PREGAME: Rd 17 vs St. Kilda

[Rossmillan 585]

I am interested in the commentary around Gawn being out of form.

Are people concerned about his tap ruck work or his influence around the ground, or both?

Im not sure he’s cooked.  He is obviously on the wrong side of 30 now, so I’m expecting some slide in the coming years.

The poor bloke gets held, scragged and interfered with at every marking contest, if he was Cody weightman he would have had 1000 free kicks by now.

Conditions have been miserable for tall marking players in recent weeks. 

I feel that he played that dominate marking player much better when he is a kick behind the play.  When he is the target, everybody knows where the ball is being dumped and multiple bodies crash into him with little chance for a grab.

So is he out of form or is it a structural issue, where he’s not being played in his best role, coupled with the conditions that make it seem like he isn’t at his dominant best?
 

[layzie 32,789]

9 minutes ago, Rossmillan said:

I am interested in the commentary around Gawn being out of form.

Are people concerned about his tap ruck work or his influence around the ground, or both?

Im not sure he’s cooked.  He is obviously on the wrong side of 30 now, so I’m expecting some slide in the coming years.

The poor bloke gets held, scragged and interfered with at every marking contest, if he was Cody weightman he would have had 1000 free kicks by now.

Conditions have been miserable for tall marking players in recent weeks. 

I feel that he played that dominate marking player much better when he is a kick behind the play.  When he is the target, everybody knows where the ball is being dumped and multiple bodies crash into him with little chance for a grab.

So is he out of form or is it a structural issue, where he’s not being played in his best role, coupled with the conditions that make it seem like he isn’t at his dominant best?
 

I appreciate this post and agree with all of it. The question I have though is how many times can we say that Max is scragged and bashed around at marking contests, it's becoming rather trite and it feels like we've been saying this the whole season.

We either need to do something about it and make offenders accountable with a response or alter our gameplan. He's still one of our best and most important players and too good to be a decoy. 

Edited July 3, 2023 by layzie

[Billy 2,461]

39 minutes ago, Rossmillan said:

I am interested in the commentary around Gawn being out of form.

Are people concerned about his tap ruck work or his influence around the ground, or both?

Im not sure he’s cooked.  He is obviously on the wrong side of 30 now, so I’m expecting some slide in the coming years.

The poor bloke gets held, scragged and interfered with at every marking contest, if he was Cody weightman he would have had 1000 free kicks by now.

Conditions have been miserable for tall marking players in recent weeks. 

I feel that he played that dominate marking player much better when he is a kick behind the play.  When he is the target, everybody knows where the ball is being dumped and multiple bodies crash into him with little chance for a grab.

So is he out of form or is it a structural issue, where he’s not being played in his best role, coupled with the conditions that make it seem like he isn’t at his dominant best?
 

He needs to wake up, he’s not even close to any of his 6x All Australian years & is having no influence.

Jack Viney needs to wake him up

As for his on field leadership it’s been pretty much non existent other than a few flashes here & there.

We’re playing arrogant like the English cricket team with Goodwin continually praising our efforts & system 

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Billy

[Roost it far 7,384]

You can’t play Gawn, Grundy and Brown as forwards. How anyone thinks that’s going to work is beyond me. Like has been said Gawn’s best is as the ruck and playing a kick behind play. Bring JVR in and rest Gawn or Grundy. 

[Cranky Franky 1,816]

17 hours ago, drysdale demon said:

Childish comment

I can tell you that me & several long term supporters believe the same thing.

[chook fowler 19,248]

25 minutes ago, Billy said:

He needs to wake up, he’s not even close to any of his 6x All Australian years & is having no influence.

Jack Viney needs to wake him up

As for his on field leadership it’s been pretty much non existent other than a few flashes here & there.

We’re playing arrogant like the English cricket team with Goodwin continually praising our efforts & system 

 

we should get Bairstow to give the pregame address.

[Roost it far 7,384]

Whilst the ladder might say the season is tight the top 3 is streets ahead of the rest, Melbourne can make that the top 4 by showing us the preseason and early season form over the next month 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Roost it far

[Roost it far 7,384]

7 minutes ago, Cranky Franky said:

I can tell you that me & several long term supporters believe the same thing.

