Our forwards don’t seem to time their leads toward the centre from back in the goal square nearly well enough, nor do they spread well enough. Jason Dunstall was an expert at timing his lead. He also rarely missed the goals. Perhaps they should watch a few videos of him! Tom Mac is the one who does it sometimes. We often see our forwards lead in a pack together and the ball goes over the tips of their fingers. And missing the goals frequently from set shots is just hopeless for an AFL forward. 

Edited July 19, 20213 yr by Antioch

2 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

Yeah 100%, no argument there. We seem to want to get it deep forward in one go rather than think through it. In this scenario, it looks like maybe going short to Brayshaw would have been a good option. Pretty disappointing.

So many of our fwd entries go to the pockets. I assume its so we can hold it in there and doesn't rebound straight out. But it means our goal kicking is totally hit and miss. And totally confusing to our goal kickers that don't know where to lead - at round 18 FFS

The example you have referred to is different. Its a fast break from the middle. And not one single fwd is leadin at the ball carrier. Its beyond frustraing.

What the hell do they train for ?

 

5 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

So many of our fwd entries go to the pockets. I assume its so we can hold it in there and doesn't rebound straight out. But it means our goal kicking is totally hit and miss. And totally confusing to our goal kickers that don't know where to lead - at round 18 FFS

The example you have referred to is different. Its a fast break from the middle. And not one single fwd is leadin at the ball carrier. Its beyond frustraing.

What the hell do they train for ?

 

TBF that seems to be a trend this year - leading to the pockets - you're probably correct in your observation it's to prevent turnovers/rebound opportunities.

I don't totally blame the players though, our forward structure has been a mess for a while and it would be compounded by the selection this year which has meant it's not only different players every week but also numerous different structures. TMac and Brown were back to being all over each other on the weekend.

Plus, from what I've heard, quite often forward leads haven't been honoured when they should have so that would add to the mess.

 Viney was given votes in The Age as equal second best on the field against Hawthorn ?

23 minutes ago, joeboy said:

 Viney was given votes in The Age as equal second best on the field against Hawthorn ?

They looked at his stats. 32 disposals looks good anywhere regardless how effective they are.

2 hours ago, Antioch said:

Our forwards don’t seem to time their leads toward the centre from back in the goal square nearly well enough, nor do they spread well enough. Jason Dunstall was an expert at timing his lead. He also rarely missed the goals. Perhaps they should watch a few videos of him! Tom Mac is the one who does it sometimes. We often see our forwards lead in a pack together and the ball goes over the tips of their fingers. And missing the goals frequently from set shots is just hopeless for an AFL forward. 

Being a forward in our side when we play poorly is a nightmare because we over use the ball, we use the flick handball and we handball to much.  Jason Dunstall played in a different era same as Lockett, it was one on one Football and the game was based around kicking the ball.  Now it is about protecting space extra numbers down back, forwards pushing to the contest and keeping possession of the footy by hand  until either you get clear for a kick, pressured and you are forced down the line or turn the footy over.

Back in 80s and 90s you never saw the kick to handball ratio we see now, it would be 1 handball to every 2-3 kicks.

 

39 minutes ago, joeboy said:

 Viney was given votes in The Age as equal second best on the field against Hawthorn ?

Clearly did not watch the game ... 

1 hour ago, joeboy said:

 Viney was given votes in The Age as equal second best on the field against Hawthorn ?

And there lies the cause of the problem for Jack. I suspect all his life from Junior days onwards, Jack has been patted on the back for hunting the ball and racking up possessions. Have any coaches had the desire to tell him to leave some balls for others and one good kick is better than  three bad kicks. I doubt it. This whole tough guy mystique around him leaves me cold. 

Edited July 19, 20213 yr by Half forward flank

I just think he needs to reinvent himself. Midfields now seem to be made up of contested players with height who can dispose of the ball while being tackled. Think Oliver, Bontempelli, etc. Maybe Jack is a pressure forward?

29 minutes ago, Half forward flank said:

And there lies the cause of the problem for Jack. I suspect all his life from Junior days onwards, Jack has been patted on the back for hunting the ball and racking up possessions. Have any coaches had the desire to tell him to leave some balls for others and one good kick is better than  three bad kicks. I doubt it. This whole tough guy mystique around him leaves me cold. 

