Isaac Smith

[defuture15 899]

Be able to train as a group.

Haven't had the opportunity through injury last year and covid this year.

[Farmer 883]

On 10/17/2020 at 8:06 AM, Dockett 32 said:

We used to have a desire for slow midgets. It seems our focus nowadays, is to fill up with moderate B grade midfielders, with little upside, on long contracts.

 

I don’t think Langdon can be classified as a moderate B grade midfielder. And our recruiting this year has been OUTSTANDING . When else have we recruited three 18yos who will be gun 200 game players ? And Langdon is already a star

[Nasher 33,616]

If we gave Smith a three year contract, he contributed strongly for a flag push for two seasons and had one season of pension padding, that is money extremely well spent in my eyes.

[Gator 17,361]

I concur with Nasher.

I must be one of the few Demonlanders that think we can salute in 2021.  And I genuinely do.

I see shades of Geelong 2006 and Richmond 2016 in this Melbourne side.  Not many clubs boast our top-end talent and plenty of the support cast are also quality.  What we lack is depth/role players.  And like Richmond did after 2016 we need to improve our ball movement/game-plan.

When I think of Isaac Smith ALL I'm concentrating on is the 2021 season.  Not 2022 or 2023, just 2021.  Which is why I'm not hung up on the terms of his contract.

He has at least two good years left so I couldn't care less if we offer him a third.  That's what you do to get a player to move club.  It's called an incentive.  

If we win a flag in 2021 do you think anyone will care that he came on a 3 year deal ?  Of course not.

So can I draw the conclusion that most reading my post think I'm delusional that we can win in 2021 ?  And I stress ''can'', not will or that we're even likely, but can.  Or is it the principle you're hanging on to re a three year deal ?

I want the team to get better, so if a better option than Smith is available then great, I'm all for it.  But if there's not a better option, and there's certainly not a better option presently residing on our list, then bring in Smith.  

True wingers are better if they're supplied by a good contested ball-winning midfield and that's what we have.  Smith has been hampered by relying on one of the worst midfields in the AFL these last couple of years.  He'll be far better served seeing out his career in the red and blue than Hawthorn.  And we'd be better for it as well.

[AaronDaveyChipsAndGravey 390]

56 minutes ago, Hannibal Inc. said:

I concur with Nasher.

I must be one of the few Demonlanders that think we can salute in 2021.  And I genuinely do.

I see shades of Geelong 2006 and Richmond 2016 in this Melbourne side.  Not many clubs boast our top-end talent and plenty of the support cast are also quality.  What we lack is depth/role players.  And like Richmond did after 2016 we need to improve our ball movement/game-plan.

When I think of Isaac Smith ALL I'm concentrating on is the 2021 season.  Not 2022 or 2023, just 2021.  Which is why I'm not hung up on the terms of his contract.

He has at least two good years left so I couldn't care less if we offer him a third.  That's what you do to get a player to move club.  It's called an incentive.  

If we win a flag in 2021 do you think anyone will care that he came on a 3 year deal ?  Of course not.

So can I draw the conclusion that most reading my post think I'm delusional that we can win in 2021 ?  And I stress ''can'', not will or that we're even likely, but can.  Or is it the principle you're hanging on to re a three year deal ?

I want the team to get better, so if a better option than Smith is available then great, I'm all for it.  But if there's not a better option, and there's certainly not a better option presently residing on our list, then bring in Smith.  

True wingers are better if they're supplied by a good contested ball-winning midfield and that's what we have.  Smith has been hampered by relying on one of the worst midfields in the AFL these last couple of years.  He'll be far better served seeing out his career in the red and blue than Hawthorn.  And we'd be better for it as well.

I dont think many on here would disagree that Smith is a solid short term option, and I'm also bullish on our chances to improve our ladder position next year, but to make the jump all the way to a premiership given how poorly we have performed over the last two years (both players and coaches) just doesn't seem in the equation in the time frame of Smith playing decent footy during his contract.

