CHANGES: PF vs Geelong

[TheWiz 692]

6 hours ago, Mel Bourne said:

Seems a bit of a stretch to say that Bowey, who’s played 5 games, possesses a wiser head than Hunt who’s played 94. 

I’m really excited by Bowey but his inexperience and lack of wisdom (which is something gained, not learned) has peeked through at times. Specifically his lack of opposition-awareness. He’ll get there and he’ll get there well, but I think it would be a bit remiss to consider him an automatic replacement for Jayden just yet. 

That’s like saying Sam Frost has a wiser head than Hunt because he’s played 129 games.

Bowey seems a lot more composed in disposals than Hunt, hence the feeling of ‘wiser’. IMO a few commentators were echoing the same sentiment on the weekend too.

2021

Bowey: 16.4 disposals / 84.1% efficiency / 2.2 clangers

Hunt: 13.7 disposals / 73.4% efficiency / 2.4 clangers

[dazzledavey36 48,737]

6 hours ago, Sean Balor said:

Bowey has been good. I wouldn't drop him. If that QF was his test? He passed with flying colours.

50/50

[Lord Nev 13,511]

6 hours ago, Mel Bourne said:

Seems a bit of a stretch to say that Bowey, who’s played 5 games, possesses a wiser head than Hunt who’s played 94. 

I’m really excited by Bowey but his inexperience and lack of wisdom (which is something gained, not learned) has peeked through at times. Specifically his lack of opposition-awareness. He’ll get there and he’ll get there well, but I think it would be a bit remiss to consider him an automatic replacement for Jayden just yet. 

Why? Different players have different aspects to their game. That's just footy. Bowey is naturally less panicked and a far better user than Hunt. Games played doesn't have anything to do with it IMO. Look at Sam Frost, would you call him a wise head? Toby Greene, wise head?

Just playing more games doesn't make you wiser as a player, and more 'experience' hasn't stopped Hunt from being caught and turning the ball over, albeit a bit less than he used to.

"Opposition-awareness"? Bowey got caught once. Remember when Hunt got caught like 4 times in 5 minutes? His 'experience' didn't save him those times.

[Mel Bourne 3,663]

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

Why? Different players have different aspects to their game. That's just footy. Bowey is naturally less panicked and a far better user than Hunt. Games played doesn't have anything to do with it IMO. Look at Sam Frost, would you call him a wise head? Toby Greene, wise head?

Just playing more games doesn't make you wiser as a player, and more 'experience' hasn't stopped Hunt from being caught and turning the ball over, albeit a bit less than he used to.

"Opposition-awareness"? Bowey got caught once. Remember when Hunt got caught like 4 times in 5 minutes? His 'experience' didn't save him those times.

I think it’s important not to be hyperbolic when discussing fairly nuanced stuff like this; he wasn’t caught 4 times in 5 minutes.

Bowey was also caught standing still in the opposition goal square against the Cats, in a situation where he had plenty of room and time to evade, which gave them a free kick 10m out (and a goal). Again, I’m not trashing Bowey AT ALL. He’s great. But when I saw that, I saw a young player getting used to the big league (and certainly didn’t begrudge him that) and didn’t see a wise old-soul in the body of a kid. Sorry.

I know what you mean when you say that some players don’t seem to develop football-wisdom no matter how many games they play. My point however, was that saying that some have it in spades over their teammates after playing five games is a bit much.

And yep, Bowey’s disposal efficiency is in better shape, but he doesn’t have the run and carry that Hunt has. All I’m saying is that the choice is not as clear as some are making out. 

 

 

 

[Lord Nev 13,511]

3 minutes ago, Mel Bourne said:

I think it’s important not to be hyperbolic when discussing fairly nuanced stuff like this; he wasn’t caught 4 times in 5 minutes.

Bowey was also caught standing still in the opposition goal square against the Cats, in a situation where he had plenty of room and time to evade, which gave them a free kick 10m out (and a goal). Again, I’m not trashing Bowey AT ALL. He’s great. But when I saw that, I saw a young player getting used to the big league (and certainly didn’t begrudge him that) and didn’t see a wise old-soul in the body of a kid. Sorry.