That post is pure garbage.  Yep he didn't deserve to be named in the best over the weekend, everyone has a differing opinion on who deserves best players, look at to Votes post on this site to see that.  Viney on the weekend didn't butcher the ball any worse that Brayshaw and Oliver, it is just that the couple of clean centre clearances he had he absolutely butchered it.

As I keep posting, Viney is a part of a midfield group that collectively have poor disposal and decision making skills.  When the pressure goes on so does the selfish metre rises for a few of our mids, they think they are doing the right thing to turn the game back on our terms but it is actually the opposite, Oliver and Petracca are also very guilty of this.

I do agree though we need to look at trading out one of our mids at seasons end if the right deal or player was offered.  We need to add a highly skilled mid into our group.  To me Brayshaw has the most value maybe a trade to Fremantle for Cerra

Edited July 19, 20213 yr by drdrake

3 minutes ago, drdrake said:

That post is pure garbage.  Yep he didn't deserve to be named in the best over the weekend, everyone has a differing opinion on who deserves best players, look at to Votes post on this site to see that.  Viney on the weekend didn't butcher the ball any worse that Brayshaw and Oliver, it is just that the couple of clean centre clearances he had he absolutely butchered it.

As I keep posting, Viney is a part of a midfield group that collectively have poor disposal and decision making skills.  When the pressure goes on so does the selfish metre rises for a few of our mids, they think they are doing the right thing to turn the game back on our terms but it is actually the opposite, Oliver and Petracca are also very guilty of this.

I do agree though we need to look at trading out one of our mids at seasons end if the right deal or player was offered.  We need to add a highly skilled mid into our group.  To me Brayshaw has the most value maybe a trade to Fremantle for Cerra

Oliver and Petracca have MASSIVE other strengths to offset their occasional kicking woes. 

Jack just has additional liabilities (gets caught too often, dumb, selfish)

Don't want him traded, but do want him out of the middle. His role earlier in the year worked, why change this???

 

Oliver, Petracca and Jordon     or    Oliver, Petracca and Brayshaw     are 2 midfield mixes that have been successful. 

Oliver, Petracca, and Viney has only very very occasionally worked. 

 

Great post Half Forward Flank    -     Spot on. 

 

Outside Spargo, we seem to have reverted to our bomb it long and hope plan which is a

10 minutes ago, drdrake said:

That post is pure garbage.  Yep he didn't deserve to be named in the best over the weekend, everyone has a differing opinion on who deserves best players, look at to Votes post on this site to see that.  Viney on the weekend didn't butcher the ball any worse that Brayshaw and Oliver, it is just that the couple of clean centre clearances he had he absolutely butchered it.

As I keep posting, Viney is a part of a midfield group that collectively have poor disposal and decision making skills.  When the pressure goes on so does the selfish metre rises for a few of our mids, they think they are doing the right thing to turn the game back on our terms but it is actually the opposite, Oliver and Petracca are also very guilty of this.

I do agree though we need to look at trading out one of our mids at seasons end if the right deal or player was offered.  We need to add a highly skilled mid into our group.  To me Brayshaw has the most value maybe a trade to Fremantle for Cerra

Our midfield group is fine, the issues you're mentioning are highlighted because of a poor game, but they weren't the cause of the poor game. 

The MFC is really simple, when we bring our effort, pressure, intensity we're the best side in the comp, when we don't, any side can beat us. 

it's impossible to do that every single week though, no team has ever managed it, what we have to do as a side though is bridge the gap between our best and worst, if we had been 10% better when we're off, we could potentially be looking at still being undefeated. 

and the beautiful thing is, we still have not been genuinely outplayed, when we've been anywhere near our best, that's the nice thing. all the other sides have. 

13 minutes ago, Dwight Schrute said:

Outside Spargo, we seem to have reverted to our bomb it long and hope plan which is a

Our midfield group is fine, the issues you're mentioning are highlighted because of a poor game, but they weren't the cause of the poor game. 

The MFC is really simple, when we bring our effort, pressure, intensity we're the best side in the comp, when we don't, any side can beat us. 

it's impossible to do that every single week though, no team has ever managed it, what we have to do as a side though is bridge the gap between our best and worst, if we had been 10% better when we're off, we could potentially be looking at still being undefeated. 

and the beautiful thing is, we still have not been genuinely outplayed, when we've been anywhere near our best, that's the nice thing. all the other sides have. 