Yes teams have turned it around in the past, however on the back of really good off field direction and list decisions. Richmond recruited 3 walk up starters to their best 22 in Prestia, Nankervis and Caddy in the 2016 offseason (more than just role players) so it's a bit wishful thinking things are magically going to turn around purely on just game plan alone. Yes that 2nd wing position is a gaping hole that needs filling there's no doubt about it, but to sink salary into a 32 year old Smith for 3 years when we're already on the brink of the salary cap and jettisoning players left and right to make way for a player that maybe gets one-to-two decent seasons in just screams of desperation. It's just really difficult to get excited by this deal. 

I agree there certainly aren't better options on our list, but there are certainly better options out there (e.g. Phillips) that IMHO would be a much more sustainable option in terms of output and $. 

 

[old55 23,593]

1 hour ago, Hannibal Inc. said:

I concur with Nasher.

I must be one of the few Demonlanders that think we can salute in 2021.  And I genuinely do.

I see shades of Geelong 2006 and Richmond 2016 in this Melbourne side.  Not many clubs boast our top-end talent and plenty of the support cast are also quality.  What we lack is depth/role players.  And like Richmond did after 2016 we need to improve our ball movement/game-plan.

When I think of Isaac Smith ALL I'm concentrating on is the 2021 season.  Not 2022 or 2023, just 2021.  Which is why I'm not hung up on the terms of his contract.

He has at least two good years left so I couldn't care less if we offer him a third.  That's what you do to get a player to move club.  It's called an incentive.  

If we win a flag in 2021 do you think anyone will care that he came on a 3 year deal ?  Of course not.

So can I draw the conclusion that most reading my post think I'm delusional that we can win in 2021 ?  And I stress ''can'', not will or that we're even likely, but can.  Or is it the principle you're hanging on to re a three year deal ?

I want the team to get better, so if a better option than Smith is available then great, I'm all for it.  But if there's not a better option, and there's certainly not a better option presently residing on our list, then bring in Smith.  

True wingers are better if they're supplied by a good contested ball-winning midfield and that's what we have.  Smith has been hampered by relying on one of the worst midfields in the AFL these last couple of years.  He'll be far better served seeing out his career in the red and blue than Hawthorn.  And we'd be better for it as well.

Make it 3.

[titan_uranus 25,020]

20 minutes ago, AaronDaveyChipsAndGravey said:

I dont think many on here would disagree that Smith is a solid short term option, and I'm also bullish on our chances to improve our ladder position next year, but to make the jump all the way to a premiership given how poorly we have performed over the last two years (both players and coaches) just doesn't seem in the equation in the time frame of Smith playing decent footy during his contract.

Yes teams have turned it around in the past, however on the back of really good off field direction and list decisions. Richmond recruited 3 walk up starters to their best 22 in Prestia, Nankervis and Caddy in the 2016 offseason (more than just role players) so it's a bit wishful thinking things are magically going to turn around purely on just game plan alone. Yes that 2nd wing position is a gaping hole that needs filling there's no doubt about it, but to sink salary into a 32 year old Smith for 3 years when we're already on the brink of the salary cap and jettisoning players left and right to make way for a player that maybe gets one-to-two decent seasons in just screams of desperation. It's just really difficult to get excited by this deal. 

I agree there certainly aren't better options on our list, but there are certainly better options out there (e.g. Phillips) that IMHO would be a much more sustainable option in terms of output and $. 

"Jettisoning players left and right"?

WTF?

We're not Collingwood or GWS. Ridiculous way to describe our current list management strategy.

To get Caddy, Prestia and Nankervis in the door, they traded out Deledio, had Vickery walk out in FA, Chaplin retired, and they had Yarran leave too (plus four others went out the door). Not sure of Yarran's impact on their salary cap but it's not like they lost no one to bring on those three players you mentioned. They had 8 players leave at the end of 2016. Was that "jettisoning players left and right"?

And sure, Phillips might be a better option arguably than Smith, but no matter how optimistic or pessimistic you are, our list is primed to be challenging for a flag right now, not in 5 years. If we take Smith, the strategy is sound. 

