Dylan Shiel anyone?

 

5 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Dylan Shiel anyone?

 

No. Is on big money and really hasn't done anything for a while. 

10 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Dylan Shiel anyone?

 

Worth considering if Essendon pay him down to his proper wage (400-500k) and accept his right value (future 3rd at best).

But I’d be worried there’s not much pace left and he certainly wouldn’t help our kicking. 

30 minutes ago, demon3165 said:

Would give McVee a go in the midfield myself, pace, good skills and good temperament. 

So would I.

Kozzie can have a few minutes early in a quarter to get him involved.

Woey and Howes have both played midfield as juniors.

Spargo also was a mid. Give him a try and see what he can do.

Rivers and Bowey could also be tried.

Then we might add a young mid in the draft, who goes straight in.

I don't prescribe to this theory that a player is only a certain type in every single case. Some players are more versatile than FD's and fans give them credit for. It is only pig headed attitudes that refuse to try some of these options.

Harley Reid can play midfield. Heard he goes alright too 😀

 

I don't subscribe to the views of @JimmyGadson, @fr_ap and @dazzledavey36.

If we had lost our finals by 5 goals each there would be serious cause for concern.  But we didn't and the majority understand that fortune did not favour us during the finals nor in the lead up to them.  It was a throw of the dice who won both our games.  Even with a decimated forward line we were very competitive.

Secondly, it's folly to suggest there isn't significant improvement to be had from players like Rivers, Bowey, Sparrow, Chandler, Kossie, JvR, Petty and McVee.  That's one third of our current team who will improve and doesn't consider those playing at Casey.  It also doesn't include two of the top tier of talents that we will secure this draft period (as it now stands).

We have been seduced by the way we won the flag in 2021 where we thought we were significantly in front of the opposition.  But we had everything running for us in terms of a settled team, no injuries to key players and a patch of form that was never sustainable.

I'm bullish about next year. I don't think we've had much luck in the last two years and I think if we have normal fortune we are as good or better than anyone.  We will have an influx of talent this year that our opponents will envy.

As for depth it's funny isn't it.  JJ was deemed by most to be very disappointing at the end of the season when he was given a good chance.  Harmes couldn't get in the team and nor could Dunstan.  Many called for Rivers, Bowey and McVee to be given runs in the midfield but recognized we are so strong in that area it was difficult to do. But now our mediocre depth midfield has been let go to allow for young talent we are exposed.  Really?

There are so many really good opportunities to improve next season. Natural growth, a settled forward line and the influx of two highly talented players.

That's the flip side to the three I've mentioned above.  I think there is room for optimism and frankly I can't see the point, as supporters, viewing it any other way.

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Spot on.

I think one of the biggest concerns through this trade period is not being able to address our midfield depth at all. It's very thin on paper.

We've just moved on Jordon and Harmes who were both the 23rd and 24th player that were ready to step in when either a Oliver, Brayshaw or Viney had to miss games. Even Luke Dunstan retiring leaves us further lacking in this department. 

Right now, the next best available option is Woewodin and that's it. Brayshaw is one hit away from potential retirement and Viney will be 30 next year. Then there is the obvious concerns with Oliver as well. 

I don't ever see Sparrow ever being a top line midfielder and I think at best he's just an honest battler who's happy to fill in gaps when Petracca and the likes need a breather.

Was hoping we'd go after a mature age ruck to at least just have in the background. If Gawn goes down then it's left to Fullarton who's not even a genuine ruckman but more a forward, and then a 19 year old Will Varrell. 

 

 

I think we will find improvement from hopefully having access to fit forwards (Petty, Fritta) and another year under the belt of JVR.

But that might be off set by not doing anything to address our poor skill level through the midfield (Billings, Duursma or Gresham might have been interesting to look at).  Perhaps something is in the works over the next day or so.  Perhaps they might use Kozzi in the midfield a little bit more next year.

On 10/10/2023 at 19:29, BrisbaneDemon said:

 

Sheil has a connection to Williams at dees, I wonder if there is a sneaky chance?

Also good work by the hawks, bombers and cats for holding everything up.

