Preferred Midfield Mix

[Adam The God 29,356]

Hi all. If one of the mods thinks this might be better in one of the other threads, feel free to merge. It feels like it needs its own thread though to me.

I want to discuss what people's preferred midfield mix is given IMV, we haven't been able to get the balance right now for at least 3 years or longer.

Everyone talks about the need for outside pace and delivery, better ball users, better structures or whatever.

But I want to talk purely about personnel here, because if we think back to the only time our midfield has truly clicked under Goodwin (outside of a patch in 2017 when we didn't have Gawn and became less predictable in a good way...), and we saw exponential growth in a number of players, was the middle of 2018.

The starting mids at that time were a mixture of Oliver, Gus and Harmes. Jones had moved to the half back flank by then. So had Lewis. Viney was out injured and we saw Harmes' growth as a run with mid. Gus worked nicely as an inside/outside mid that would often receive handballs from Oliver and then clear with reasonable accuracy and distance. It was a predictable mixture for our forwards too.

By the time the finals series came, Viney was back and played midfield minutes and was brilliant in the finals series, I thought. Our pressure was the highest it's been from the forwards and the mids, and the system was implementable for two weeks IMV.

There are a multitude of factors as to why 2019 was an unacceptable shambles, however we began the reset this year and let alone the forward delivery being a carbon copy of the issues experienced in 2019, it's pretty clear we haven't got the midfield mix right this year either. Even in the 3.5 quarters that we played against Hawthorn, easily our best match, we wasted, IMV, Gus and Harmes, who were probably easily in the bottom 5 for me in that game.

The other element that has thrown out our midfield mix is the rise of Petracca this year in particular. Last year the stats said he was playing 30/70% mid/forward, this year, those stats are reversed and rightly so. He's an impact player in the mould of Dustin Martin.

So how to get the best of out of our midfield? I've read multiple posts calling for Oliver to move forward, because Viney can't play anywhere else, because Petracca is so dominant you need him in the middle etc, and I've argued you fix the systems to better utilise the talents you have, not move the magnets.

However, IMV, our most balanced and damaging midfield combination is Oliver, Petracca and Gus, with Harmes filling in their midfield minutes when off or forward. Langdon has been a good recruit, despite what some think, and will become a very important player for us. Particularly, on the expanses of the MCG in years to come. He needs to fix up his disposal, but he'll get there. I'd also be playing Tomlinson on the other wing. Use his aerobic power and abilities to stretch the opposition and their zones.

So where does that leave Viney? Someone posted the other day, I can't remember who (sorry), that Viney throws out our midfield mix. I think it was you @rjay? I tend to agree. And whilst he loves the club and is a bull, he's too see ball get ball, but if he doesn't win the ball, often it's going down the other end.

This isn't a case of Viney improving his defensive accountability. He's not necessarily bad in that department, it's just his style bashes and crashes the midfield mix to a point where he upsets Oliver and Petracca's cleaner clearances and the makes our midfield less predictable to our forwards. This impacts on forward connection IMO.

At the end of last year, I wrote here that I'd be trading either Gus or Viney, because both players have difficulty slotting in anywhere else. And despite Jack having a very solid season, he's the one I'd be trading. Not to mention, we'd probably be well compensated for him (and could look to trade it for Ben King), I think we had an A grade midfield for the majority of 2018 and we've never recaptured that since Viney has returned to the mix.

In the meantime, I'd be playing Viney at half forward in AVB's pressure role, but I'd take the majority of his midfield minutes away from him. A tough, bold call, but we need to need recapture the 2018 form and the common denominator of success that season was the midfield mix I've described above. It's quite possible that the circuit-breaker of a new coach is needed to implement this, otherwise Goodwin, in order to save his job, must reshuffle.

Discuss.

Edited August 3, 2020 by A F

[Ted Lasso 18,780]

Best midfield mix for me is 

Oliver, Brayshaw and Petracca at center bounces. 

Harmes rotating through adds a little bit more pace. 

I feel Viney unfortunately upsets the system and as much as he's a great Melbourne person, name and individual player. the overall result is a worse off team because of how he plays. 

unless he drastically changes his game style i can't see us winning a flag with Jack Viney. 