[AaronDaveyChipsAndGravey 390]

Just now, titan_uranus said:

"Jettisoning players left and right"?

WTF?

We're not Collingwood or GWS. Ridiculous way to describe our current list management strategy.

To get Caddy, Prestia and Nankervis in the door, they traded out Deledio, had Vickery walk out in FA, Chaplin retired, and they had Yarran leave too (plus four others went out the door). Not sure of Yarran's impact on their salary cap but it's not like they lost no one to bring on those three players you mentioned. They had 8 players leave at the end of 2016. Was that "jettisoning players left and right"?

And sure, Phillips might be a better option arguably than Smith, but no matter how optimistic or pessimistic you are, our list is primed to be challenging for a flag right now, not in 5 years. If we take Smith, the strategy is sound. 

ANB, Oscar, Tmac, Hannan, Jetta, Preuss...already on top of the delistings of both Wagners, Dunkley, Bennell and the probable retirement of KK. Not saying all will go but has been strongly suggested most will be moved on, and I'm sure there may be a few others not to receive contracts either at the end of this period. I cannot recall us having a higher turnover of close to best 22 players in recent years, and the decisions seem to indicate we're trying to get our salary down to acquire higher quality players this period. 

I'd hardly say a 32 year old Isaac Smith is anywhere in the vicinity of how much better those 3 additions to Richmond made them. Vickery was a dud, Chaplin was old and Yarran was on the gear...Can't say they missed them much.

If our list was really primed to challenge for a flag, why are we perennially losing to decent sides, crucial games to cellar dwellers and finishing second last 2 years ago?  I get the argument to go all in while we still have the talented players we do at the right ages (Gawn, May, Trac etc.) which is why Smith makes sense, but I just think that Phillips would offer as much as Smith will for the right now and the distant future. 

[defuture15 899]

29 minutes ago, AaronDaveyChipsAndGravey said:

ANB, Oscar, Tmac, Hannan, Jetta, Preuss...already on top of the delistings of both Wagners, Dunkley, Bennell and the probable retirement of KK. Not saying all will go but has been strongly suggested most will be moved on, and I'm sure there may be a few others not to receive contracts either at the end of this period. I cannot recall us having a higher turnover of close to best 22 players in recent years, and the decisions seem to indicate we're trying to get our salary down to acquire higher quality players this period. 

I'd hardly say a 32 year old Isaac Smith is anywhere in the vicinity of how much better those 3 additions to Richmond made them. Vickery was a dud, Chaplin was old and Yarran was on the gear...Can't say they missed them much.

If our list was really primed to challenge for a flag, why are we perennially losing to decent sides, crucial games to cellar dwellers and finishing second last 2 years ago?  I get the argument to go all in while we still have the talented players we do at the right ages (Gawn, May, Trac etc.) which is why Smith makes sense, but I just think that Phillips would offer as much as Smith will for the right now and the distant future. 

I really think that the answer is lack of continuity over the past 2 years. Our backline has nearly gelled but we were hurt by injuries last year but this year we were hurt by not being able to train to our system. We were only able to train in line groups.

I think that we need 3 new players in our 22.

A key forward, a specialist winger and another top quality crumber.

I don't think that we are far off.

Edited October 18, 2020 by defuture15

[AaronDaveyChipsAndGravey 390]

I don't think we're miles off either, and nor do I think this is the worst move in the world. I'm just very hesitant in grabbing at something just because it's free and a quick fix for our problems. Realistically we'll be looking to fill this same void in a year or two which just seems a waste given theres a much younger, relatively inexpensive and walk up best 22 winger in Tom Phillips available. 

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

2 hours ago, Hannibal Inc. said:

I concur with Nasher.

I must be one of the few Demonlanders that think we can salute in 2021.  And I genuinely do.

I see shades of Geelong 2006 and Richmond 2016 in this Melbourne side.  Not many clubs boast our top-end talent and plenty of the support cast are also quality.  What we lack is depth/role players.  And like Richmond did after 2016 we need to improve our ball movement/game-plan.

