CHANGES: Rd 12 vs Brisbane

[Mr Steve 3,820]

Inch of luck last Friday and the Weid takes 8 marks and kicks 6 or 7 goals. 

[old55 23,600]

18 hours ago, binman said:

A couple of things nev.

I meant it is woeful that both of our key forwards apply poor levels of pressure. They both concern me. 

Tackles of randomly selected KPFs this round so far:

Naughton 0, Weid 1, Max King 1, J.Kennedy 1, Hipwood 2, Ben King 2, Hawkins 2

[Lord Nev 13,512]

1 hour ago, binman said:

Maybe their were mitigating circumstances. Maybe he was carrying an injury. Maybe the coaches told him to hold back in case he needed to be called up for the ones. Maybe he struggled to combine with mitch. 

Who knows.

"Hey Browny, make sure you don't get more than 4 touches. And probably best to not exert yourself by taking any marks or kicking any kind of score."

Makes sense mate. ;)

1 hour ago, binman said:

In the 2017, 2018 and 2019 home and away seasons Brown finished 3rd, 2nd and 2nd in the Coleman medal and kicked a combined total of 188 goals across 66 games, the most of any player in the AFL over that time period.

We don't pick the team based on form from 2-4 years ago. Would be a pretty different looking, and performing, team if we did.

 

[binman 43,007]

4 minutes ago, Pollyanna said:

Tackles of randomly selected KPFs this round so far:

Naughton 0, Weid 1, Max King 1, J.Kennedy 1, Hipwood 2, Ben King 2, Hawkins 2

Sure. But there is a lot more to forward half pressure than tackles

[Lord Nev 13,512]

53 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

Past form...current form....how much more current do want then Rd 7 & 8? I’ve simply asked you to remove the Carlton game from calculations as that is the one you keep referencing as to where Weid performed better than Brown. Based on our team structures when Jackson is in the side and both Brown and Weid have both had two games each without the other playing to put their case forward. I’ve asked you to compare those and you have chosen not to. I’m of the opinion based of the opinion that Brown did more in rounds 7 & 8 then Weids did in 10 & 11. So as for the anti Weid sentiment you are wrong, I think what you will find is what people are after is what you said earlier, and that is “we’ve waited so long to build a genuinely competitive culture and some want yo throw it out the window at first chance”. VFL form is one thing doing at the top is another. Brown has done more is his two games yet was dropped for his efforts.

 

VFL form is what you pick the team on when deciding if someone comes in though.

4 disposals, 0 marks, 0 goals doesn't deserve a call up. Simple as that.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Lord Nev

[old55 23,600]

1 minute ago, binman said:

Sure. But there is a lot more to forward half pressure than tackles

Looking at AFL Stats Pro Average pressure acts:

Weid 7, B.Brown 5.3

Brown is definitely low - maybe that's why he's out of the team. 

Weid is in reasonable company:

J.Kennedy 6.2, Taberner 6.2, J.Cameron 6.8, Hipwood 7.4

Luke Jackson leads the KPF category with 13.8

[Go the Biff 3,433]

49 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

Past form...current form....how much more current do want then Rd 7 & 8? I’ve simply asked you to remove the Carlton game from calculations as that is the one you keep referencing as to where Weid performed better than Brown. Based on our team structures when Jackson is in the side and both Brown and Weid have both had two games each without the other playing to put their case forward. I’ve asked you to compare those and you have chosen not to. I’m of the opinion based of the opinion that Brown did more in rounds 7 & 8 then Weids did in 10 & 11. So as for the anti Weid sentiment you are wrong, I think what you will find is what people are after is what you said earlier, and that is “we’ve waited so long to build a genuinely competitive culture and some want yo throw it out the window at first chance”. VFL form is one thing doing at the top is another. Brown has done more is his two games yet was dropped for his efforts.

 

The Carlton game to me is pivotal in the selection of Weid over Brown. It may be as simple as Weid being in the better physical nick of the two.

Given the current ticketing arrangements, I watched this game from a higher vantage point than I usually would. To my eye, while Brown covered a lot of ground, he did so very slowly. He has a strange running gait at the best of times, like a giraffe with sandbags on its feet but watching him try to work back inside 50 I kept wondering whether he was fit. Seemed to be labouring.