Really? You actually believe that a player would hold something over his coach to get a game. Goodwins indiscretions are largely public information anyway 

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,644]

The Age is reporting today that Oliver is likely to play this weekend. If that's correct, I see him as a straight swap for Harmes. I posted earlier that I would also pick van Rooyen to play Smith's role and then try Smith in Fritch's role. I'm now wondering whether Harmes should play the Fritsch role. I accept that Harmes is an unreliable kick, but he's a good mark for his size and can provide the mobility we are lacking in the forward 50.

So, assuming Oliver is good to go, I'll change my suggestion to:

In: Oliver, van Rooyen

Out: Fritsch (inj), Smith  

[drysdale demon 4,687]

29 minutes ago, Cranky Franky said:

I can tell you that me & several long term supporters believe the same thing.

WOW, school holidays are here again.

[drysdale demon 4,687]

23 minutes ago, Roost it far said:

Really? You actually believe that a player would hold something over his coach to get a game. Goodwins indiscretions are largely public information anyway 

These type of posts have been occuring for a few years in relation to a number of players and my thoughts are that how  supposedly adults can think and believe this type of drivel. 

[Nicko 1,377]

1 hour ago, Rossmillan said:

I feel that he played that dominate marking player much better when he is a kick behind the play.

Agree with this 👆

[Diamond_Jim 12,353]

22 hours ago, Demon Dynasty said:

Grundy as sub (at best).... should've happened weeks ago.

Needs another thread but you have to ask if we should trade Grundy in the off season. Given the Collingwood supplement we could probably break even on trade value. This would allow us to buy in a cheap back up ruck and put the Grundy savings into another recruit.(perhaps a KPF)

We just have too much invested in our ruck combo given their return. No real signs of it turning around.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,644]

41 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Needs another thread but you have to ask if we should trade Grundy in the off season. Given the Collingwood supplement we could probably break even on trade value. This would allow us to buy in a cheap back up ruck and put the Grundy savings into another recruit.(perhaps a KPF)

We just have too much invested in our ruck combo given their return. No real signs of it turning around.

Keep in mind that Gawn will be 32 at the end of the year. What we may be seeing this year is the inevitable decline because of age of one of the greatest ruckmen the game has seen. If Gawn's career comes to the end sooner than any of us may want, Grundy becomes a critical player for us given that we have no viable third ruck option just yet.

In fact, I have always believed Grundy was recruited to enable us to continue to be contenders while we still have Oliver, Petracca, Lever, etc once Gawn retires.  

[The end is nigh 343]

Smith to play frittas role and JVR in. Hopefully smith can decoy well enough and pressure because I don’t trust him to sink frittas boundary shots. Still pressures and contests. Give him a fly at a dry ball on a third tall (not sure who this is for saints now) 
clarry in for harmes. 
off broadway selection for mine is Andy moniz Wakefield. Woewodin did kick 3 as well for Casey but amw is a forward and that’s the spot that needs filling. I’d suggest a swap for anb just so goody doesn’t pick it up on the team sheet. 
if clarry can’t get up, Jordan to play full minutes as an inside mid. Offers more than harmes. 

[Little Goffy 13,981]

I don't rate Smith's brain enough to picture him in the very demanding role Fritsch plays. I would say his best option is as a defensive forward tightly staying with the Tom Stewart / Lever / Aliir / Andrews types to prevent them from intercepting and rebounding too easily. With his athleticism he can create the occasional opportunity to turn the tables completely, but left to be a 'normal' tall forward he become the player that opponents can predict and know when to zone off from, and that's no help to us.

Also, Gawn is actually having a respectable year, just not All-Australian level. I agree that he has had some games of very uncertain marking efforts and he also isn't being used as effectively as he should be to get to important positions. I have my theory for how they would work best (Gawn mostly a kick behind play or receiving the escape kick from defence, Grundy playing as a half-forward link option, each sticking to a loose area of control to minimise the low-value running, and each only occasionally slipping forward to mix things up for a while) but I'm not tearing my hair out about it just yet because Gawn and Grundy are both smart players and will not be sitting passively on the obvious problem.