When I think of Isaac Smith ALL I'm concentrating on is the 2021 season.  Not 2022 or 2023, just 2021.  Which is why I'm not hung up on the terms of his contract.

He has at least two good years left so I couldn't care less if we offer him a third.  That's what you do to get a player to move club.  It's called an incentive.  

If we win a flag in 2021 do you think anyone will care that he came on a 3 year deal ?  Of course not.

So can I draw the conclusion that most reading my post think I'm delusional that we can win in 2021 ?  And I stress ''can'', not will or that we're even likely, but can.  Or is it the principle you're hanging on to re a three year deal ?

I want the team to get better, so if a better option than Smith is available then great, I'm all for it.  But if there's not a better option, and there's certainly not a better option presently residing on our list, then bring in Smith.  

True wingers are better if they're supplied by a good contested ball-winning midfield and that's what we have.  Smith has been hampered by relying on one of the worst midfields in the AFL these last couple of years.  He'll be far better served seeing out his career in the red and blue than Hawthorn.  And we'd be better for it as well.

Perfectly stated.

 

[Skuit 10,031]

4 hours ago, Hannibal Inc. said:

I concur with Nasher.

I must be one of the few Demonlanders that think we can salute in 2021.  And I genuinely do.

Count me in too. I've outlined why I think we're on the verge of contention a few times before so I won't go over it all again, but the basic premise is a couple of disrupted seasons and ongoing immaturity have led us to perform below capabilities and now we face a changing of the guard from old leadership to new.

How quickly we transition from Jones, TMac, Jetta and Melksham e.g. to a Petracca and Oliver-driven team will determine how quickly we get there, and having another able-bodied senior best-22 is an important factor as well as plugging a wing for a year or two. Throw in a KPF of Brown's quality and some improved coaching ranks and the recipe is right. 

[Master Deebater 492]

4 hours ago, Hannibal Inc. said:

I concur with Nasher.

I must be one of the few Demonlanders that think we can salute in 2021.  And I genuinely do.

I see shades of Geelong 2006 and Richmond 2016 in this Melbourne side.  Not many clubs boast our top-end talent and plenty of the support cast are also quality.  What we lack is depth/role players.  And like Richmond did after 2016 we need to improve our ball movement/game-plan.

When I think of Isaac Smith ALL I'm concentrating on is the 2021 season.  Not 2022 or 2023, just 2021.  Which is why I'm not hung up on the terms of his contract.

He has at least two good years left so I couldn't care less if we offer him a third.  That's what you do to get a player to move club.  It's called an incentive.  

If we win a flag in 2021 do you think anyone will care that he came on a 3 year deal ?  Of course not.

So can I draw the conclusion that most reading my post think I'm delusional that we can win in 2021 ?  And I stress ''can'', not will or that we're even likely, but can.  Or is it the principle you're hanging on to re a three year deal ?

I want the team to get better, so if a better option than Smith is available then great, I'm all for it.  But if there's not a better option, and there's certainly not a better option presently residing on our list, then bring in Smith.  

True wingers are better if they're supplied by a good contested ball-winning midfield and that's what we have.  Smith has been hampered by relying on one of the worst midfields in the AFL these last couple of years.  He'll be far better served seeing out his career in the red and blue than Hawthorn.  And we'd be better for it as well.

Well put & agree.

If we can add B Brown and Phillips we'll be close

[Skuit 10,031]

1 hour ago, Skuit said:

Count me in too. I've outlined why I think we're on the verge of contention a few times before so I won't go over it all again . . . 

I forgot to add the main point of my post lol. I think how most of our trades will be judged this year on these boards will be highly dependent on each poster's perspective of where we sit on the 'premiership clock'. If you were of the mind that we had no hope of contending in the next two years then luring Smith would come across as completely idiotic.