 

Great post Dwight - and this will be even more accurate if we knock off the dogs this week (like I suspect we will)

 

9 minutes ago, Dwight Schrute said:

Outside Spargo, we seem to have reverted to our bomb it long and hope plan which is a

Our midfield group is fine, the issues you're mentioning are highlighted because of a poor game, but they weren't the cause of the poor game. 

The MFC is really simple, when we bring our effort, pressure, intensity we're the best side in the comp, when we don't, any side can beat us. 

it's impossible to do that every single week though, no team has ever managed it, what we have to do as a side though is bridge the gap between our best and worst, if we had been 10% better when we're off, we could potentially be looking at still being undefeated. 

and the beautiful thing is, we still have not been genuinely outplayed, when we've been anywhere near our best, that's the nice thing. all the other sides have. 

Lets revisit this at seasons end, I'm happy to be proved wrong but I think we need to add at least 1 good ball user into our midfield group to complement what we have, an Andrew Gaff type of player would have a field day playing in our side, let our bulls win the footy and just be outside to finish off their hard work.

14 minutes ago, 1964_2 said:

Oliver and Petracca have MASSIVE other strengths to offset their occasional kicking woes. 

Jack just has additional liabilities (gets caught too often, dumb, selfish)

Don't want him traded, but do want him out of the middle. His role earlier in the year worked, why change this???

 

Oliver, Petracca and Jordon     or    Oliver, Petracca and Brayshaw     are 2 midfield mixes that have been successful. 

Oliver, Petracca, and Viney has only very very occasionally worked. 

 

Great post Half Forward Flank    -     Spot on. 

 

I  feel  very uncomfortable to hear you and Joeboy describing Viney as selfish.

The guy gives his all for the team, and for the club.  He is so brave for the team's cause that he endures repeated physical onslaughts.

I hope to hell he doesn't read Demonland.      If he does , I hope he realises that the vast majority of Demon supporters appreciate and admire his efforts. 

  I am appalled by suggestions that we should consider trading a guy who I think of as the heart and soul of our club.

3 minutes ago, drdrake said:

Lets revisit this at seasons end, I'm happy to be proved wrong but I think we need to add at least 1 good ball user into our midfield group to complement what we have, an Andrew Gaff type of player would have a field day playing in our side, let our bulls win the footy and just be outside to finish off their hard work.

Absolutely! i am not against the idea of trading one or both of Viney/Brayshaw if it meant getting in some outside class to balance the overall midfield, however i also think the current midfield group is good enough to win the premiership

35 minutes ago, drdrake said:

That post is pure garbage.  Yep he didn't deserve to be named in the best over the weekend, everyone has a differing opinion on who deserves best players, look at to Votes post on this site to see that.  Viney on the weekend didn't butcher the ball any worse that Brayshaw and Oliver, it is just that the couple of clean centre clearances he had he absolutely butchered it.

As I keep posting, Viney is a part of a midfield group that collectively have poor disposal and decision making skills.  When the pressure goes on so does the selfish metre rises for a few of our mids, they think they are doing the right thing to turn the game back on our terms but it is actually the opposite, Oliver and Petracca are also very guilty of this.

I do agree though we need to look at trading out one of our mids at seasons end if the right deal or player was offered.  We need to add a highly skilled mid into our group.  To me Brayshaw has the most value maybe a trade to Fremantle for Cerra

Get your thoughts in order before you call my post garbage.  Vineys disposal over the years has been below average. Your attitude to me criticising his handling just goes to show how I am correct in that he has always been praised and has either not been told of the things he has to work on or else he does not listen. 

Edited July 19, 20213 yr by Half forward flank

1 minute ago, Jumping Jack Clennett said:

I  feel  very uncomfortable to hear you and Joeboy describing Viney as selfish.

The guy gives his all for the team, and for the club.  He is so brave for the team's cause that he endures repeated physical onslaughts.

I hope to hell he doesn't read Demonland.      If he does , I hope he realises that the vast majority of Demon supporters appreciate and admire his efforts. 

  I am appalled by suggestions that we should consider trading a guy who I think of as the heart and soul of our club.

I will acknowledge his desire for the ball, tackling and pressure acts are impressive, and highly appreciated. 