I'd be interested in getting the views of anyone who attended BBB's "shocker" for Casey. How was he moving ? Was he getting to dangerous positions ? Was he hitting back hard into the 50 ? It was a bit hard to tell from a single camera YouTube broadcast.

[binman 43,007]

Just now, Lord Nev said:

 

We don't pick the team based on form from 2-4 years ago. Would be a pretty different looking, and performing, team if we did.

 

Sure. But 3 games ago is ok isn't it?

Brown well against the swans and was an important factor in our win with key goals, strong marks and big aerial contests. He imposed himself on the game

Facts are that nothing weed has done since coming in had been at that level. He hadn't imposed himself at all. And of his 40 odd games I reckon I could count on one hand games has.  

So his 'merit',  such as it is all on potential. 

But let's leave it nev  Weed is in. And will likely stay in this week The coaches agree with you. So your case is strong

I sincerely hope he imposes himself against the lions and really puts it all together. 

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,396]

4 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

VFL form is what you pick the team on when deciding if someone comes in though.

4 disposals, 0 marks, 0 goals doesn't deserve a call up. Simple as that.

Please stop avoiding the question. 
 

Who did more in their two games without the other playing?

[Smokey 4,389]

1 minute ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

Please stop avoiding the question. 
 

Who did more in their two games without the other playing?

Weid I reckon. Depends on the metrics your applying 

[JimmyNurru 17]

1 minute ago, binman said:

Sure. But 3 games ago is ok isn't it?

Brown well against the swans and was an important factor in our win with key goals, strong marks and big aerial contests. He imposed himself on the game

Facts are that nothing weed has done since coming in had been at that level. He hadn't imposed himself at all. And of his 40 odd games I reckon I could count on one hand games has.  

So his 'merit',  such as it is all on potential. 

But let's leave it nev  Weed is in. And will likely stay in this week The coaches agree with you. So your case is strong

I sincerely hope he imposes himself against the lions and really puts it all together. 

If Weed improves his performance from previous years similar to many others in the team than he could be very good. Coaches gave Petty some time and I thought he was great on Friday. Seems to me  that coaching staff have a plan and they follow it. 

[Lord Nev 13,512]

2 minutes ago, binman said:

Sure. But 3 games ago is ok isn't it?

Brown well against the swans and was an important factor in our win with key goals, strong marks and big aerial contests. He imposed himself on the game

Facts are that nothing weed has done since coming in had been at that level. He hadn't imposed himself at all. And of his 40 odd games I reckon I could count on one hand games has.  

So his 'merit',  such as it is all on potential. 

But let's leave it nev  Weed is in. And will likely stay in this week The coaches agree with you. So your case is strong

I sincerely hope he imposes himself against the lions and really puts it all together. 

Simple as this, this year Weid is leading Brown in these categories:

Disposals, marks, tackles, contested marks & pressure acts.

Brown is ahead in goals by 0.7 per game.

So this 'potential' thing you're saying is the reason he's in is simply just not true.

I just think people are overreacting to Weid's performances thus far, he's clearly become the new whipping boy and everyone is suddenly expecting this 23 year old key forward to dominate or be traded. It's all a bit much tbh.

Needs to do better? Sure. But he's being judged against unrealistic expectations at the moment due to us having Brown on the list as well and people measuring 2021 Weid against 2017 Brown for some reason.

[Lord Nev 13,512]

6 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

Please stop avoiding the question. 
 

Who did more in their two games without the other playing?

Not sure why you're trying to be so selective and specific with your metrics? Is it maybe because you believe Brown was better in those specific games? Why ignore the broader context, because it doesn't suit your argument?

See my comment above. Weid leads Brown in all but 1 of the KPI's for a key forward this year.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Lord Nev

[binman 43,007]

6 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Not sure why you're trying to be so selective and specific with your metrics? Is it maybe because you believe Brown was better in those specific games? Why ignore the broader context, because it doesn't suit your argument?

See my comment above. Weid leads Brown in all but 1 of the KPI's for a key forward this year.

Sure nev, if you want to just read stats and not trust what your eyes tell you. 

And in my opinion  brown's swans game was far superior to anything weed has dished up this season. 

But it us ok if we disagree about that.

I can't speak for others  but I'm not judgint him against unrealistic expectations.

He is top 10 draft pick who should be delivering by this stage in his career. And he isn't.

