Oliver has some great traits, but if he wants to go beyond being a talented player to being a superstar of the competition he has to have more impact on games. He came in all guns blazing year 1 with his work in close and his vision but he has plateaued. He needs to find another gear and greater consistency to be considered the among the best.

1 hour ago, Dr.D said:

Gets better? he is an AA and squad member.How about pointing the fingers on players that are actually [censored] like the McDonald brothers or the coach in Goodwin. And if anyone of the stars should be criticised it should be Viney who got caught holding the ball more time than Goodwin says 'learnings' or 'we gotta get better'

I'll reluctantly entertain you on this one Doc (even though I seriously wish you would just [censored] off to big footy, no offence, but please [censored] off to big footy). Do you seriously think Clarry has reached his ceiling? Do you not believe that he has the capacity to get any better?

I'd actually prefer it if you didn't answer and just [censored] off to big footy instead, but I'm sure you will come up with a way to avoid the the question at hand and just keep polluting these boards with your toxic garbage. I hope you feel satisfied with your life in that role. 

54 minutes ago, A F said:

It's not even a discussion for me. The guy is an out and out star. 

Would you trade him to Essendon for Zach Merrett and pick 6?

28 minutes ago, Skuit said:

Don't think that last part is fair at all. I think most of our coaches rate him as the greatest prospect they've ever encountered, according to just about everything I've ever read. But they've been driving him hard since day one, I think starting with McCartney (and to date he has responded well to that). I'll see if I can dig up an old training report - which if my memory is correct Nat Jones and others were tackling him harder and niggling him more than anyone else, trying to [censored] him off and testing his nerve.

He clearly performed better than Viney this year but I think they've set a high bar based on what he is capable of and expecting that he gets better. That's okay: just tell him that. Goodwin recently said he was the hardest working player he's ever come across - and I assume that means both throughout his playing and coaching career. Which is huge.

He was also a staunch defender when Clarry was getting criticized earlier this year. Hardly speaks of our coaches underrating or not appreciating him - just that they're employing tactics for him to get the best out of himself. If he feels that has been too harsh then we pull it in a bit - maybe like Trac - and tell him how important he is to us and what he can do to be better. Then give him that massive contract he wants and deserves. 

But hang on mate. If you agree that he clearly performed better than Viney and yet polled less FD votes, you're essentially backing up what I've said here. The coaches underrated him. McCartney is no longer there. Interesting. And despite Viney having a weaker season, you're saying the coaches still gave him more votes than Oliver because Oliver is capable of more? It doesn't make sense.

24 minutes ago, drdrake said:

I'm not a fan of trading him and I don't think we will, but losing a player isn't life or death of a team.  Buddy Franklin is an absolute super star he was at his peak when he left Hawthorn, he is a once in a generation type player not Oliver, Hawthorn got pick 19 ish for him and went on to win a flag with out him.  Oliver is a good midfielder, no match winner but can impact games, his biggest issue he just doesn't hurt teams by foot.  Doesn't kick goals, doesn't amass a big total of metres gained and I'm sure someone will correct me runs at about 70% handball to kick ratio.  He can be replaced like any other player on our list, we don't have any super stars.

Oliver will be at Melbourne next year. I'm talking about the end of 2021.

And Oliver and Franklin are not comparable. If Hawthorn had lost Sam Mitchell then I'd agree with you. They also wouldn't have won all those flags without him.

This post is an example of how Melbourne fans underrate Oliver. He hasn't missed a match since his first season. If he was out of our midfield, you'd see a distinctly weaker outfit.

25 minutes ago, binman said:

I guess it depends on how you are defining 'best''.

Schwarz was the best player i have seen at the dees outside of Flower, prior to his firsts knee injury. The only player to come close is Trac this year. So i would have Schwarz at the top of my list of bets platers at the dees in the last 33 years.

And even after his two knee injuries he was a star for us. And incredibly consistent. Barely played a poor game. Easy to forget he won the bluey in 1999 in a bloody goody team.

Don't get me wrong i agree Oliver is a star but personally i have Stynes, Nieta and max ahead of Oliver too and to be honest also, after this year Tracc too. That was the best season of football from a dees player since Nieta's in 1995.