[deanox 9,927]

 

4 hours ago, AaronDaveyChipsAndGravey said:

ANB, Oscar, Tmac, Hannan, Jetta, Preuss...already on top of the delistings of both Wagners, Dunkley, Bennell and the probable retirement of KK. 

...

I cannot recall us having a higher turnover of close to best 22 players in recent years,

...

Vickery was a dud, Chaplin was old and Yarran was on the gear...Can't say they missed them much.

...

We don't currently look like losing any best 18 players, let alone best 22. Of those you named, only ANB played in round 22, and it seems most people here want him gone anyway!

If we lose TMac and bring in Brown, lose Hannan and bring in Smith, we have just pushed Brown/Weiderman and Baker into the reserves, immediately making our team better.

 

We have a couple of quality senior players with a couple of years left (Gawn, May, Hibberd), and the middle 12 players in our best 22 will all have hit 100 games next year. We are either primed for a shot, or need to tear apart and rebuild. If this group haven't made it in the next two seasons, we are going to be doing some major list changes. 

[Kent 2,910]

13 hours ago, defuture15 said:

I really think that the answer is lack of continuity over the past 2 years. Our backline has nearly gelled but we were hurt by injuries last year but this year we were hurt by not being able to train to our system. We were only able to train in line groups.

I think that we need 3 new players in our 22.

A key forward, a specialist winger and another top quality crumber.

I don't think that we are far off.

you forgot an esteemed Psychiatrist to fix the mentals

[Kent 2,910]

Is there going to be a reserves competition next year?

[titan_uranus 25,020]

14 hours ago, AaronDaveyChipsAndGravey said:

ANB, Oscar, Tmac, Hannan, Jetta, Preuss...already on top of the delistings of both Wagners, Dunkley, Bennell and the probable retirement of KK. Not saying all will go but has been strongly suggested most will be moved on, and I'm sure there may be a few others not to receive contracts either at the end of this period. I cannot recall us having a higher turnover of close to best 22 players in recent years, and the decisions seem to indicate we're trying to get our salary down to acquire higher quality players this period. 

I'd hardly say a 32 year old Isaac Smith is anywhere in the vicinity of how much better those 3 additions to Richmond made them. Vickery was a dud, Chaplin was old and Yarran was on the gear...Can't say they missed them much.

If our list was really primed to challenge for a flag, why are we perennially losing to decent sides, crucial games to cellar dwellers and finishing second last 2 years ago?  I get the argument to go all in while we still have the talented players we do at the right ages (Gawn, May, Trac etc.) which is why Smith makes sense, but I just think that Phillips would offer as much as Smith will for the right now and the distant future. 

None of those first six players have gone yet, and although I'm sure Preuss will go and probably at least two more, it's hardly "jettisoning". Remember, it doesn't look like we want to trade Preuss or Jetta (any rumblings around those players come from the players, not from the club).

Funny that when Richmond lose players, they're "dud" or "old". Yet when we do, they're "close to best 22". "Close to" means "not really".

And as to Smith, he's proven more in his career to date than Caddy or Nankervis had to the point where Richmond brought them in. The only key difference is he's nearly 32. I understand the risk that we take a 32-year old and his body breaks down, and if we can bring Phillips in then I'm all for it, but if he's not available or we can't afford him (bearing in mind we'd have to trade for Phillips but Smith is a FA) then Smith makes sense.

[DeeZee 7,397]

Now is our time.

We have to recruit for having a tilt at the flag over the next two years.

Move on the not quite rights.
Bring in what we need and what will make us harder to play against.

 Age or cost, to a certain extent has no bearing .
At some stage you have to pull the trigger.

[Kent 2,910]

8 minutes ago, DeeZee said:

Now is our time.

We have to recruit for having a tilt at the flag over the next two years.

Move on the not quite rights.
Bring in what we need and what will make us harder to play against.

 Age or cost, to a certain extent has no bearing .
At some stage you have to pull the trigger.

So what happened last year?

Did we not advise we were already in the final window?

We completely over rated our list from 2018 particularly our bottom 10 players

Now we start again Geesus!