Should he be dominating? Not every match, sure. But the occasional one yes. That's why we gave up a top 10 pick.

His peers are Naughton, Oscar Allen, Marshall. I want to se tbat level of output. 

And I want to see it now. He's had enough time. Time to deliver.

[Rab D Nesbitt 8,367]

My preference for the FF position is Ben Brown but irrespective of who plays that role I think it's worth keeping in mind that to a large extent key position forwards live or die by the service they get further up the ground and the quality of that is going to be higher in the seniors than at Casey. It's also misleading to compare the output of someone playing under a dome to a windswept outer suburban ground. The conditions over in Adelaide last week were also perfect. It could just as easily have been BB kicking two clutch goals on Friday night and Weids with the big fat doughnut down in Cranbourne the week before. 

[DeeSpencer 25,715]

4 hours ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

Except he plays 70% game time only and that’s not on a wing which requires a larger repeat sprint engine than the centre. Has the tools but not the endurance I suggest in saying that no one does so I suggest Baker in and Jordon spends some time there as well. 

Jordon’s the best endurance midfielder on the list. Won’t have Langdon’s freakish repeat speed but pure endurance won’t be an issue. His game time is low because he’s the 4th best on ball and the main 3 are handling the bulk of the duties.

[DeeSpencer 25,715]

12 minutes ago, binman said:

Sure nev, if you want to just read stats and not trust what your eyes tell you. 

And in my opinion  brown's swans game was far superior to anything weed has dished up this season. 

But it us ok if we disagree about that.

I can't speak for others  but I'm not judgint him against unrealistic expectations.

He is top 10 draft pick who should be delivering by this stage in his career. And he isn't.

Should he be dominating? Not every match, sure. But the occasional one yes. That's why we gave up a top 10 pick.

His peers are Naughton, Oscar Allen, Marshall. I want to se tbat level of output. 

And I want to see it now. He's had enough time. Time to deliver.

Agree Brown’s Swans game was the best we’ve seen from either of them and thought it would buy him more time. But I do think they’re in no hurry with Brown, they’ve got 11 weeks to get him right.

Disagree that the draft pick means anything at all anymore for Weid. It’s ancient history. 

The big thing I keep coming back to for Weid was the 9 game stretch when he came in to the team last year and was an above average AFL key forward. Multiple goals in every game. Contested marks. Halved a lot of contests. 10th in the best and fairest. If he plays like that he’ll keep his spot.

Sadly he doesn’t have the athleticism to contribute without marks and goals like a Todd Marshall. And isn’t doing the ruck minutes due to Jackson. And we don’t kick well enough to give our forwards easy chances. He has to crash and clunk to hold his spot. 

[Adam The God 30,261]

On 5/29/2021 at 12:10 AM, Jaded said:

Baker is a no for me. He is soft and poor defensively. Nobody will replace Ed’s shoelace let alone his running power. But the solution for me would be JJ to the wing and Sparrow to the guts. 

Agree on Baker. I wonder if Salem might be the better bet on the wing and JJ to the quarterback role Salem has been playing. 

That said, if they'd thought Salem was even a potential back up wingman they would have tried him there by now.

I hope JJs emergence as a clean, good decision maker allows us to play Salem up the ground a bit. If Salem's ball use can be utilised as the attacking winger it might be very dangerous for Brisbane.

Langdon often plays that wide receive role, just as Salem does, but Salem's contested game has improved and could offer something a little unpredictable against Brisbane.

I also don't mind @Nasher's suggestion of Hunt to the wing. My only questions about Hunt are not necessarily his ball use anymore, but his smarts, his positioning and spatial awareness. It would be nice to get him in the game a bit more though.

[layzie 33,814]

1 minute ago, A F said:

Agree on Baker. I wonder if Salem might be the better bet on the wing and JJ to the quarterback role Salem has been playing. 

That said, if they'd thought Salem was even a potential back up wingman they would have tried him there by now.

I hope JJs emergence as a clean, good decision maker allows us to play Salem up the ground a bit. If Salem's ball use can be utilised as the attacking winger it might be very dangerous for Brisbane.

Langdon often plays that wide receive role, just as Salem does, but Salem's contested game has improved and could offer something a little unpredictable against Brisbane.