6 minutes ago, Cheap Seats said:

Sheil has a connection to Williams at dees, I wonder if there is a sneaky chance?

Also good work by the hawks, bombers and cats for holding everything up.

Bomber would need to pay some of his remaining contract, which has as much chance of happening as me wining tatts. And I don't buy tatts tickets 

For all those advocating we trade players in, how do we create the list space?

The only way I can see it happening is if we consolidate 11 and 6 but in all likelihood we won't know that until draft night or shortly before.  Kye Turner is the only other player I can see us delisting and he's a rookie and as far as I'm aware we can't trade onto the rookie list.

We are very tight for spot and yet we've got people lamenting letting JJ, Dunstan and Harmes go.

12 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

For all those advocating we trade players in, how do we create the list space?

The only way I can see it happening is if we consolidate 11 and 6 but in all likelihood we won't know that until draft night or shortly before.  Kye Turner is the only other player I can see us delisting and he's a rookie and as far as I'm aware we can't trade onto the rookie list.

We are very tight for spot and yet we've got people lamenting letting JJ, Dunstan and Harmes go.

6 players gone so far right? Grundy, JJ, Harmes, Dunstan, Hibberd, D. Smith

2 players in. So 4 spots.

Only 2 picks we really need to take.

Personally I’d be happy to take another rookie over Kynan Brown, in the event Brown doesn’t make it to the rookie list.

Melksham already rumoured to drop back. BBB and McDonald could join him too if we need main list spots.

Edited October 17, 20231 yr by DeeSpencer

24 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

I don't subscribe to the views of @JimmyGadson, @fr_ap and @dazzledavey36.

If we had lost our finals by 5 goals each there would be serious cause for concern.  But we didn't and the majority understand that fortune did not favour us during the finals nor in the lead up to them.  It was a throw of the dice who won both our games.  Even with a decimated forward line we were very competitive.

Secondly, it's folly to suggest there isn't significant improvement to be had from players like Rivers, Bowey, Sparrow, Chandler, Kossie, JvR, Petty and McVee.  That's one third of our current team who will improve and doesn't consider those playing at Casey.  It also doesn't include two of the top tier of talents that we will secure this draft period (as it now stands).

We have been seduced by the way we won the flag in 2021 where we thought we were significantly in front of the opposition.  But we had everything running for us in terms of a settled team, no injuries to key players and a patch of form that was never sustainable.

I'm bullish about next year. I don't think we've had much luck in the last two years and I think if we have normal fortune we are as good or better than anyone.  We will have an influx of talent this year that our opponents will envy.

As for depth it's funny isn't it.  JJ was deemed by most to be very disappointing at the end of the season when he was given a good chance.  Harmes couldn't get in the team and nor could Dunstan.  Many called for Rivers, Bowey and McVee to be given runs in the midfield but recognized we are so strong in that area it was difficult to do. But now our mediocre depth midfield has been let go to allow for young talent we are exposed.  Really?

There are so many really good opportunities to improve next season. Natural growth, a settled forward line and the influx of two highly talented players.

That's the flip side to the three I've mentioned above.  I think there is room for optimism and frankly I can't see the point, as supporters, viewing it any other way.

I'm still bullish about our list, but you've ignored our coaching.

We've lost 4 finals in a row over the last 2 seasons, and we can't keep making excuses. In 2022 the players were burnt out, and this year we were hit by injuries to our forwards. Those excuses don't cut it. Oh that's right, it's all due to loading, lol.

Despite the top end talent in our team, our gamestyle is risk averse, and we have to grind out wins against the better teams. You can never question the effort of our players, but I just feel that due to Goody's gameplan, there is rarely any scoreboard reward for our efforts against better teams. 

Until I see some evidence of a gameplan tweak by Goody, I'll be a pessimist of our premiership chances.

7 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

6 players gone so far right? Grundy, JJ, Harmes, Dunstan, Hibberd, D. Smith

2 players in. So 4 spots.

Only 2 picks we really need to take.

Personally I’d be happy to take another rookie over Kynan Brown, in the event Brown doesn’t make it to the rookie list.

Melksham already rumoured to drop back. BBB and McDonald could join him too if we need main list spots.