I know what you mean when you say that some players don’t seem to develop football-wisdom no matter how many games they play. My point however, was that saying that some have it in spades over their teammates after playing five games is a bit much.

And yep, Bowey’s disposal efficiency is in better shape, but he doesn’t have the run and carry that Hunt has. All I’m saying is that the choice is not as clear as some are making out.

You're right, I just checked, it was 3 times in 10 minutes. That still means in 10 minutes of football, Hunt was caught more than Bowey has been in his 5 games this year. What did you see when you saw that? I saw a player with not much awareness despite his 'experience'.

Sure, Hunt has most of our players covered for 'run and carry', but not sure what that has got to do with 'football-wisdom'? Bowey is clearly a better decision maker and user than Hunt, don't you agree? For me, it's not even close.

I'm not trying to put Hunt down, he has his strengths, and they're useful for us, but it's simply no contest when comparing their 'football wisdom' IMO. I honestly don't think it's a 'bit much' to say one player has more of a certain aspect to their game than another despite the difference in games played. That's just the different talents of different players.

[Mel Bourne 3,663]

3 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

You're right, I just checked, it was 3 times in 10 minutes. That still means in 10 minutes of football, Hunt was caught more than Bowey has been in his 5 games this year. What did you see when you saw that? I saw a player with not much awareness despite his 'experience'.

Sure, Hunt has most of our players covered for 'run and carry', but not sure what that has got to do with 'football-wisdom'? Bowey is clearly a better decision maker and user than Hunt, don't you agree? For me, it's not even close.

I'm not trying to put Hunt down, he has his strengths, and they're useful for us, but it's simply no contest when comparing their 'football wisdom' IMO. I honestly don't think it's a 'bit much' to say one player has more of a certain aspect to their game than another despite the difference in games played. That's just the different talents of different players.

IIRC, Hunt was also at the end of some ambulance-delivery in that spate of HTBs. I think it's pretty harsh to characterise Hunt's contribution this year by discussing what I'm sure he'd regard as his season's lowest moment without the context of other matches where he's genuinely impressed us all.

"Sure, Hunt has most of our players covered for 'run and carry', but not sure what that has got to do with 'football-wisdom'?"

I'm not saying it has anything to do with football-wisdom. Merely that it's an aspect to his game he has over Bowey, and needs to be factored in when the decision gets made.

 

 

[Mel Bourne 3,663]

2 hours ago, TheWiz said:

That’s like saying Sam Frost has a wiser head than Hunt because he’s played 129 games.

Bowey seems a lot more composed in disposals than Hunt, hence the feeling of ‘wiser’. IMO a few commentators were echoing the same sentiment on the weekend too.

2021

Bowey: 16.4 disposals / 84.1% efficiency / 2.2 clangers

Hunt: 13.7 disposals / 73.4% efficiency / 2.4 clangers

Not sure you get a fair result averaging out 20 games vs 5. Players don't exactly get fresher and fresher out there with each round.

"That’s like saying Sam Frost has a wiser head than Hunt because he’s played 129 games."

It's really not.

Bowey has played five matches. It's a very different comparison.

[Lord Nev 13,511]

2 minutes ago, Mel Bourne said:

IIRC, Hunt was also at the end of some ambulance-delivery in that spate of HTBs. I think it's pretty harsh to characterise Hunt's contribution this year by discussing what I'm sure he'd regard as his season's lowest moment without the context of other matches where he's genuinely impressed us all.

"Sure, Hunt has most of our players covered for 'run and carry', but not sure what that has got to do with 'football-wisdom'?"

I'm not saying it has anything to do with football-wisdom. Merely that it's an aspect to his game he has over Bowey, and needs to be factored in when the decision gets made.

For sure, as mentioned, Hunt has most of our players covered for run and carry, but that's not what was being discussed in regards to the whole 'football wisdom' thing.