I also don't mind @Nasher's suggestion of Hunt to the wing. My only questions about Hunt are not necessarily his ball use anymore, but his smarts, his positioning and spatial awareness. It would be nice to get him in the game a bit more though.

Don’t mind the idea at all actually. Would give us a lot in attack, Gus can do his negating job on the other side. If it’s not working we can always throw him back again.

Think it’s a good idea to get a little creative in times like this.

[Rab D Nesbitt 8,367]

In regards to the discussion about Oskar Baker if he's our designated backup for the wing position and we don't play him when the opportunity arises then surely you'd have to question why he's on our senior list. 

[manny100 1,565]

Baker likely choice. If we were not playing a top side Bowey might have been given a run with an option for wing or half back.

[Tarax Club 3,916]

To be fair both BBB and the Weid are behind the  ? due to injury and significantly disrupted pre- seasons,  compared to other blokes running around.
 

According to whatever DL fan club posters subscribe to, the alternative guy appears to be on a hiding to nothing. 
 

Both have shown some positive signs and made contributions to the overall team success.

Weid’s late third quarter mini-purple patch appeared to take some of the air out of the doggie’s tyres. Ch 7’s Brayshaw rightly called it as being significant in the context of the game.

BBB’s performance  V the swans at the G was promising and productive, with 3 goals kicked in a low scoring tight game. 
 
Both these blokes can improve. BBB’s mobility and Weed’s marking with both needing some more mongrel.
Not necessarily suggesting BBB go a rare T-bone ?  but Tom McDonald is a great  example of changing his approach.

In an interview earlier in the season he said marking improves as a season progresses as it would over a successful career.   

With competition for tall forward positions heating up, both players need to keep preparing and performing at their best to seize the opportunity when it arises. 
 
That’s surely a healthy situation for a team on the rise.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Tarax Club
Stop the ? from dripping out

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,396]

1 hour ago, Smokey said:

Weid I reckon. Depends on the metrics your applying 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

Not sure why you're trying to be so selective and specific with your metrics? Is it maybe because you believe Brown was better in those specific games? Why ignore the broader context, because it doesn't suit your argument?

See my comment above. Weid leads Brown in all but 1 of the KPI's for a key forward this year.

My metrics for a key forward primarily is taking marks and kicking goals. That’s what Brown did against the Swans in a tight game. We need to remember his first game against the North was not only his first game in a while, his first game for us and for a team that had come off a big win against the Tigers are were clearly flat.

Weid was quiet against the Crows and in the last qtr when the game was there to be won, didn’t touch the footy. Then went on to have one handball in the  first half against the dogs when the game was hot. Yes he kicked two goals in the third (and yes I celebrated them) but by then I believe we had control of the game.

I believe had Jackson not had gotten injured and we went in unchanged against Carlton Brown would have done more. But based on his poor showing for Casey Weideman stays in regardless of his output.

[Lord Nev 13,512]

12 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

My metrics for a key forward primarily is taking marks and kicking goals.

Weid leads Brown for marks and contested marks. Brown leads goals by 0.7.

To add context to that, none of Weid, TMac or Fritsch did much against the Crows where the midfield pressure was up and our delivery forward was horrible.

12 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

That’s what Brown did against the Swans in a tight game.

Weid's 2 goals against the Dogs came at a crucial time when the Dogs had kicked 3 of the last 4 goals and were starting to gather themselves.

You may want to note, like Weid in the Crows game, Brown had no impact in the last quarter against the Swans.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Lord Nev

[titan_uranus 25,020]

6 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

Or that Weid is more mobile and has a better tank than Brown? Given his Casey performance you have to wonder if he's still battling to be back to his peak fitness.

As DeeSpencer also mentioned, on the evidence so far it seems Weid and TMac get in each others way far less than Brown and TMac have. That could also be due to Weid's ability to spread more.

Highlighting those inside 50 stats just tells me Weid is covering more ground than Brown.

Yes but why is he covering that ground? Does the FD want Brown to cover that ground as well, and he's not capable of it? Or do they not care if Weid covers that ground but he finds himself doing it to try to get his hands on the ball more?

Either way I find it interesting.

Doesn't change the fact that right now Weid's got the spot and he's not going to lose it back to Brown until Brown's form improves.

But if Brown's form does improve, Weid's needs to improve.