POSTGAME: Rd 11 vs Walyalup

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

1 hour ago, A F said:

Potentially, although from a psychological perspective, the club may feel it's important to get one up on them at this stage of the year. @Engorged Onion, you probably don't agree with this? However, that may well be the club's thinking. And to perform on the big stage.

I'd be arguing that after a few close losses, they would prefer to take a scalp to reinforce that they still can.

Unless there is an acknowledgement that perhaps they are a bit fatigued this week and are in a loading phase*, thus they internally acknowledge that it has a direct impact to run out games.

*🐈 amongst the 🐦 comment...

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

3 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

I'd be arguing that after a few close losses, they would prefer to take a scalp to reinforce that they still can.

Unless there is an acknowledgement that perhaps they are a bit fatigued this week and are in a loading phase*, thus they internally acknowledge that it has a direct impact to run out games.

*🐈 amongst the 🐦 comment...

 On reflection of that post, I think I am projecting all my anxieties onto the players...

[beelzebub 23,364]

1 hour ago, Engorged Onion said:

 On reflection of that post, I think I am projecting all my anxieties onto the players...

You possibly raise an interesting idea.

Is it the mood or general take on where the 'typical' Dee supporter finds themselves currently is not quietly ( or otherwise) optimistic but notably anxious.

I know that sums up my situation. 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,214]

4 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Collingwood have a far better list than us. Much better backline, deeper and more balanced midfield, much more even forward line.

 

I disagree with your assessment.

[Roost it far 8,265]

11 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I disagree with your assessment.

Me as well.

Collingwood's bottom 10 are ordinary footballers being coached well and full of confidence. We need them to suffer some injuries.

[Sydee 4,421]

2 minutes ago, Roost it far said:

Me as well.

Collingwood's bottom 10 are ordinary footballers being coached well and full of confidence. We need them to suffer some injuries.

Yep, let's hope Darcy Moore, Nick Daicos, DeGoey, Jack Crisp, and Brodie Mihocek are all feeling very ill Kings Birthday 😀

[Roost it far 8,265]

1 minute ago, Sydee said:

Yep, let's hope Darcy Moore, Nick Daicos, DeGoey, Jack Crisp, and Brodie Mihocek are all feeling very ill Kings Birthday 😀

Nope, want them all playing so we can study what we need to improve.

[DeeSpencer 25,687]

3 minutes ago, Roost it far said:

Me as well.

Collingwood's bottom 10 are ordinary footballers being coached well and full of confidence. We need them to suffer some injuries.

Who? None of their backs are, that’s for sure, they play 7 very solid players who all complement Moore, a little undersized with Markov in for Howe but he’s not terrible.

I don’t think their mids are. We’d love Josh Daicos on a wing or even WHE so we had a 3rd wing/forward.

Their forward line aren’t big names but Cox is a forward/ruck when we have 2 rucks.

Mihocek and Ash Johnson (in place of McStay) are better than our talls.

Elliot >>>> Fritsch because he defends.

3 smalls - Bobby Hill, McCreery and sometimes Ginnivan all are better than Spargo and Chandler. Taylor Adams plays the ANB defensive forward role.

They’ve got more run, more mid/forward and backline versatility (Crisp and Daicos can swap) and better more functional talls. 

The only advantages we have on them is 2 rucks - which we can’t leverage, and 2 superstar on ballers - which we struggle to leverage. If Petty plays back we have a height advantage with 3 tall backs but we need run from the backline and a CHF so that’s no advantage either.

Don’t make the mistake Langdon did thinking the Pies are some coaching/game plan miracle. It’s not true, they’re a very talented and well balanced team that play to their strengths. 

[Deemania since 56 6,635]

2 hours ago, A F said:

I think we may have to tweak our approach to stoppage clearances.

I believe in our quest to score (both on slingshot from D50 and inside our A50), we leave too much space around the contest for teams to chain out of when we lose clearance. Of course, it works the other way around too, but I think our ability to defend D50 is more important than slingshot.

If I'm right, maybe it's a case of clogging up D50 at stoppages and sacrificing an easier slingshot/handball chain out of our D50, but keep the space in the A50 at stoppages, and back our defensive system to stop teams scoring when they chain out of our A50.

Highly reasonable. D50 has too much escape room for attackers. A50 is clogged - leaving nowhere to lead before or behind the ball (someone moving to a better position, fast as hell) including creative deep fwd flanking whence creativity is now stifling and always clogged.

[Watson11 2,240]

Lists get overrated when teams play well and underrated when they don’t.