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,283]

2 hours ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

The Age is reporting today that Oliver is likely to play this weekend. If that's correct, I see him as a straight swap for Harmes. I posted earlier that I would also pick van Rooyen to play Smith's role and then try Smith in Fritch's role. I'm now wondering whether Harmes should play the Fritsch role. I accept that Harmes is an unreliable kick, but he's a good mark for his size and can provide the mobility we are lacking in the forward 50.

So, assuming Oliver is good to go, I'll change my suggestion to:

In: Oliver, van Rooyen

Out: Fritsch (inj), Smith  

Woewodin has to come in for Harmes.

Agree with JVR in and Smith to stay in as well in the Fritsch role.

[Diamond_Jim 12,353]

51 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Keep in mind that Gawn will be 32 at the end of the year. What we may be seeing this year is the inevitable decline because of age of one of the greatest ruckmen the game has seen. If Gawn's career comes to the end sooner than any of us may want, Grundy becomes a critical player for us given that we have no viable third ruck option just yet.

I agree but can we afford a $700k insurance policy. The fact is that Gawn goes when he wants to as the club owes him so much otherwise ............

thanks for the face palm Drysdale Demon but why do you think the Grundy/Gawn combo will be any better next year?

The football world wondered how the combo would work as did many on this site. Other commentators said we had too much of our salary cap invested in the ruck dept. These are the kind of discussions we need to have.

[fr_ap 2,430]

55 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Keep in mind that Gawn will be 32 at the end of the year. What we may be seeing this year is the inevitable decline because of age of one of the greatest ruckmen the game has seen. If Gawn's career comes to the end sooner than any of us may want, Grundy becomes a critical player for us given that we have no viable third ruck option just yet.

In fact, I have always believed Grundy was recruited to enable us to continue to be contenders while we still have Oliver, Petracca, Lever, etc once Gawn retires.  

This might be unpopular, but I actually didn't mind how we looked with Grundy as solo ruck. 

We missed Gawn's marking around the ground (which could be offset if we had any decent tall forwards...), but I didnt feel an overt loss through the middle or at stoppages. Grundy was very poor defensively though in the early part of the year and he was a big reason for our Essendon loss when both Draper and Phillips (!) had career days...

Nevertheless, the Grundy play overall makes much more sense to me in the solo ruck context.

I'm not convinced that playing them both is doing us any favours at the moment.  

[Roost it far 7,384]

We have 2 first rucks who both have their best spot as first ruck. I’d play them off the bench more and sub one out regularly if I was to play both

[Adam The God 29,331]

Trac should play the Fritta role. Smith plays as a dummy/decoy forward almost and certainly plays a defensive role at times too. Fritta is the guy they're really going through.

I'd be trying to go through Trac and he's hopefully involving BB and JVR with his elite assist game.

[Roost it far 7,384]

I thought Petty was our defensive forward?

[Adam The God 29,331]

4 minutes ago, Roost it far said:

I thought Petty was our defensive forward?

Not for a while. Smith played (at times) on Moore and Stewart (Henry was the guy that killed us, not Stewart).

I'm with some who believe Smith doesn't have the nous to play regularly on clever interceptors, because he gets lost in the system.

If he stays in, I hope he is hyperfocused on the best interceptor in the air and runs off them to provide pressure or win ground ball when the ball hits the ground.

[bobby1554 1,230]

4 hours ago, NeveroddoreveN said:

Scaring them or us lol?  If he could hit the side of a barn regularly it may work, but he just can't he is so technically flawed,

Ok, let me put it this way. Which opposition defender would win a one on one against CP5 (given that is was a contest for a ground ball). Would said defender give up the contest in the hope that Trac sprays to shot on goal?

[bobby1554 1,230]

26 minutes ago, A F said:

Trac should play the Fritta role. Smith plays as a dummy/decoy forward almost and certainly plays a defensive role at times too. Fritta is the guy they're really going through.

I'd be trying to go through Trac and he's hopefully involving BB and JVR with his elite assist game.

Agree. Lyon would have no match up for him