Bartel is not long out of the game & his analysis is pretty good.

Hardly takes an Einstein of any football experience...recent or otherwise to understand we're making the game harder than need be by being in the wrong spot.

 

[beelzebub 23,383]

2 hours ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

On a similar note, watch from 3:32 onwards:

 

That's brilliant....  funnier even in her accent.

Gotta love them Stats !! 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Deemania since 56 6,717]

20 hours ago, Macca said:

If ever we should take risks with our kicks it's when those kicks enter the forward line

But we won't or don't take risks and prefer to bomb the ball in chaos style

But the opposition teams know what we're going to do and plan accordingly.  They flood back as early as possible so those long bombs end up directed to large packs

Very difficult to take marks in those circumstances and our front & centre smalls are often nowhere to be seen to further add to the issue

But none of the above is news.  Numerous people here as well as myself have been saying the same thing since early last year

So it's really an assistant coach/coaching issue as the players are obviously kicking the ball into the forward line under instruction

In simple terms we need to change our whole approach.  We will not be winning the flag with our current method

Lower the eyes, forwards to lead constantly and pass the ball into the forward line.  When that doesn't work defend well from that point and further back

It's not rocket science

Currently - as seen in the games we should have won - season over. No matter how much scrambling we can muster, that's it. The approach to games is cancerous - we cannot settle into patterns A, B and C, and there are no supports or initiatives to so do. The 'learnings' are so numerous and comprehensive over the entire Goodwin journey that these are now irrelevant; no footballer can keep up with the 'unspecified'. Change has to be entire, not partial. Agree wholeheartedly with your summation, Macca. 

[beelzebub 23,383]

9 minutes ago, Deemania since 56 said:

Currently - as seen in the games we should have won - season over. No matter how much scrambling we can muster, that's it. The approach to games is cancerous - we cannot settle into patterns A, B and C, and there are no supports or initiatives to so do. The 'learnings' are so numerous and comprehensive over the entire Goodwin journey that these are now irrelevant; no footballer can keep up with the 'unspecified'. Change has to be entire, not partial. Agree wholeheartedly with your summation, Macca. 

Spot on...

None so blind as those that WILL NOT  see .....

[Macca 17,033]

3 minutes ago, Deemania since 56 said:

Currently - as seen in the games we should have won - season over. No matter how much scrambling we can muster, that's it. The approach to games is cancerous - we cannot settle into patterns A, B and C, and there are no supports or initiatives to so do. The 'learnings' are so numerous and comprehensive over the entire Goodwin journey that these are now irrelevant; no footballer can keep up with the 'unspecified'. Change has to be entire, not partial. Agree wholeheartedly with your summation, Macca. 

I still have a strong hope for the rest of the season despite our shortcomings

We win the ball enough and our midfield & defence is strong and classy

But we fall down up forward both with delivery to the forward line (method) and also with regards to how our forwards go about it

The fix is not that hard

For instance, (despite the wet weather last Sunday) if we had attempted to pass the ball into the forward line with most of our 73 forward line entries, then we would have given ourselves numerous chances to take marks or win free kicks and therefore, have as a result any number of set shots at goal

Of course, those would-be passes might not have all ended up with positive outcomes but that's the chance you take

Anf it's imperative that our forwards play in front with the front & centre smalls playing their part

The above is coached and practised in the lower leagues at suburban level and is standard practice

What we are currently doing with regards to our forward entries is quite farcical and lazy.  Just doesn't make sense

[beelzebub 23,383]

5 minutes ago, Macca said:

I still have a strong hope for the rest of the season despite our shortcomings

We win the ball enough and our midfield & defence is strong and classy

But we fall down up forward both with delivery to the forward line (method) and also with regards to how our forwards go about it

The fix is not that hard

For instance, (despite the wet weather last Sunday) if we had attempted to pass the ball into the forward line with most of our 73 forward line entries, then we would have given ourselves numerous chances to take marks or win free kicks and therefore, have as a result any number of set shots at goal

Of course, those would-be passes might not have all ended up with positive outcomes but that's the chance you take

Anf it's imperative that our forwards play in front with the front & centre smalls playing their part

The above is coached and practised in the lower leagues at suburban level and is standard practice

What we are currently doing with regards to our forward entries is quite farcical and lazy.  Just doesn't make sense

Instead of EVERYONE  racing to goal... just needs someone to stop and turn around..  whoever has the ball only has to wait a tic and our man is open.