If you look at what the entirety of media analysts thought of our list and Collingwood’s 12 weeks ago, then 46 of them tipped us as premiers and 0 tipped Collingwood (26 went Brisbane, 23 went Geelong, 3 went Sydney). I’d say our list is good enough. 

 

[Deemania since 56 6,635]

22 hours ago, Watson11 said:

i missed the game and after reading this thread you would have thought we were playing witches hats and have no talent at all.  I watched it today and Freo really need some credit as they played a finals brand and we almost never had any space.  Yes a lot of skill errors on both sides, but mostly under huge pressure.  I don’t know what the pressure ratings were for the entire game but half way through the last we were at 237 and Freo about 215.  Both are off the charts (AFL average is 180).

No teams deal with pressure well.  Either one team drops the ball and gets run over, or the games turn into a scrap (like this game). Replay that game 10x and I think we win it 8x and if either, we or Freo bring that pressure into every game from now on then both will be top 4 at seasons end.

We need another Liam Jurrah. Our forwards were always under pressure; he came in from nowhere, anywhere, even backing up to the melee and doubled the pressure in an instant by doing what is unexpected. His grip and extraordinary reach helped, but moreso, enabled him to achieve his flashy, brilliant and innovative ideas. 

[Adam The God 30,239]

38 minutes ago, Deemania since 56 said:

We need another Liam Jurrah. Our forwards were always under pressure; he came in from nowhere, anywhere, even backing up to the melee and doubled the pressure in an instant by doing what is unexpected. His grip and extraordinary reach helped, but moreso, enabled him to achieve his flashy, brilliant and innovative ideas. 

LJ wouldn't get a game in the modern game. He had absolutely no defensive game. Loved him, was incredible offensively, but would be a liability when the opposition had the ball.

I agree though that we need more x factor forward of the ball.

I'd be looking for an x factor small (Watson?) in the draft and getting in Bailey Humphies ear.

When Richmond changed the game in 2017, they did it with Riewoldt bringing the ball to the ground and contesting, and a fleet of smalls with x factor at ground level.

Problem is they need to have a good aerobic base too, which takes time to build.

But I'd trust our mids to get it in there enough to give that sort of set-up some looks.

Right now we have too many guys that aren't quick enough, nor mercurial enough in the forward half. Kozzy and Fritsch the exceptions to the mercurial.

Edited May 29, 2023 by A F

[Roost it far 8,265]

1 hour ago, DeeSpencer said:

Who? None of their backs are, that’s for sure, they play 7 very solid players who all complement Moore, a little undersized with Markov in for Howe but he’s not terrible.

I don’t think their mids are. We’d love Josh Daicos on a wing or even WHE so we had a 3rd wing/forward.

Their forward line aren’t big names but Cox is a forward/ruck when we have 2 rucks.

Mihocek and Ash Johnson (in place of McStay) are better than our talls.

Elliot >>>> Fritsch because he defends.

3 smalls - Bobby Hill, McCreery and sometimes Ginnivan all are better than Spargo and Chandler. Taylor Adams plays the ANB defensive forward role.

They’ve got more run, more mid/forward and backline versatility (Crisp and Daicos can swap) and better more functional talls. 

The only advantages we have on them is 2 rucks - which we can’t leverage, and 2 superstar on ballers - which we struggle to leverage. If Petty plays back we have a height advantage with 3 tall backs but we need run from the backline and a CHF so that’s no advantage either.

Don’t make the mistake Langdon did thinking the Pies are some coaching/game plan miracle. It’s not true, they’re a very talented and well balanced team that play to their strengths. 

McCreey, Noble, Cox, Markov, Mihochek, Hoskin-Elliot, Qyuanor, Frampton, Ginnivan, McStay, Hill

all playing with confidence but B graders

 

[beelzebub 23,364]

50 minutes ago, A F said:

LJ wouldn't get a game in the modern game. He had absolutely no defensive game. Loved him, was incredible offensively, but would be a liability when the opposition had the ball.

I agree though that we need more x factor forward of the ball.

I'd be looking for an x factor small (Watson?) in the draft and getting in Bailey Humphies ear.

When Richmond changed the game in 2017, they did it with Riewoldt bringing the ball to the ground and contesting, and a fleet of smalls with x factor at ground level.

Problem is they need to have a good aerobic base too, which takes time to build.

But I'd trust our mids to get it in there enough to give that sort of set-up some looks.

Right now we have too many guys that aren't quick enough, nor mercurial enough in the forward half. Kozzy and Fritsch the exceptions to the mercurial.