Who on here thought OMac and ANB were going to make it and a few others

Very poor strategy from the footy department in my opinion

We wasted 2 years hanging on waiting for them to come good. This in conjunction with a game plan that didnt suit our players meant a poor season again.

Oh well as many on here say 'There is always next year!'

[DeeZee 7,397]

20 minutes ago, Kent said:

So what happened last year?

Did we not advise we were already in the final window?

We completely over rated our list from 2018 particularly our bottom 10 players

Now we start again Geesus!

Who on here thought OMac and ANB were going to make it and a few others

Very poor strategy from the footy department in my opinion

We wasted 2 years hanging on waiting for them to come good. This in conjunction with a game plan that didnt suit our players meant a poor season again.

Oh well as many on here say 'There is always next year!'

Not starting again no.

Just adding the final pieces, a power forward and another winger.

We under achieved last year, with two players in the top ten in the Brownlow, 3 in the top 15 in the league in most awards.

We will be ripe next year you watch.

Edited October 18, 2020 by DeeZee

[AaronDaveyChipsAndGravey 390]

10 hours ago, deanox said:

 

We don't currently look like losing any best 18 players, let alone best 22. Of those you named, only ANB played in round 22, and it seems most people here want him gone anyway!

If we lose TMac and bring in Brown, lose Hannan and bring in Smith, we have just pushed Brown/Weiderman and Baker into the reserves, immediately making our team better.

 

We have a couple of quality senior players with a couple of years left (Gawn, May, Hibberd), and the middle 12 players in our best 22 will all have hit 100 games next year. We are either primed for a shot, or need to tear apart and rebuild. If this group haven't made it in the next two seasons, we are going to be doing some major list changes. 

I agree with all of that and I'm not trying to suggest that the players that we're getting rid of make our best 22 any better, the point I've been trying to make is that the club is moving around a lot more pieces than usual this time of year and it seems a high price to pay for helping squeeze in 32 year old wingers. I just cannot recall that many players being linked with moves away from our club. Of course not all are going to be let go, but a fair few of these rumours seem fairly legitimate.

When the bottom falls out of your club it can cause a whole number of problems. What happens if we run into a period of injuries? Where's the pressure coming for spots? All the players I mentioned have had multiple game spells in the side so they're not all plodders. The good teams seem to have an abundance of decent depth players ready to step up, and sure a Mitch Brown and Oscar Baker would get pushed back as depth, but I'd be hesitant in losing a lot of these guys to get 1 good year out of an Isaac Smith.

[defuture15 899]

2 hours ago, Kent said:

you forgot an esteemed Psychiatrist to fix the mentals

The supporters should have a few recommendations!

[Clintosaurus 7,849]

Every club has NQRs. It is about getting them to operate at the best plodding level as often as possible. Like people not up to the job in the workplace - if you can't sack them, just get the best out of them as much as you can.

[drdrake 3,178]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

So what happened last year?

Did we not advise we were already in the final window?

We completely over rated our list from 2018 particularly our bottom 10 players

Now we start again Geesus!

Who on here thought OMac and ANB were going to make it and a few others

Very poor strategy from the footy department in my opinion

We wasted 2 years hanging on waiting for them to come good. This in conjunction with a game plan that didnt suit our players meant a poor season again.

Oh well as many on here say 'There is always next year!'

I think the club banked on Tmac and Weiderman holding down the key forward postions.  The club went and strengthened our back line bring in Lever and May, then our front 6 became totally dysfunctional, even in 2019 most games we won the inside 50 count, we had some big numbers going in just is was garbage entries and not forward standing up.

I think we need to work out our priorities, Isaac Smith doesn't overly excite me but he will bring a senior mentor into our club that has been in a good system.  Give up no picks for him which is a bonus.  What concerns me though will our forward 6 with Weiderman and Jackson as the 2 main key targets with Melksham, Pickett, Fritsch and the other forwards be able to kick enough goals.  Adding Brown may help this but he is very much a hit up forward not a bash and crash forward.