Yep...not a lot of sense out there.

[JV7 2,354]

The shift really came after the Fremantle game… We were scoring extremely well up until that point of the season but we’re getting opened up defensively. That day Fremantle moved the ball way to easy against us & exposed us defensively. 
 

I think we have reverted back to the slow & controlled ball movement since the Carlton game which is evident by scores against. No coincidence that our backline in particular May was all at sea now have started to strengthen . 
 

The slow build up & long kicking to the pockets is a clear plan to let us set up defensively behind the ball & not be easily transitioned on, if we have kicked straight the last 6 weeks would we be talking about this, I’m not sure the shift in game plan is the way to go but sides can’t score against us, we can fix the accuracy in front of goal & tweak the F50 entries, it’s just wether we can get the balance right with the season running out of time to correct it. 

Edited July 5, 2023 by JV7

[NeveroddoreveN 1,034]

5 minutes ago, JV7 said:

The shift really came after the Fremantle game… We were scoring extremely well up until that point of the season but we’re getting opened up defensively. That day Fremantle moved the ball way to easy against us & exposed us defensively. 
 

I think we have reverted back to the slow & controlled ball movement since the Carlton game which is evident by scores against. No coincidence that our backline in particular May was all at sea now have started to strengthen . 
 

The slow build up & long kicking to the pockets is a clear plan to let us set up defensively behind the ball & not be easily transitioned on, if we have kicked straight the last 6 weeks would we be talking about this, I’m not sure the shift in game plan is the way to go but sides can’t score against us, we can fix the accuracy in front of goal & tweak the F50 entries, it’s just wether we can get the balance right with the season running out of time to correct it. 

Have got no doubt we will be in most games with our current style, but we sure aint winning finals like this.. 

We keep doubling down on this style of game and the players just need to fluff a few moments, every game in the balance....We are actually way to good to play in this fashion. We are just keeping average teams within striking distance.

We get very few quality entries playing this current style and it seems to me the players are not having much fun, not many backslaps or smiles going on out there.

We don't have to go away from being a good contested team, but we do actually need to stop trying to set up for repeat forward stoppages if there is no quality to them.  Better to win the ball back through middle of the ground and actually hurt the opposition. Currently imo we are playing THE most negative game of all the AFL teams currently.  Our coach is ridiculously stubborn.  There is a complete lack of trust in our team  with our game plan. The players are implementing what Goody wants, apart from the inaccurate kicking. They would be losing faith that he has the actual gameplan that lets them play like a champion team. Everything is so restrictive atm, there is no freedom in the way we are playing the game.

It is like we don't actually enjoy the regular season grind, we should be embracing pressure with  a list this good, yet we seem terrified when the games are in the balance. The mindset of the coach needs to change, or we are just going to fluff a few moments to blow our season playing a style that keeps every team in it up to their eyeballs.

[rjay 25,088]

2 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Hardly takes an Einstein of any football experience...recent or otherwise to understand we're making the game harder than need be by being in the wrong spot.

 

...nuance 'bub'.

He didn't say that at all.

Edited July 6, 2023 by rjay

[Macca 17,033]

1 hour ago, beelzebub said:

Instead of EVERYONE  racing to goal... just needs someone to stop and turn around..  whoever has the ball only has to wait a tic and our man is open.

Yep...not a lot of sense out there.