Turner to be upgraded.

Oh, and you're welcome to be a pessimist, you'll just be unhappy with no recourse to do anything about it.  And then if your right you've just been sad for longer. And if you're wrong you've been sad for no reason.

Edited October 17, 20231 yr by Slartibartfast

3 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

Turner to be upgraded.

Oh, and you're welcome to be a pessimist, you'll just be unhappy with no recourse to do anything about it.  And then if your right you've just been sad for longer. And if you're wrong you've been sad for no reason.

Turner upgraded just impacts the numbers of the various lists not how many players we have. It’s likely to be countered by Melk. 

I don’t rate Kynan Brown, nothing to do with pessimism, just think he’s a rookie level prospect. Neither is shuffling the list by chucking a couple of broken down veterans on the rookie list.

Pick 6 & 11 will help replace the quality we have lost, Fullarton adds ruck/fwd potential / depth, McAdam eases the loss of Jake, Kynan Brown 1/2 fwd,1/2 back quality depth plus a couple of rookies. Plus we need and expect a couple of - Turner, Laurie, Howes, Woewodin, AMW, Adam’s, Verall, Jefferson to step up and show a bit during 2024. We have retained our best 22 with some doubts around two of our top 5 players, we have also released salary cap pressure and will further improve this aspect at the end of 2024, which will allow us to recruit and lock down players we want to keep.
 

Not sure who will take on the Michael Hibberd role maybe Disco, playing tall and small as McVee and Riv are required across HF line it will be a very interesting year, we will have injuries no doubt as all clubs do. Looking forward to seeing how Andrew McQualter tweaks our game plan and forward connection, he is a great get.

Now just looking forward to the Draft and Rookie draft to inject some quality and depth back into the list.

1 hour ago, Slartibartfast said:

I don't subscribe to the views of @JimmyGadson, @fr_ap and @dazzledavey36.

If we had lost our finals by 5 goals each there would be serious cause for concern.  But we didn't and the majority understand that fortune did not favour us during the finals nor in the lead up to them.  It was a throw of the dice who won both our games.  Even with a decimated forward line we were very competitive.

Secondly, it's folly to suggest there isn't significant improvement to be had from players like Rivers, Bowey, Sparrow, Chandler, Kossie, JvR, Petty and McVee.  That's one third of our current team who will improve and doesn't consider those playing at Casey.  It also doesn't include two of the top tier of talents that we will secure this draft period (as it now stands).

We have been seduced by the way we won the flag in 2021 where we thought we were significantly in front of the opposition.  But we had everything running for us in terms of a settled team, no injuries to key players and a patch of form that was never sustainable.

I'm bullish about next year. I don't think we've had much luck in the last two years and I think if we have normal fortune we are as good or better than anyone.  We will have an influx of talent this year that our opponents will envy.

As for depth it's funny isn't it.  JJ was deemed by most to be very disappointing at the end of the season when he was given a good chance.  Harmes couldn't get in the team and nor could Dunstan.  Many called for Rivers, Bowey and McVee to be given runs in the midfield but recognized we are so strong in that area it was difficult to do. But now our mediocre depth midfield has been let go to allow for young talent we are exposed.  Really?

There are so many really good opportunities to improve next season. Natural growth, a settled forward line and the influx of two highly talented players.

That's the flip side to the three I've mentioned above.  I think there is room for optimism and frankly I can't see the point, as supporters, viewing it any other way.

You've certainly missed my point which was purely around the current midfield depth we have on our list as we speak.

The reason why Harmes, Jordon and Dunstan couldn't get in was because they were simply depth players who were able to step in and fill in for Oliver when he was out. We were just very lucky that Petracca, Viney and Brayshaw (bar the last two games) didn't miss games at all last year throughout the season. Jordon and Harmes were experienced players who did well at times to step in straight away and impact at senior level.

It's all good and well to stay Bowey Rivers and McVee can step into midfield roles but then they're leaving holes down back due to their class and run that they provide which sets us up well.

Again, my point with midfield depth is that I'll once again say that Brayshaw is one big hit away from retirement and Oliver has deep personal battles that will need extensive time to heal and manage.