Also, just using that Hunt 10 minute period as an example, just like you picked out the 2 times Bowey was caught as your example. Reckon it's fair enough for me to bring it up in that case tbh.

For mine, with Salem not in peak form due to injury I would be trying to keep Bowey in atm. That doesn't neccessarily mean Hunt doesn't come in, but I'd be disappointed (and concerned for our ball use) if it was a swap for Bowey in that circumstance. I can understand why some are arguing Bowey's lack of experience, but my whole point in all this is that experience doesn't make you a better decision maker, some players have that as a strength and some don't.

The other thing perhaps being ignored in all this, is Hibberd has both Bowey and Hunt covered for experience.

[Mel Bourne 3,663]

18 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

but that's not what was being discussed in regards to the whole 'football wisdom' thing.

 

Wellll, the whole "football-wisdom" thing was couched within a bigger conversation about who gets selected if it comes down one or the other.

Anyway I've learned to trust the selectors these days, and I'm sure they'll make the right choice. And I realise there's no room for sentiment in these things, but I admit I'd hate to see Hunty get sidelined for the finals despite being fit. He made a real effort to take his game to another level this year (despite occasional fades), and I genuinely believe he's in our best 22.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Mel Bourne

[Lord Nev 13,511]

7 minutes ago, Mel Bourne said:

Wellll, the whole "football-wisdom" thing was couched within a bigger conversation about who gets selected if it comes down one or the other.

Anyway I've learned to trust the selectors these days, and I'm sure they'll make the right choice. And I realise there's no room for sentiment in these things, but I admit I'd hate to see Hunty get sidelined for the finals despite being fit. He made a real effort to take his game to another level this year (despite occasional fades), and I genuinely believe he's in our best 22.

I'm with ya mate. Selection has been a lot better this year than previous years, from our outside perspective at least anyways, we seem to be being 'less tricky' with it and just trusting the roles etc.

Would be exciting to see Hunt on a big run down the middle in a prelim!

[ManDee 7,077]

9 hours ago, Mel Bourne said:

Seems a bit of a stretch to say that Bowey, who’s played 5 games, possesses a wiser head than Hunt who’s played 94. 

I’m really excited by Bowey but his inexperience and lack of wisdom (which is something gained, not learned) has peeked through at times. Specifically his lack of opposition-awareness. He’ll get there and he’ll get there well, but I think it would be a bit remiss to consider him an automatic replacement for Jayden just yet. 

Exactly how do you gain wisdom? Surely it is through learning.

[Mel Bourne 3,663]

4 minutes ago, ManDee said:

Exactly how do you gain wisdom? Surely it is through learning.

What I meant by that is that there is no "Wisdom Class" at school/training. Wisdom can only be gained through a combination of experience, awareness and knowledge.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Mel Bourne

[Skuit 9,169]

Great, respectful discussion. Keep it up guys. Demonland at its best. 

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,397]

Well, based on the views of many in this thread, Hibberd's chance of getting a recall for the Preliminary Final have nose-dived with Greene's suspension.  

[binman 38,022]

18 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Smith is terrible, no idea why he's getting a game when Hibberd is there. If Hunt is fit he's back in surely, Smith cost us 3 goals in the first quarter we're flirting with danger.

I'm a Smith fan, but he struggles one on one against natural forwards who read the ball in flight and use their body well. A player like Fritter would give him a bath.

Cameron is one of the bets in the business, one on one, so it was always going to be tough ask for Smith.

However, to balance the critique of his performance against Cameron it is important to note that he kept him to one possession and a point in the second quarter when we won the game.

And significantly Goody kept Smith on him all game. So must have been pretty happy with with the defensive set up across the board. 

For me it depends on matchups. he is perfect for Geelong as they run with three talls and only Hawkins is really stay at home forward, so Smith can stay with Rohan and Cameron running.

All that said, if Hunt is ready to go for the finals i'd bring him in a flash, with Smith the unlucky out.

[Young Blood 1,985]

21 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Well, based on the views of many in this thread, Hibberd's chance of getting a recall for the Preliminary Final have nose-dived with Greene's suspension.  