From an overall perspective our forward entries have been inefficient since the beginning of last season ... mainly because most of the oppisition teams are flooding back more and at the same time pressuring our midfielders into kicking the ball into our forward line in a haphazard way

We got away with it for a while but we are now too easy to read

Proof is in the pudding where we have lost 14 of our last 29 games from the 10 & 0 start in 2022

Our best players are in defence & in the midfield so we need to lean on them to repel counter-attacks if we decide to pass the ball into the forward line (doing that can create intercept marks or turnovers from miskicks)  Forwards need to get on the move as well and leads need to be honoured

This is footy101, not some ground breaking new philosophy.  It's how suburban teams are coached

We work so hard in so many other areas and then just waste possession moving the ball into the front half.  Frustrating to watch

I feel that if we don't address this issue we'll be gifting the flag to another team (Pies, Lions or Port)

As stated previously, it's not a hard fix and there are times when a long kick to a 1 on 1 in the forward line is perfectly ok

But to consistently bomb it to a 6 on 6 is dumb football

By the way, I haven't read the Garry Lyon article as I don't need to.  The eyes say it all

Edited July 6, 2023 by Macca

[beelzebub 23,383]

30 minutes ago, rjay said:

...nuance 'bub'.

He didn't say that at all.

Seriously.....stop..

Thsts exactly the point hes making..

Earlier we're taking shots ..in his words.."between the posts "....  thats aka ..in the arc.. the place you want to be.. 45deg from either goal post.. no more than 40... thats gold mining Territory. 

He goes on to say we're now taking shots further out and at greater angle...  

If thats not being in the wrong spot i dont know what is rjay.

You're flogging a dead horse mate.

[beelzebub 23,383]

33 minutes ago, Macca said:

From an overall perspective our forward entries have been inefficient since the beginning of last season ... mainly because most of the oppisition teams are flooding back more and at the same time pressuring our midfielders into kicking the ball into our forward line in a haphazard way

We got away with it for a while but we are now too easy to read

Proof is in the pudding where we have lost 14 of our last 29 games from the 10 & 0 start in 2022

Our best players are in defence & in the midfield so we need to lean on them to repel counter-attacks if we decide to pass the ball into the forward line (doing that can create intercept marks or turnovers from miskicks)  Forwards need to get on the move as well and leads need to be honoured

This is footy101, not some ground breaking new philosophy.  It's how suburban teams are coached

We work so hard in so many other areas and then just waste possession moving the ball into the front half.  Frustrating to watch

I feel that if we don't address this issue we'll be gifting the flag to another team (Pies, Lions or Port)

As stated previously, it's not a hard fix and there are times when a long kick to a 1 on 1 in the forward line is perfectly ok

But to consistently bomb it to a 6 on 6 is dumb football

By the way, I haven't read the Garry Lyon article as I don't need to.  The eyes say it all

Id love to know if anyone actually thinks we're going about our forward footy in a good fashion, in a  meaningfully productive way ?? 

I.e... we're doing it right and doesn't need addressing....

[Macca 17,033]

3 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Id love to know if anyone actually thinks we're going about our forward footy in a good fashion, in a  meaningfully productive way ?? 

I.e... we're doing it right and doesn't need addressing....

We are doing a lot right but the forward line woes stand out like a sore thumb

We tweak it, we'll be fine

Trouble is (apart from Fritsch) all our best players play in the midfield or defence

Again, apart from Fritsch, we probably don't have a top 15 player in the forward line

However, our delivery into the forward line is atrocious so what chance have the forwards got?  Front & square smalls?  Where are they? If they were on the ball, they'd have a field day (do they prefer the cheapie out the back?)