[Little Richard 6,213]

Concur with Patches that Oliver, Brayshaw and Petracca is the best combination in the centre. I'd love to see more of Harmes but I also feel that Viney adds tenacity that none of the others can replicate. It's just unfortunate that he's extremely one-dimensional. 

Agree that there's a good chance we'll see one of our inside mids traded at the end of the year and it'll probably be one of Harmes or Brayshaw IMO.

[rjay 24,593]

13 minutes ago, A F said:

So where does that leave Viney? Someone posted the other day, I can't remember who (sorry), that Viney throws out our midfield mix. I think it was you @rjay? I tend to agree. And whilst he loves the club and is a bull, he's too see ball get ball, but if he doesn't win the ball, often it's going down the other end.

This isn't a case of Viney improving his defensive accountability. He's not necessarily bad in that department, it's just his style bashes and crashes the midfield mix to a point where he upsets Oliver and Petracca's cleaner clearances and the makes our midfield less predictable to our forwards. This impacts on forward connection IMO.

Yep, was me.

I think Jack needs to modify his game if he's to be of value to us.

He needs to learn how to play in a team environment.

Our midfield is not so much one dimensional as it is too individual focussed.

We don't run a team midfield.

Jack is one of the problems here but the bigger issue is the coaches have done nothing to fix it.

...and in their wisdom they have left the wrong player out in the cold...Gus.

Viney and Oliver shouldn't be in the square together.

Gus, Trac & Oliver with Harmes and Viney to be an impact player...

 

[Ted Lasso 18,780]

5 minutes ago, rjay said:

Yep, was me.

I think Jack needs to modify his game if he's to be of value to us.

He needs to learn how to play in a team environment.

Our midfield is not so much one dimensional as it is too individual focussed.

We don't run a team midfield.

Jack is one of the problems here but the bigger issue is the coaches have done nothing to fix it.

...and in their wisdom they have left the wrong player out in the cold...Gus.

Viney and Oliver shouldn't be in the square together.

Gus, Trac & Oliver with Harmes and Viney to be an impact player...

 

To add to this, i think this is exactly why we clicked in the 2018 finals, because we were forced into having a team midfield.

Brayshaw added the inside/outside class, Oliver could focus on his best quality, winning the ball and distributing and Harmes was a tagger who could get 20 himself and get forward and score. 

much better balance. 

[Gawndog98 307]

I believe we can only play 4 of Oliver, Viney, Petracca, Brayshaw, Harmes. In my opinion Oliver and Viney can't play in the same side together because they are both instinctively handball first players, they often put each other under pressure when they should be clearing the ball forward. Brayshaw's first instinct is to kick the ball, this is why Oliver and Brayshaw work well together I believe. 

My preferred midfield mix would be Oliver, Brayshaw, Harmes, and Petracca with Langdon, Tomlinson, and Vanders on the wings. Goody please just let Harmes go back to being a tagger, genuinely had such a big impact in this role in 2018 as he not only negated the best oppo mid but also kicked goals on them. Like Dusty, Petracca should be a forward half mid as he such a big impact up forward as well. This allows Oliver and Brayshaw to roam the full ground and then rotate for Petracca forward when they need a break. We then just need our outside mids to be solid, all of them have pretty good defensive accountability and cover the ground very well. 

Very harsh but I would leave Viney out of the side. I love everything he's done for the club and his passion on the field, but the hard truth is that he just doesn't function well with the other mids at our disposal. I think we have a real opportunity to get good value for him this off season. If we let him walk as a free agent this off season it gives a massive chance to chase a big name in a position of need with that free'd up 600-700k that i'd imagine he would command. Not only do we get free'd up salary cap space we would also most likely get a first round compensation pick due to the size of his contract an opposition club gives him, which would fall the next pick after our first round pick (which belongs to north), which looks like a top 10 pick. The obvious player to go after with the cap space is Zac Williams, as he would cost nothing being a free agent and fill a massive need for us with his linebreaking speed and kicking off half back, and is very good defensively. Joe Daniher is the only other free agent I'd look at but I believe Weid's development this year has been good enough that we don't need him. If we can't get Williams i'd be looking to trade the first round compensation pick for Viney for a similar style player. Harry Perryman, Rory Laird, Jordan Ridley all players i'd be looking at. If we could somehow bundle up a package for Josh Kelly that would be the big one.

[Lucifers Hero 38,982]

43 minutes ago, A F said:

And despite Jack having a very solid season, he's the one I'd be trading.