As it stands Woewodin is the only pure midfield depth that we have that can step in when needed next year. Even dating back to 2021 we had solid soliders in Vandenberg, Jones and Jordon ready to step in when needed to provide cover.

I've already explained the ruck depth issue as well. We had the luxury this year of having a quality depth in Grundy stepping in when Gawn was out. Right now its Varrell who is a rookie list player with 0 games behind him and Fullerton who like I said, is forward more then a genuine ruck.

Edited October 17, 20231 yr by dazzledavey36

1 hour ago, mo64 said:

Until I see some evidence of a gameplan tweak by Goody, I'll be a pessimist of our premiership chances.

This is the biggest myth going around. Does my head in. Weren't people watching the finals? 

In nine finals there were only two games where a team kicked more than 100 points - the Lions shellacking of Port at the Gabba and the Giants getting on top of the saints and kicking 101 points.

Come the finals every contender was basically playing a variation of the same game plan the dees employ. Arguably only the Lions game plan was noticeably different with their preference for hitting up short kicks and trying to keep the forward line open (and even then it had the same fundamentals).

This is particularly true of the Pies, who once they lost their fitness advantage near the end of the season basically had almost exactly the same game plan as ours for the last third of the season - defence first, forward half, get territory, contested, intercept, turnover, super high pressure footy.   

In the grand final the Lions tried to negate that style by putting speed on the ball and the game was more open as a result - and resembled the game plan the Pies employed in the first half of the season.

But the second half reverted to script and the Pies turned it into an arm wrestle and used the same game plan as the dees.

Just look at the Pies scoring in the last third of the season. In the first third of the season everyone was seduced by their fast transition from the back half and their high octane offence.

In their 3 finals they averaged a touch under 70 points per game. 

Edited October 17, 20231 yr by binman

11 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

You've certainly missed my point which was purely around the current midfield depth we have on our list as we speak.

I agree our mature midfield depth is shallower now that it was last year.  But you can't both keep depth and regenerate the list.  It's one or the other.

And my point was that perhaps we do have the midfield depth, we just haven't used it.

We can't totally control what happens with Gus and Clarrie.  If both are unavailable it will be a body blow but there's no real way to deal with that for next year.  It's a risk.  And our ruck situation is now exposed, but the alternative is to have someone playing at Casey taking $650,000 of your TPP.

Of course I'd like to be better covered, particularly in the ruck but what were the alternatives?  Keep Brodie?  He didn't want to be a back up ruck and I can understand that.  We may well take Lycett or Teakle as backups, that to me is much more sensible than putting another backup mid in.

No list is perfect Dazzle, we make calls given who is available.  If we have no injuries we have a great team.  We have reasonable cover but not perfect cover, we make our best judgement calls.  All clubs are in the same position.

2 hours ago, DistrACTION Jackson said:

Given Grundy was essentially out of our best side by the end of the year, we actually haven't lost any of our best 22 players.

We've lost a fair amount of depth, however we will gain two top 15 players in the draft and a fair chance one is Sanders or Curtin who will be ready to go straight away you would think.

I would've loved us to pick up a gun key forward, but if there are none available then no point overpaying for someone you don't really rate i.e Mabior Chol or Jacob Koschitzke.

This is pretty much my view.

I think McAdam will add x factor to our forward half and therefore improve us, so it's then about getting continuity forward of centre with Petty, Fritta, McAdam, JVR and Fullarton. Ideally, we get 10 games out of TMac or BB, but I think they're both done.

58 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

I don't subscribe to the views of @JimmyGadson, @fr_ap and @dazzledavey36.

If we had lost our finals by 5 goals each there would be serious cause for concern.  But we didn't and the majority understand that fortune did not favour us during the finals nor in the lead up to them.  It was a throw of the dice who won both our games.  Even with a decimated forward line we were very competitive.

Secondly, it's folly to suggest there isn't significant improvement to be had from players like Rivers, Bowey, Sparrow, Chandler, Kossie, JvR, Petty and McVee.  That's one third of our current team who will improve and doesn't consider those playing at Casey.  It also doesn't include two of the top tier of talents that we will secure this draft period (as it now stands).

