'Dump kicks into the 50'

[Demonsone 2,006]

Either we have dumb players or our coach’s  strategy is dumb.We continue to win the ball then blow it with dumb entries.., will this group be the biggest waste of talent to not win any more flags?

Edited June 26, 2023 by Demonsone

[Rednblueriseing 812]

5 hours ago, george_on_the_outer said:

The way teams enter the forward line has changed, particularly this year.  And no doubt it is all about statistical outcomes.

We were training for "dump kicks" back in pre-season, and most of the teams at the top of the ladder now play the same way.

The chances of a "contested mark" in the forward line with zone defences is next to zero.  Clubs are depending on a deep kick into the forward line to create ground spillage and a 50:50 chance of getting the ball.  Even better with good crumbing forwards like Pickett, Papley etc. 

Clubs will have done the numbers in terms of goal output.  The argument that we should "lower the eyes" is also now irrelevant because of zone defences.  It rarely happens to have a forward with space to lead into, and if they do it is almost always deep in a pocket = poor goal conversion.

For fans it isn't as spectacular as the big forward taking marks, it's just how the game is played in 2023.

I understand what your saying but we are way to predictable with ball in hand all over the ground, abit more dare and dash and we will find free options forward. We move the ball at snails pace.

[Soidee 1,496]

Goodwin refuses to properly address this forward line bombing on tops of heads.  It will cost us a top 4 spot. 

[samcantstandya 1,031]

3 hours ago, Smokey said:

we've kicked the 5th most goals in the comp this year, calm down 

Our last 3 games 8 goals plus lots of points

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

7 hours ago, george_on_the_outer said:

The way teams enter the forward line has changed, particularly this year.  And no doubt it is all about statistical outcomes.

We were training for "dump kicks" back in pre-season, and most of the teams at the top of the ladder now play the same way.

The chances of a "contested mark" in the forward line with zone defences is next to zero.  Clubs are depending on a deep kick into the forward line to create ground spillage and a 50:50 chance of getting the ball.  Even better with good crumbing forwards like Pickett, Papley etc. 

Clubs will have done the numbers in terms of goal output.  The argument that we should "lower the eyes" is also now irrelevant because of zone defences.  It rarely happens to have a forward with space to lead into, and if they do it is almost always deep in a pocket = poor goal conversion.

For fans it isn't as spectacular as the big forward taking marks, it's just how the game is played in 2023.

Don't mean to offend but what a load of tosh. 

Lowering the eyes is irrelevant? 

It rarely happens to have a forward with space to lead into? 

I think you need to watch some non-melbourne games... 

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by JimmyGadson

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

There are some major misunderstandings of the whole 'dump kick' talk. 

I don't think anybody questions the value of dump kicking when under extreme pressure and congestion and especially so in the wet weather? Do they? 

What supporters rightfully question is the sheer amount of dump kicking we see throughout many scenarios. 

If @george_on_the_outer is telling us that coaches now tell players (like Pendles) to forget to take that extra step and allow yourself time and space to hit a leading target going inside 50.. All for the new cause of dumping it in because 'statitistics'.. Then I'm following the wrong sport and have no idea what I'm talking about. 

Somehow I have sneaking suspicion this isn't true. 

And most top 8 clubs put an absolute premium on ball use going inside 50 when under little pressure and with time and space. 

[beelzebub 23,242]

4 hours ago, Smokey said:

we've kicked the 5th most goals in the comp this year, calm down 

Our last 3 games......havent cracked it for more than 8 goals..  Not trending so well

[Demonsone 2,006]

Has Goody been asked the Petty decision to play him as a defender when he was playing fwd before his injury???

[IRW 1,383]

4 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

Don't mean to offend but what a load of tosh. 

Lowering the eyes is irrelevant? 

It rarely happens to have a forward with space to lead into? 

I think you need to watch some non-melbourne games... 

 

Pickett isn't a good crumbing forward..he goes for the dump mark( or should that be the dumb mark?)

Forget dump kicks under pressure  name one Demon who( still) has a laser flat pin point kick in his repertoire. 

#bringbackstabkix

[beelzebub 23,242]

5 minutes ago, IRW said:

Pickett isn't a good crumbing forward..he goes for the dump mark( or should that be the dumb mark?)