Just a technicality: He is an RFA so no need to trade - a club could have him 'free' and we get a comp draft pick.  He could land us a 1st round or at worst an end of 1st round pick.  He is probably our best chance of getting back into the top 20 the draft or to use the pick to trade in a top player.  He will also free up the cap space required for said top player.

It will break his heart tho and that of many fans ?  His ole best mate Ollie is in the same boat (but not an FA) so sentimentality is not a reason to improve the team and set it up for the oft talked about 'sustained success'.

Edit:  just say @Gawndog98post with similar sentiments.  Snap!

Edited August 3, 2020 by Lucifer's Hero

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,283]

I was chatting with a good mate of mine and we both believe that in every centre bounce we need 2 more inside players and 1 more outside player.

Our thoughts on rotations would be:

Inside mids - Viney, Oliver, Petracca & Harmes

More outside - Brayshaw, Salem, Pickett, Melksham & Bennell

We are too predictable so I would like to see more variety in our centre bounces

[Ouch! 2,205]

Not posting to disagree with comments above, but other than Petracca obviously, I feel Viney moreso than Oliver and Brayshaw in 2020 has actually adapted his game and is showing improvement in his craft. He is looking around and lowering his eyes, and is probably showing more of a team first vibe. He seems to push forward a little more than in previous years and seems more attacking. I haven't seen that same growth in Oliver, Brayshaw or Harmes this year, not that using 2020 is a good yardstick with everything going on.

Lets remember Viney lost the captaincy, and I think that was a good move by the club, and it was obviously a painful experience for him. That said, I think he's showing some maturity in his game, he's getting continuity from having a fit body and has grown off field.

The other thing to point out here is that you have more than 3 midfielders that rotate through the midfield in a game, I am not disagreeing that Oliver and Viney seem to be vying for the same role and therefore we are not as strong when they both are in at the feet of Gawn. 

Out of any of our midfielders, Brayshaw feels the most likely to go elsewhere for opportunities, with Freo an obvious connection with the family. 

Good topic!

[BW511 2,569]

I think Oliver and Trac pick themselves, after that it's a raffle depending on form.

None of the rest are very confidence inspiring and highlight our lack of depth and lack of A-grade talent.

Edit: Even though there are differences in their respective game styles, our whole group is quite similar. At the moment we are very easy to defend because of the sameness through the midfield group. That becomes a lot more difficult if you had 3 very different players at Gawn's feet. We lack leg speed and breakaway running ability.

What about a Langdon or a Bennell every now and again to mix it up, in much the same way that Hogan used to go in and create a very different dynamic. Guarantee an opposition mid wiould change their mentality enormously if they were stood next to Bennell at a centre bounce

2nd Edit: I think the stubborness is the real issue. We keep fronting up with the same thing and teams are ready for it.

Edited August 3, 2020 by BW511

[Adam The God 29,356]

12 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Just a technicality: He is an RFA so no need to trade - a club could have him 'free' and we get a comp draft pick.  He could land us a 1st round or at worst an end of 1st round pick.  He is probably our best chance of getting back into the top 20 the draft or to use the pick to trade in a top player.  He will also free up the cap space required for said top player.

It will break his heart tho and that of many fans ?  His ole best mate Ollie is in the same boat (but not an FA) so sentimentality is not a reason to improve the team and set it up for the oft talked about 'sustained success'.

Edit:  just say @Gawndog98post with similar sentiments.  Snap!

Indeed. I meant let him walk as a RFA.

I wouldn't bother going to the draft with a compo pick. I would trade it for Ben King give him most of Jack's salary.

[Adam The God 29,356]

20 minutes ago, Ouch! said:

Not posting to disagree with comments above, but other than Petracca obviously, I feel Viney moreso than Oliver and Brayshaw in 2020 has actually adapted his game and is showing improvement in his craft. He is looking around and lowering his eyes, and is probably showing more of a team first vibe. He seems to push forward a little more than in previous years and seems more attacking. I haven't seen that same growth in Oliver, Brayshaw or Harmes this year, not that using 2020 is a good yardstick with everything going on.

Lets remember Viney lost the captaincy, and I think that was a good move by the club, and it was obviously a painful experience for him. That said, I think he's showing some maturity in his game, he's getting continuity from having a fit body and has grown off field.