Jurrah diidnt need a defensive game..  He was/is still the most mercurial forward i have ever had the pleasure to witness...of any team... any year.

The guy was football magic.

[DeeSpencer 25,687]

1 minute ago, Roost it far said:

McCreey, Noble, Cox, Markov, Mihochek, Hoskin-Elliot, Qyuanor, Frampton, Ginnivan, McStay, Hill

all playing with confidence but B graders

 

They all are B or even C graders, but there’s pace and/or a physical robustness about those players that has them equal if not better than the Melbourne counterparts. 

[beelzebub 23,364]

8 minutes ago, Roost it far said:

McCreey, Noble, Cox, Markov, Mihochek, Hoskin-Elliot, Qyuanor, Frampton, Ginnivan, McStay, Hill

all playing with confidence but B graders

 

That will bite you on the [censored] bigtime.

B+ at least ..  all can kill you in not respected. 

[Roost it far 8,265]

2 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

They all are B or even C graders, but there’s pace and/or a physical robustness about those players that has them equal if not better than the Melbourne counterparts. 

Better atm because of confidence. Imagine if Schache had been given the licence that Frampton has been given. 
Fritsch is better than all their forwards Chandler no worse than Ginnivan     Pickett better than Adams and Hill   Grundy over Cox                               ANB and Noble 

I could go on but our list has holes but all lists do, our problem is we’re not quite getting it done. We’ve been worked out and the tweaks aren’t adding to our confidence. We’ve got a few more weeks to get our game together because after the bye we need to get up and about. Collingwood’s list don’t scare me but they’re game does.

 

[Roost it far 8,265]

1 minute ago, beelzebub said:

That will bite you on the [censored] bigtime.

B+ at least ..  all can kill you in not respected. 

That’s not my point, of course they can bite me but so can Melbournes list bite them. 
they’re not B+, Fritsch is B+, Pickett is B+

[Pennant St Dee 13,173]

7 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I disagree and I think this comment is being thrown around as a copout (not just by you but I've picked on your post).

The list is primed for multiple cracks at a flag and if we only get 1 out of this group it will be a massive underachievement (just like the 2000 Bombers, the 95 Blues etc)

Just having a midfield of Gawn, Grundy, Petracca, Oliver, Viney let alone a defense led by May, Lever and Salem with Fritsch and Pickett up forward is enough to say that the list is up there with the best in the AFL. Who currently has a better list? I would say ours is better than the Pies for example but they are wringing far more out of their talent.

Let me put it this way

2021 - Premiers

2022 - finished 2nd banged up (much to do with poor injury management) and bowed out but certainly put ourselves in contention 

2023 - season a long way to go

Grundy - not her before this season 

Salem barely fit since 2021

Lever openly mentioned he played under duress at the back end of last season 

Pickett - please what has he actually done over an extended period beyond show potential 

You said it yourself we have a list to match it with the best, that’s right match it but not dominate as others suggest. The list is good enough to have us in contention for an decent period.

The group you mention as a whole is no better than 

Daicos x 2, Pendles, Sidebottom, De Goey, Elliott, Crisp and Moore

Bont, Libby, Jones, McRae, English, Smith, Richards

Neale, Andrews, Rayner, Cameron, Gunston, Mcluggage, Dunkley

Boak, Wines,Aliir, Butters, Rozee, Duursma, JHF, 

Jackson, Darcy, Serong, Brayshaw, Young, Ryan, Fyfe, Walters, Pearce Cox

I could go on about the Cats and Swans we have a top end list who all things being equal will have us around the mark with a good run, but all of those groups listed above have deficiencies on particular lines and all know how to beat each other. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn’t fall your way. The measure is when you need to change things up to negate what’s coming your way and we shall see what pans out

 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,214]

2 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Who? None of their backs are, that’s for sure, they play 7 very solid players who all complement Moore, a little undersized with Markov in for Howe but he’s not terrible.

I don’t think their mids are. We’d love Josh Daicos on a wing or even WHE so we had a 3rd wing/forward.

Their forward line aren’t big names but Cox is a forward/ruck when we have 2 rucks.

Mihocek and Ash Johnson (in place of McStay) are better than our talls.

Elliot >>>> Fritsch because he defends.

3 smalls - Bobby Hill, McCreery and sometimes Ginnivan all are better than Spargo and Chandler. Taylor Adams plays the ANB defensive forward role.

They’ve got more run, more mid/forward and backline versatility (Crisp and Daicos can swap) and better more functional talls. 