It's definitely an assistant coach/coaching issue as the players look like they are playing to instruction

So it's no good blaming this player or that player, that's blaming the A-end of the problem

Don't be reading this thinking I want changes to the coaching either ... they need to do better

Edited July 6, 2023 by Macca

[beelzebub 23,383]

2 minutes ago, Macca said:

We are doing a lot right but the forward line woes stand out like a sore thumb

We tweak it, we'll be fine

Trouble is (apart from Fritsch) all our best players play in the midfield or defence

Again, apart from Fritsch, we probably don't have a top 15 player in the forward line

However, our delivery into the forward line is atrocious so what chance have the forwards got?  Front & square smalls?  Where are they? If they were on the ball, they'd have a field day (looking for the cheapie out the back?)

It's definitely an assistant coach/coaching issue as the players look like they are playing to instruction

So it's no good blaming this player or that player, that's blaming the A-end of the problem

Don't be reading this thinking I want changes to the coaching either ... they need to do better

I dont blame the players at all in this regard. I agree is absolutely a coaching/gameplan issue.

You could chop and change in/out whoever in the front half and it wont make one iota of difference if we keep playing that style.

It is THE dumbest front half footy going around.

 

[Roost it far 8,595]

13 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

Yeh but @rjaysays that these guys don't know what they're talking about so let's not listen.

Everything's fine everyone. 

We're loading and we're fine. 

Relax. 

Jeez. 

Take it easy big fella, we’ll roll the Saints, get Oliver back in a few weeks and win 10 straight including the Flag

[Stu 969]

14 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Id love to know if anyone actually thinks we're going about our forward footy in a good fashion, in a  meaningfully productive way ?? 

I.e... we're doing it right and doesn't need addressing....

I can’t speak for everyone, but I don’t think anyone would say our forward footy over the past 6 weeks has been good. The debate comes down to - how much is this a planned temporary change, how easily it can be rectified, and what it means for our season. 

 

 

[beelzebub 23,383]

6 minutes ago, Stu said:

I can’t speak for everyone, but I don’t think anyone would say our forward footy over the past 6 weeks has been good. The debate comes down to - how much is this a planned temporary change, how easily it can be rectified, and what it means for our season. 

 

 

Change ??..  its been our M.O for years

[rjay 25,088]

1 minute ago, Macca said:

We are doing a lot right but the forward line woes stand out like a sore thumb

We tweak it, we'll be fine

Trouble is (apart from Fritsch) all our best players play in the midfield or defence

Again, apart from Fritsch, we probably don't have a top 15 player in the forward line

However, our delivery into the forward line is atrocious so what chance have the forwards got?  Front & square smalls?  Where are they? If they were on the ball, they'd have a field day (looking for the cheapie out the back?)

It's definitely an assistant coach/coaching issue as the players look like they are playing to instruction

So it's no good blaming this player or that player, that's blaming the A-end of the problem

Don't be reading this thinking I want changes to the coaching either ... they need to do better

It seems they are playing to instruction 'Macca'...a lot are picking out the obvious or blaming player x or y, but it's deeper than that. Or they are looking at simplistic solutions. This is the problem I have with some of the analysis.

Earlier in the season we were attacking the front of the goal face more (I think we led the accuracy stat) but we were also leaking a lot of goals the other way.

The FD obviously decided we needed to tighten things up, hence we now attack more to the pockets and then look to lock the ball down in our forward half. This is the instruction and blind Freddie should be able to see that.

One of the big problems with our forward entries are the bounce backs...the time the ball is cleared by the opposition under pressure, turned over and we pump it back in. This inflates our forward entry figure and doesn't give a true indication of what's happening.

It's all well and good to get the turnover but a big problem is they still have a lot of numbers back. Their defence is set and our forward half is too congested to find clear space.

I think, well I think it's pretty obvious as you have said that we only have one decent forward (I might add Kozzie to the list but no matter we don't have a tall forward at all) and the FD also know this, they're not stupid...they must think in a shoot out we lose hence the current strategy.

Is there a balance? do we underrate our scoring ability? or do we just hope the wheel turns a bit and we hit a few shots?

There is no answer personnel wise in the short term so how do we structure a winning plan?