Each to their own, mate. As I've said above, you'll notice how good Oliver is when he's not there, but because he plays every match, it's pretty hard to see.

I loved Schwarta. A unique talent, but I rate midfielders higher. Midfielders win premierships.

22 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I'm not reading every post in here but have I missed something? What has Viney said (or are you referring to the comments made when he re-signed about the players needing to get the best out of themselves?)

Yep, that's what I'm referring to. He said "just because of the way I have played my football and I suppose my attitude towards team-first football I have always been drawn to performing team roles." He might think it's team first to play rugby and Goodwin may love it, but 8 years in the system and still making our midfield run into each other.

Look everyone's tradable.

My starting position is Cripps, Weitering, McKay, Walsh, pick 7 and 2021 1st rounder.  Every day they don't accept add another player.

Am i doing it right Adrian?

Midfielders collectively win premierships. 

Players like dusty and trac win grand finals.

If the club had no choice but to trade on of Oliver or trac who do you think they would trade?

16 minutes ago, Better days ahead said:

Would you trade him to Essendon for Zach Merrett and pick 6?

No, no I wouldn't.

3 minutes ago, A F said:

 

Oliver will be at Melbourne next year. I'm talking about the end of 2021.

And Oliver and Franklin are not comparable. If Hawthorn had lost Sam Mitchell then I'd agree with you. They also wouldn't have won all those flags without him.

This post is an example of how Melbourne fans underrate Oliver. He hasn't missed a match since his first season. If he was out of our midfield, you'd see a distinctly weaker outfit.

Do you know what the difference between Mitchell and Oliver is, one can kick, one can't.

Buddy was an absolute superstar, all im highlighting is you can lose your stars and get over it.

Give me Buddy Franklin over any midfielder any day of the week.  

9 minutes ago, drdrake said:

Do you know what the difference between Mitchell and Oliver is, one can kick, one can't.

Buddy was an absolute superstar, all im highlighting is you can lose your stars and get over it.

Give me Buddy Franklin over any midfielder any day of the week.  

We'll agree to disagree then.

7 minutes ago, A F said:

No, no I wouldn't.

Neither would I. Clarry is on the verge of becoming an absolute A-grader. Keeping him is simply non-negotiable

The issue with Oliver is the way he takes the ball stationary or going backwards and gives off a 1m handball to a flat footed player actually hurts the team.

He has to improve his fundamentals - using his legs to drive forward, lifting his arms and drawing tackles before disposing, handballing to space and knowing when to kick and take ground.

He hasn’t been developed properly. So instead of becoming a superstar he’s just a solid A grade mid. It’s not too late to fix it, but it needs buy in from everyone involved. 

4 minutes ago, A F said:

But hang on mate. If you agree that he clearly performed better than Viney and yet polled less FD votes, you're essentially backing up what I've said here. The coaches underrated him. McCartney is no longer there. Interesting. And despite Viney having a weaker season, you're saying the coaches still gave him more votes than Oliver because Oliver is capable of more? It doesn't make sense.

Not like that at all mate. Just saying they likely set a higher bar for Clarry and expect more. Coaches put it on him and then judge his performance accordingly (I would probably be [censored] too, being held to a higher standard).

Though we all do the exact same thing on here - just check the D'land votes throughout the year (and also my advocacy of Clarry when he doesn't get a mention - clearly ahead of those getting votes). Viney does what he is capable of with in line with direct orders and gets the votes.

Clayton is capable of much much more than Jack and is being encouraged to reach his potential. It makes sense to me, especially in terms of our bnf voting system, where each player is awarded points out of ten for each game. 

26 minutes ago, Skuit said:

Not like that at all mate. Just saying they likely set a higher bar for Clarry and expect more. Coaches put it on him and then judge his performance accordingly (I would probably be [censored] too, being held to a higher standard).

Though we all do the exact same thing on here - just check the D'land votes throughout the year (and also my advocacy of Clarry when he doesn't get a mention - clearly ahead of those getting votes). Viney does what he is capable of with in line with direct orders and gets the votes.

Clayton is capable of much much more than Jack and is being encouraged to reach his potential. It makes sense to me, especially in terms of our bnf voting system, where each player is awarded points out of ten for each game. 