The only advantages we have on them is 2 rucks - which we can’t leverage, and 2 superstar on ballers - which we struggle to leverage. If Petty plays back we have a height advantage with 3 tall backs but we need run from the backline and a CHF so that’s no advantage either.

Don’t make the mistake Langdon did thinking the Pies are some coaching/game plan miracle. It’s not true, they’re a very talented and well balanced team that play to their strengths. 

Yeah, nah

[Dr. Gonzo 24,214]

6 minutes ago, Pennant St Dee said:

Let me put it this way

2021 - Premiers

2022 - finished 2nd banged up (much to do with poor injury management) and bowed out but certainly put ourselves in contention 

2023 - season a long way to go

Grundy - not her before this season 

Salem barely fit since 2021

Lever openly mentioned he played under duress at the back end of last season 

Pickett - please what has he actually done over an extended period beyond show potential 

You said it yourself we have a list to match it with the best, that’s right match it but not dominate as others suggest. The list is good enough to have us in contention for an decent period.

The group you mention as a whole is no better than 

Daicos x 2, Pendles, Sidebottom, De Goey, Elliott, Crisp and Moore

Bont, Libby, Jones, McRae, English, Smith, Richards

Neale, Andrews, Rayner, Cameron, Gunston, Mcluggage, Dunkley

Boak, Wines,Aliir, Butters, Rozee, Duursma, JHF, 

Jackson, Darcy, Serong, Brayshaw, Young, Ryan, Fyfe, Walters, Pearce Cox

I could go on about the Cats and Swans we have a top end list who all things being equal will have us around the mark with a good run, but all of those groups listed above have deficiencies on particular lines and all know how to beat each other. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn’t fall your way. The measure is when you need to change things up to negate what’s coming your way and we shall see what pans out

 

I disagree I think our high end talent and the amount of high end talent easily accounts for those lists you've mentioned. It's subjective of course but I think people are under selling our list as a coping mechanism for the underperformance we're seeing out of the group at the moment. Many commentators agree and have said one flag out of our list would be an underachievement - we need to strike while the iron is hot and if we fail to at least make a Prelim again serious questions will need to be asked.

[BW511 2,668]

25 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I disagree I think our high end talent and the amount of high end talent easily accounts for those lists you've mentioned. It's subjective of course but I think people are under selling our list as a coping mechanism for the underperformance we're seeing out of the group at the moment. Many commentators agree and have said one flag out of our list would be an underachievement - we need to strike while the iron is hot and if we fail to at least make a Prelim again serious questions will need to be asked.

I disagree. Every one of those lists goes deeper than ours. 
 

More importantly, those lists are working as a group where we have 2 guys stuck trying to do it on their own, maybe 3 with Viney.

[titan_uranus 25,016]

22 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I disagree I think our high end talent and the amount of high end talent easily accounts for those lists you've mentioned. It's subjective of course but I think people are under selling our list as a coping mechanism for the underperformance we're seeing out of the group at the moment. Many commentators agree and have said one flag out of our list would be an underachievement - we need to strike while the iron is hot and if we fail to at least make a Prelim again serious questions will need to be asked.

I’m somewhere between your view and the counter. 

Our list is good. But it is not amazing. You are underselling our opponents’ lists, significantly. I rate some key players higher than @DeeSpencer does but by and large I think he’s fairly shown where sides like Collingwood have an edge with their lists.

I don’t agree that our top end talent accounts for those other lists. In fact, I believe that is our problem - we rely too much on our elite players but we fall away too quickly, particularly in the midfield. Our opponents have deeper midfields and that makes them just as good if not better. 

The media saying we need to win another flag or else waste this list is sensationalism and I think too many Demonlanders buy it. Flags are very hard to win and the competition is more equalised every year. But ultimately if we don’t win another flag then the talent just isn’t at that level. 

[Pennant St Dee 13,173]

2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I disagree I think our high end talent and the amount of high end talent easily accounts for those lists you've mentioned. It's subjective of course but I think people are under selling our list as a coping mechanism for the underperformance we're seeing out of the group at the moment. Many commentators agree and have said one flag out of our list would be an underachievement - we need to strike while the iron is hot and if we fail to at least make a Prelim again serious questions will need to be asked.

I agree with us needing to make a prelim, but lists are based on the bottom 6 in your side

[Macca 16,965]

We didn't play very well with way too many below their best.  Skills below par and not nearly enough corridor football.  Forward line pressure again not up to standard

In other areas of the ground they offloaded the ball very quickly to good effect and subsequently, we weren't able to pressure them

The good news is that we can play a lot better, hopefully beginning next Friday evening