Forget dump kicks under pressure  name one Demon who( still) has a laser flat pin point kick in his repertoire. 

#bringbackstabkix

In some 3rd person ,parallel universal perspective.... Kozzie IS a very goid crumber.  He has bizarre and tra capabilities to read and cajole the ball.  These things are all 2nd nature to him. 

So why is he underperforming ( by his own created standards )  ???

It'd a question not only worthy of answering...but necessary to fix....otherwise a squandered talent.

Has he been.. "melbourned" ...   i hope not.

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,220]

13 hours ago, george_on_the_outer said:

The way teams enter the forward line has changed, particularly this year.  And no doubt it is all about statistical outcomes.

We were training for "dump kicks" back in pre-season, and most of the teams at the top of the ladder now play the same way.

The chances of a "contested mark" in the forward line with zone defences is next to zero.  Clubs are depending on a deep kick into the forward line to create ground spillage and a 50:50 chance of getting the ball.  Even better with good crumbing forwards like Pickett, Papley etc. 

Clubs will have done the numbers in terms of goal output.  The argument that we should "lower the eyes" is also now irrelevant because of zone defences.  It rarely happens to have a forward with space to lead into, and if they do it is almost always deep in a pocket = poor goal conversion.

For fans it isn't as spectacular as the big forward taking marks, it's just how the game is played in 2023.

Collingwood and Port? I must be wars differently game.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Bombay Airconditioning

[Smokey 4,381]

19 hours ago, samcantstandya said:

Our last 3 games 8 goals plus lots of points

A slump in form doesn't necessarily warrant a change tactics/coaching strategy, which was my initial point.  

[monoccular 17,345]

5 hours ago, Demon Dynasty said:

.

Not sure if I agree with this or not 🤔

On 6/26/2023 at 8:35 AM, george_on_the_outer said:

The way teams enter the forward line has changed, particularly this year.  And no doubt it is all about statistical outcomes.

We were training for "dump kicks" back in pre-season, and most of the teams at the top of the ladder now play the same way.

The chances of a "contested mark" in the forward line with zone defences is next to zero.  Clubs are depending on a deep kick into the forward line to create ground spillage and a 50:50 chance of getting the ball.  Even better with good crumbing forwards like Pickett, Papley etc. 

Clubs will have done the numbers in terms of goal output.  The argument that we should "lower the eyes" is also now irrelevant because of zone defences.  It rarely happens to have a forward with space to lead into, and if they do it is almost always deep in a pocket = poor goal conversion.

For fans it isn't as spectacular as the big forward taking marks, it's just how the game is played in 2023.

Problem since round 1 anyway, is the crumbing forwards Chandler and Pickett haven't been doing the crumbing job very well.  Instructions?  Opposition piking them up?  In Kozzie's case, trying for the specie instead?

On 6/26/2023 at 11:11 AM, DeeSpencer said:

Just about the only way to avoid long high kicks inside 50 is to move the ball quickly from the back half forward or across to the fat side.

To do that requires switching, run and carry or kicking up the corridor. Short kicks along the thin side flanks take more than the 15 or so seconds it takes an oppositions midfield and half forwards to transition to clogging space across half back.

Salem helps, but he mostly mops up and uses it safely. Riv has been trying with various levels of success. May’s largely lost the ability to break through tackles and take the game on. Hibbo’s the same. McVee is great at getting out of trouble but otherwise has a limited attacking game. Lever is a mess. Petty barely tries to attack. Tomlinson looks like Bruce Doull in the VFL but given he only runs in straight lines he doesn’t find the same space at afl level.

Eddie Langdon is/was a master of the wide but fast run, but he’s struggling to get runners to feed him and isn't picking  out targets. Hunter, refuses to pull the trigger on anything that involves more risk than him behind the wheel of a car. 

Viney, Sparrow and Gus can get the ball moving but you don’t want them taking risky kicks too often. So it’s Tracc or bust without Clarry’s corridor charge.

The half forwards have stopped leading because the ball never comes so you get a pack 60 out from goal, followed by a scrimmage then often a dump to the pack 15 out.