Skuit, by all means encourage Viney but I'm not quite sure when the B & F at a footy club became an encouragement award

 

1 hour ago, Better days ahead said:

Would you trade him to Essendon for Zach Merrett and pick 6?

In a heart beat! 

56 minutes ago, A F said:

No, no I wouldn't.

I would. If Carlton or any other team make a silly offer we should listen.

I think it’s dangerous for a club to think someone is untradable. Leads to poor list management decisions. I bet Collingwood wish they could have their time over again with Grundy. 7 years on big coin. He’s had a pretty indifferent season and now it looks like they’ll have to shed one of De Goey or Treloar because of cap issues when they could have had 2 first round picks from Adelaide. Same with Daniher last year. Absolute stupidity by Essendon not to trade him.

Clayton is a super player no question and I’d hate to lose him but he finished 5th in the BnF. He hasn’t had a great year by his standards and I don’t think that’s just because of coaching (although it definitely plays a part).

I’d offer him 3 years on top dollar. If we’re successful in that time he’ll re-sign and if we’re not then we should accommodate his wishes and allow him to find a new home if that’s what he wants to do.

1 hour ago, Demon Disciple said:

Neither would I. Clarry is on the verge of becoming an absolute A-grader. Keeping him is simply non-negotiable

He's not on the verge of becoming an A grader. He is an A grader. He's elite in all the categories that matter for an inside mid.

56 minutes ago, Skuit said:

Not like that at all mate. Just saying they likely set a higher bar for Clarry and expect more. Coaches put it on him and then judge his performance accordingly (I would probably be [censored] too, being held to a higher standard).

Though we all do the exact same thing on here - just check the D'land votes throughout the year (and also my advocacy of Clarry when he doesn't get a mention - clearly ahead of those getting votes). Viney does what he is capable of with in line with direct orders and gets the votes.

Clayton is capable of much much more than Jack and is being encouraged to reach his potential. It makes sense to me, especially in terms of our bnf voting system, where each player is awarded points out of ten for each game. 

I don't think rating him differently to others despite providing a better output is the way to get the best results out of players. That's just my opinion though.

13 minutes ago, Better days ahead said:

I would. If Carlton or any other team make a silly offer we should listen.

I think it’s dangerous for a club to think someone is untradable. Leads to poor list management decisions. I bet Collingwood wish they could have their time over again with Grundy. 7 years on big coin. He’s had a pretty indifferent season and now it looks like they’ll have to shed one of De Goey or Treloar because of cap issues when they could have had 2 first round picks from Adelaide. Same with Daniher last year. Absolute stupidity by Essendon not to trade him.

Clayton is a super player no question and I’d hate to lose him but he finished 5th in the BnF. He hasn’t had a great year by his standards and I don’t think that’s just because of coaching (although it definitely plays a part).

I’d offer him 3 years on top dollar. If we’re successful in that time he’ll re-sign and if we’re not then we should accommodate his wishes and allow him to find a new home if that’s what he wants to do.

Oliver is a better player than Merrett. So let's just start with that.

As for the idea that no player is untradeable. Sure, every player is tradeable then, but if you want to win flags you can't be trading away your very best players.

Midfielders are vital to winning premierships, so I don't particularly rate the idea that Franklin leaving Hawthorn didn't impact on their flag successes. Well, great, but he's not a midfielder. Franklin wouldn't get it without Sam Mitchell extracting. 

1 hour ago, Better days ahead said:

Would you trade him to Essendon for Zach Merrett and pick 6?

No.

Heard anything @dazzledavey36?

16 minutes ago, A F said:

I don't think rating him differently to others despite providing a better output is the way to get the best results out of players. That's just my opinion though.

I don't agree or disagree. But it's a fact of life that we're all judged according to what we're capable of, rather than in exact comparison to our peers. A couple university degrees taught me this pretty quickly, and I had to work much harder than most to maintain my grades. 

1 minute ago, Vineytime said:

Gary knows nothing and I can guarantee you that Melb and Carlton have spoken 

If Oliver were to leave that would be the end of this club

1 hour ago, Better days ahead said:

Would you trade him to Essendon for Zach Merrett and pick 6?

Well no, but yes