Maybe selfish is the wrong word......but how else do you describe him getting in the way and cutting off Petracca/Oliver when they are in better positions to get the contested ball?      And then Jack hurting the team by leaving us exposed on the outside

Petracca/Oliver very rarely, if ever get in each other's way.  Jack needs to urgently learn about cohesion, or hide himself on a flank....If I am wrong, happy to hear about it? but i just feel this has been a constant issue for a few years now

 

 

20 hours ago, Graeme Yeats' Mullet said:

They're all calling for it... None of them are in front of their opponents and running at it

This is what's wrong with our forward line!

Yeh, we are static at times and just wanting the ball at a contest (which works from time to time but not every time), i'd like to see  more movement in the f50.

 

4 minutes ago, 1964_2 said:

Outside Spargo, we seem to have reverted to our bomb it long and hope plan

Melksham seemed to find a target with his kicks into the f50, wonder if he's close to a recall. 

 

 

13 minutes ago, Jumping Jack Clennett said:

I  feel  very uncomfortable to hear you and Joeboy describing Viney as selfish.

The guy gives his all for the team, and for the club.  He is so brave for the team's cause that he endures repeated physical onslaughts.

I hope to hell he doesn't read Demonland.      If he does , I hope he realises that the vast majority of Demon supporters appreciate and admire his efforts. 

  I am appalled by suggestions that we should consider trading a guy who I think of as the heart and soul of our club.

No doubt many of the views in this thread are harsh on Jack - reality is, a midfield needs a complimentary mix. Unfortunately for him, he is a poor man’s version of Petracca/Oliver. I am sure he would be a much more effective midfielder for other teams where he could compliment outside class. 

this is where the responsibility is on the coaches to identify the issue and not expose him (and the team) by playing him in the middle, with 2 other similar but better players. 
 

 

1 minute ago, Half forward flank said:

Get your thoughts in order before you call my post garbage.  Vineys disposal over the years has been below average. Your attitude to me criticising his handling just goes to show how I am corect in that he has always been praised and has either ot been told of the things he has to work on or else he does not listen. 

OK, you are slamming him, his past/current coaches which includes his dad for not taking him down a peg or two.  That Viney will read The Age best players and think I was awesome today, you don't think that his current coaches will review his turnovers and  highlight them.

I think most on here would acknowledge how much we love Jacks hardness, loyalty and hunger for the club.

He's unmatched in this area. 

The deeper concern for me is his ability to play the modern game.

Which is where I'm so torn being an admirer of his efforts, but a realist in his skills. 

I so want him to prove me (and others here) wrong and to come out and destroy a game like we've seen in the past. 

However, given his injuries and how quickly the game is changing. I think he is going to struggle for the rest of the year. 

Finals will be the big test. By then, he'll have games under his belt and some momentum. 

If he can't fix his game by finals or in finals then I would consider trading him. Consider being the main word. 

Is it worth it to stomach these constant errors and his lack of skills for another 3-4 years? 

He will have to play midfield and what he offers won't be enough for us to seriously compete in the next 2-3 years

I can see him maybe playing forward and getting into the middle every so often, but his delivery, pace and skill is wasted in a critical role. 

To me, he's tradable for the right price

6 minutes ago, WA Demon Boy said:

To me, he's tradable for the right price

What is the right price a third or fourth round pick that is all you would get for him with his age and recent injuries

Lot of people praising Jack for his "toughness", "loyalty", "heart and soul" etc. but not many praising him for his ability to affect scoring chains, hitting targets or making good decisions. That says it all really. Heart and soul doesn't win games, skill execution does. 

It's time for Jack to reinvent himself. He is a liability in the middle now. 

4 hours ago, jnrmac said:

So many of our fwd entries go to the pockets. I assume its so we can hold it in there and doesn't rebound straight out. But it means our goal kicking is totally hit and miss. And totally confusing to our goal kickers that don't know where to lead - at round 18 FFS

The example you have referred to is different. Its a fast break from the middle. And not one single fwd is leadin at the ball carrier. Its beyond frustraing.

What the hell do they train for ?

 

Agree.

That's what leads to that idiotic attempted pass by Fritta, when 40 out on the boundary and we are leading by 5 points, deep into the last quarter.

He passed to a small forward, with 3 Hawks defenders all around him, to try and get it to a better scoring position, when a point would have won us the game and even at that stage, wasted a bit more time.

The result was the obvious spoil, with the ball rushed up the other end of the ground.

While I am at it, where were the leaders telling him to take his 30 seconds and make sure he gets a score at least with the kick?