As have GWS's chances of beating an (overall) better side in Geelong.

Would like to see Hibberd come in for some versatility against their bigger potent forwardline if Geelong gets up. When Danger floats forward or there's handover of a player like Cameron I'd much prefer Hibberd. But this would be for Smith. Probably not part of the Hunt/Bowey debate as he plays more as a medium/tall back less as a small rebounding one.

[Sydee 3,613]

9 minutes ago, binman said:

I'm a Smith fan, but he struggles one on one against natural forwards who read the ball in flight and use their body well. A player like Fritter would give him a bath.

Cameron is one of the bets in the business, one on one, so it was always going to be tough ask for Smith.

However, to balance the critique of his performance against Cameron it is important to note that he kept him to one possession and a point in the second quarter when we won the game.

And significantly Goody kept Smith on him all game. So must have been pretty happy with with the defensive set up across the board. 

For me it depends on matchups. he is perfect for Geelong as they run with three talls and only Hawkins is really stay at home forward, so Smith can stay with Rohan and Cameron running.

All that said, if Hunt is ready to go for the finals i'd bring him in a flash, with Smith the unlucky out.

I agree - I too like Smith and think he certainly has potential to be best 22 but atm he is probably more of a poor mans Jake Leaver but being asked to play a different role

To keep someone like a Cameron quiet you simply have to wear them like a glove and while a couple of Cameron's goals were probably not directly Joel's doing he generally gave him too much space 

If you look at his goals 

1- absolute fluke handball and happened to be standing in right spot at right time

2- Poor disposal error from Rivers gifts Cameron possession and Smith caught out of position

3- Salem seemed to be marking him at that time

4- Turned Smith inside out - we have seen plenty of defenders suffer that fate

5- Holding free - was there but looked like Cameron held Smiths arm to milk the free first

Depending on match ups and Hunts fitness you would probably have to reward Hunt as he has been good throughout the season and his run and carry can be very effective particularly when matched with Langdon.

Our MC has got some tough decisions ahead of them but so far they seem to have got selection right for the vast majority of games

[titan_uranus 22,351]

31 minutes ago, binman said:

I'm a Smith fan, but he struggles one on one against natural forwards who read the ball in flight and use their body well. A player like Fritter would give him a bath.

Cameron is one of the bets in the business, one on one, so it was always going to be tough ask for Smith.

However, to balance the critique of his performance against Cameron it is important to note that he kept him to one possession and a point in the second quarter when we won the game.

And significantly Goody kept Smith on him all game. So must have been pretty happy with with the defensive set up across the board. 

For me it depends on matchups. he is perfect for Geelong as they run with three talls and only Hawkins is really stay at home forward, so Smith can stay with Rohan and Cameron running.

All that said, if Hunt is ready to go for the finals i'd bring him in a flash, with Smith the unlucky out.

All valid points to debate, except the one about the second quarter IMO. Was it really Smith who kept him to one possession and a point in the second quarter? In that quarter inside 50s were 18-9 in our favour and the ball spent significant periods in our forward half. Do you recall Cameron being on the end of a chain of possession and Smith beating him? I don't (which isn't to say it didn't happen, just that I don't recall it happening).

[adonski 9,144]

I get we've got 2 week til gametime but seems Hunt is more unlikely than likely judging by this...

[Rossmillan 474]

I don’t know who won the debate regarding smith?

I did see him punch his fist once on his way off, and May seem to come across and push smith in the chest as a bit of a fire up action once as well.  I’d suggest a couple of goals against him were not as they would have liked.

Reality is we are talking about one change in my opinion, is it hunt or smith.  More changes is not required to make the team better.

Assuming Hunt is 100% right to go, he offers more defensively with his speed and pressure able to make up for any errors in positioning, he has been in for most of the year and will slot back in fine.

Question is, is he 100% fit, because if not I’m happy to stick with smith.

I think it’s all semantics, for mine it won’t be the difference between winning and losing.