We have been seduced by the way we won the flag in 2021 where we thought we were significantly in front of the opposition.  But we had everything running for us in terms of a settled team, no injuries to key players and a patch of form that was never sustainable.

I'm bullish about next year. I don't think we've had much luck in the last two years and I think if we have normal fortune we are as good or better than anyone.  We will have an influx of talent this year that our opponents will envy.

As for depth it's funny isn't it.  JJ was deemed by most to be very disappointing at the end of the season when he was given a good chance.  Harmes couldn't get in the team and nor could Dunstan.  Many called for Rivers, Bowey and McVee to be given runs in the midfield but recognized we are so strong in that area it was difficult to do. But now our mediocre depth midfield has been let go to allow for young talent we are exposed.  Really?

There are so many really good opportunities to improve next season. Natural growth, a settled forward line and the influx of two highly talented players.

That's the flip side to the three I've mentioned above.  I think there is room for optimism and frankly I can't see the point, as supporters, viewing it any other way.

I never said that none of them would improve, I just said not all of them would. It's just realistic. 

In every year, for every team, some players accelerate forward and others regress. Like clockwork. None of us thought that Spargo would be out of the team after how crucial he was in 21. None of us thought Salem would be on thin ice. None of us thought Sparrow would basically at best the same player, in reality arguably worse, than he was in the 21 finals series when he went beast mode. None of us thought Langdon's output would wane. 

What's folly is to assume not only that all young players will grow together, but that that growth will be at a faster rate than similar players on other teams, who - you guessed it, are all banking on & assuming their young maturing players will also improve.

It's the classic safety net for supporters who are at best optimistic, at worse delusional, and mostly just naive. "Well, our young players will get better. We needn't worry - all a matter of time. We'll be right".

We've all been around this block enough times to know how that ends. You need to be aggressive, and you need outstanding coaching & culture to drive growth at a faster rate than the competition, year over year over year over year. Our flag was literally built on aggressive off seasons. Bolting for Clarry at 4, going after the 'bad egg' May, getting in Lever and Langdon's ears 2/3 years out, and then capitalising our on quick dip in 2019 with 3 nailed early-ish selections.

If our players grow at the same rate as the market, we stand still. I'm not saying we're a bad team (not by a long shot), or that we're done, or that our youth are no good, or that our coaching is abysmal. What I'm saying is you need to look at our attributes in all those realms in context of the competition around the league.   

So when I look at those players of ours you've named - do I think most can improve? Absolutely. Do i think most can improve faster than Carlton's youth, Brisbane's youth, Gold Coast's youth, Fremantle's youth, Adelaide's youth? Not necessarily. 

All a matter of coaching, development, and of course your own opinion on each player's ceilings - I think all those named can be good players and that some (Rivers, Pickett, Petty) have very high ceilings. This gives me hope. 

I also think that some are probably already at or close to their ceiling (Sparrow, Chandler, and I'm sure controversially, JVR and McVee to some degree), in that I would not be surprised if JVR kicks less than 28 goals next year, Chandler less than 24, and McVee places lower than 9th in the BNF. Their output this year was actually pretty high. And yeah, we got close. But not close enough. 

But to keep up with the growers in the comp - and every year there are teams that outgrow others due to the factors I listed above - for us to be that close again, all those named will need to at least replicate their 23 output (or others step up in their stead), whilst Petracca goes top 5 in the Brownlow again, Viney top 10 in a career year, Fritsch continues kicking goals for fun in spite of our horrendous efficiency, and Gawn & May keep up their form 1 year older. 

This is not a controversial view and if you speak to non-Melbourne supporters, you'd understand it. All oppo supporters fear Gawn, Trac, Clarry, May and Fritsch. None of them think that any of our next tier are on track to be scary. Not like Ashcroft for Brisbane, Daicos for Coll, or Curnow/Walsh/TDK for Carlton. 

Our stars are amazing - our 2nd tier is good - but our 3rd, 4th and depth is not. You can't have it all - and what we have can be enough if things go our way - but you need to respect how good some other teams are as well.  