Now, there’s still plenty of situations where the ball moves well to half forward and things break down, we are good at those too. 

And I’d argue some of those are by design looking for deep inside 50’s because a mark inside 30 on a good angle is probably worth 4+ expected score, a mark 45 out on a 45 degree angle is probably worth 2.5 at most.

But there’s a coaching issue of forwards blocking for each other, timing leads and the half forwards playing on or dishing well timed handballs to mids on the roll by for the hit up kick.

JVR takes a strong grab 60 out, flips handball to PLAYERX then hits up PLAYERY.

The only answers that I can picture are Spargo to Fritsch. Which is hard if Spargo is in the 2’s. And I can’t see JVR giving the handball to begin with!

DeeSpencer - if all you say is true then we will be contesting WCE for the 🥄

On 6/26/2023 at 12:22 PM, biggestred said:

Sure. But weve been having forward line issues for years. No one ever leads at the footy. The personell changes but the method doesnt. Change is needed imvho

I have been concerned for decades that our forwards do not split and spread, obviously one of which is a "dummy lead" with no chance of getting the ball, but by drawing a defender with them it would have the effect of depopulating the defence.  Is this a reasonable option, at least some of the time?

[DemonBlack 12]

They're good suggestions monoccular.. 

Because our forward entries are so predictable with the dump kick 15m out on someones head, opposition really focus on blocking/ suffocating our small forwards so our 'plan A' of 'bring the ball to ground' is not effective one bit.

A bit of variety with our forward entries instead of predictability might help our forwards deal with defenders tactics, keep them guessing by alternating between 1v1 contests with a bit of space for forwards to lead or fast ball movement and get it in quick.

We also shouldn't be aiming for every player on the ground to be in our f50 at once, goody might call that forward half footy but that is also called flooding which is used to stop opposition scoring.

[Fork 'em 6,974]

 

On 6/26/2023 at 8:17 PM, IRW said:

Pickett isn't a good crumbing forward..he goes for the dump mark( or should that be the dumb mark?)

Forget dump kicks under pressure  name one Demon who( still) has a laser flat pin point kick in his repertoire. 

#bringbackstabkix

Picket flying for marks wouldn't be so bad if he held one now and then.
He could've Mark of the Year half a dozen times but dropped 'em.
And I think McVee has a "laser flat pin point kick in his repertoire."
But that's about all.
 

[58er 6,080]

2 hours ago, Fork 'em said:

 

Picket flying for marks wouldn't be so bad if he held one now and then.
He could've Mark of the Year half a dozen times but dropped 'em.
And I think McVee has a "laser flat pin point kick in his repertoire."
But that's about all.
 

Pickett has not dropped six potential MOY.  He has not got near most of his flying attempts either too far back or blatantly unrealistic jumps that are spectacularly nowhere near marking.

He needs to be  coached a little more and set to team standards to become effective again. Where is he when we want a match winner in the last quarter ( Could ask  that of many really) like  last week and vsFreo. Inaccurate kicking spoils many fruitless Melb forays forward and spoils some good play to some extent. 

 

 

 

 

[58er 6,080]

I really think it's time that Melbourne coaches reassessed the value of our ball winners ( all players) and stop lauding the more talented gatherers who waste their efforts with patchy or very poor disposal. 

Time to value players who get 12/15 genuine disposals and achieve rexults as score/goal assists or passes to other players in a chain. Our game values are based on our mids as bulls which while it's our standard start of our game we need to become far more concerned about what we do with the ball. 

It's the same with our goalkicking bring wasted and demoralising by shabby attempts at icing ouff etc good play. Also lead down the ground not into pockets for maximum effect. 

Until the coaches are prioritising this in our play the waste of talent in this team will be its next biggest feature after our 2021 Flag. 

 And if I I hear Goody poo poo that our accuracy is not one of our biggest challenges thats probably why he has made no move to solve the problem of Greg Stafford still having the forward post as Coach.  ( with Chocco sometimes lending a hand. ) 

 

[Dee Viney Intervention 1,833]

[Fork 'em 6,974]

9 hours ago, 58er said:

Pickett has not dropped six potential MOY.   

 

 

 

 

5 then.
Got his hands on them all.
And yes he's had some unrealistic attempts as well.