And on the depth - no one is claiming that JJ, Harmes or Dunstan are world beaters. But what they were/are is mostly reliable - senior bodies who could take the heat & adhere to structures, there to fill gaps when our 1st choice players are unavailable, track a player back to goals & get a fist in when a youngster might be ball watching. They won't win the game for you - but they can at least keep the team ticking while your game winners find a way to get it done.

You put kids in their absence - and they lose 3 out of the 5 critical contests that come their way over the game - those moments accumulate across the ground and you find yourself losing games against the best teams. Depth is depth - by definition, they can't be our best players, so claiming "we've lost very little" when it walks out the door is redundant, and lacks an understanding of the nuance & requirements of building a list. 

There are many opportunities to improve, and there is no reason we can't be the big, outperforming grower next year. There is plenty of room for optimism. If pick 6 and 11 turn out 3/4 as well as Jackson and Kozzie did - we'll be well on our way. We aren't far away - that much is obvious - but asking the question of where our improvement is coming from is not pessimism. It's just discussion. 

If you can't see the point in discussion then I'd question what you're doing on here at all. There's an echo chamber available to you at all times if you want to reassure yourself that we'll win it next year (and no doubt, that there were terrible, unique, unprecedented unforeseen circumstances that prevented us winning it this year). 

 

    

Every player who plays this game is 1 big hit or horrific injury away from not playing again.

Lists need to be turned over regularly and players identified as not offering anything to improve us need to be moved on if the opportunity arises

14 minutes ago, binman said:

This is the biggest myth going around. Does my head in. Weren't people watching the finals? 

In nine finals there were only two games where a team kicked more than 100 points - the Lions shellacking of Port at the Gabba and the Giants getting on top of the saints and kicking 101 points.

Come the finals every contender was basically playing a variation of the same game plan the dees employ. Arguably only the Lions game plan was noticeably different with their preference for hitting up short kicks and trying to keep the forward line open (and even then it had the same fundamentals).

This is particularly true of the Pies, who once they lost their fitness advantage near the end of the season basically had almost exactly the same game plan as ours for the last third of the season - defence first, forward half, get territory, contested, intercept, turnover footy.   

In the grand final the Lions tried to negate that style by putting speed on the ball and the game was more open as a result - and resembled the game plan the Pies employed in the first half of the season. But the second half reverted to script and the Pies turned it into an arm wrestle and used the same game plan as the dees.

Just look at the Pies scoring in the last third of the season. In the first third of the season everyone was seduced by their fats transition off the half back flank and their high octane offence. In their 3 finals they averaged a touch under 70 points per game. 

It's my opinion that we don't take advantage of our midfield and defensive dominance during big games. Our transition out of defense was non existent during the finals. But that's a discussion for another thread.

13 minutes ago, fr_ap said:

If you can't see the point in discussion then I'd question what you're doing on here at all.     

Discussing was exactly what I was doing, but there were a few posts pointing out the dangers so I presented the other side of the discussion.

Oh, and I didn't mean to infer that all our youngsters would improve but that as a group we'll get more out of them next year than last.

It's interesting you mention Daicos and Ashcroft (with another coming next year). both FS. It's hard to counter that sort of influence.  Daicos x 2 and Moore.  With no FS Pies don't win the flag.  Ablett, Hawkins and Scarlett.  Geelong don't win the flags. FS stink for mine but it isn't changing.

3 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

Discussing was exactly what I was doing, but there were a few posts pointing out the dangers so I presented the other side of the discussion.

Oh, and I didn't mean to infer that all our youngsters would improve but that as a group we'll get more out of them next year than last.

It's interesting you mention Daicos and Ashcroft (with another coming next year). both FS. It's hard to counter that sort of influence.  Daicos x 2 and Moore.  With no FS Pies don't win the flag.  Ablett, Hawkins and Scarlett.  Geelong don't win the flags. FS stink for mine but it isn't changing.

You said you don't see the point in anything other than unbridled optimism. On matters of opinion that's as good as saying you're not interested in discussion.

Agree on the FS, a total game changer. We benefited with Viney (Woey?) & hopefully get our dose coming soon with Kalani (maybe Yze, but the wraps arent as high).