The other thing to point out here is that you have more than 3 midfielders that rotate through the midfield in a game, I am not disagreeing that Oliver and Viney seem to be vying for the same role and therefore we are not as strong when they both are in at the feet of Gawn. 

Out of any of our midfielders, Brayshaw feels the most likely to go elsewhere for opportunities, with Freo an obvious connection with the family. 

Good topic!

Don't get me wrong on Jack either. I think he's a good player and would do well at another club. I'd also agree he's developed his game to lower the eyes more, but there was a passage of play that stuck out for me against Brisbane. Jack and Petracca both went for the same ball, Jack ended up trying to run away with it but looked up and our players were all out of position. 

I know it's unfair to give one example, but his instinct is always to go for the ball, never wait on the outside for the handball, whereas Oliver has this decision making in his game.

I think it'll be a win win for all concerned if Jack moves on, although tough for us supporters. 

Edited August 3, 2020 by A F

[DeeSpencer 24,730]

Richmond model:
6 mids who can rotate on ball. 3 of which can comfortably play forward, 2 of which can go on to the wing if needed.

Martin - Petracca. 60% mids, 30% forward. The superstar. Hunts the ball and dominates. 
Cotchin - Viney. 55% mid, 25% forward. The captain. Sets the tone with pressure and physicality.
Prestia - Oliver. 70% mid +/- 10% forward. The pure ball winner.
Edwards - ????? Bennell??? Pickett??? Salem? Rivers? Melksham?. 45% ball, 10% wing, 20% forward. The class. 
Lambert - Harmes. 40% mid, 30% forward. The runner. Contest to contest never stops motoring.
Graham/Pickett --- ??Brayshaw (Sparrow/Jordon options here as well) 30% ball, 40% wing. The depth.

Viney is crucial on ball, he has a burst of speed to hunt down opposition and also the ability to get the ball out the front of the contest. I don't believe we are better off without him, we just need to get the balance right around him that sees him play a bigger role with less of the ball and less time on ball too!

Oliver has to adjust his game as well. Or to put it simply he just has to play better!

The biggest change though is to get another classy creative player in the mix for when Petracca comes out. Someone with speed, creativity and smarts. As soon as Edwards went out of the Tigers team they moved Shai Bolton on ball to make sure they still had that skill element.

I can see the case for an expanded role for Brayshaw instead of Viney based on 2018. However, whilst I appreciate Gus' hands and ability to get the handball receives he butchers his kicks too much and is also a liability defensively. I still believe in Oliver, Petracca, Viney as a great starting point if we could just add one classy user to compliment them and then get small but steady improvements from Jack and Clarry. Viney's already made huge leaps in the last month and is largely looking up and picking targets rather than panicking.

[Ham 741]

Viney over Brayshaw in the midfield, everyday of the week. 

[DeeSpencer 24,730]

23 minutes ago, A F said:

Indeed. I meant let him walk as a RFA.

I wouldn't bother going to the draft with a compo pick. I would trade it for Ben King give him most of Jack's salary.

At least 3 issues with that plan:

1. Viney isn't getting us first round compo, plus you'd have to add another first to pick 5 just to get the Suns remotely interested
2. Ben King is happy at the Suns - he wants to be his own man out of Max's shadow -  and if he isn't why would he choose us?
3. If you believe the strong rumours last year the Suns already backed up the cash truck big time and signed King on 700+, he'll make more than Viney next year.

 

[BW511 2,569]

5 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Richmond model:
6 mids who can rotate on ball. 3 of which can comfortably play forward, 2 of which can go on to the wing if needed.

Martin - Petracca. 60% mids, 30% forward. The superstar. Hunts the ball and dominates. 
Cotchin - Viney. 55% mid, 25% forward. The captain. Sets the tone with pressure and physicality.
Prestia - Oliver. 70% mid +/- 10% forward. The pure ball winner.
Edwards - ????? Bennell??? Pickett??? Salem? Rivers? Melksham?. 45% ball, 10% wing, 20% forward. The class. 
Lambert - Harmes. 40% mid, 30% forward. The runner. Contest to contest never stops motoring.
Graham/Pickett --- ??Brayshaw (Sparrow/Jordon options here as well) 30% ball, 40% wing. The depth.

That is a ripping example of exactly what we lack.

Richmond have a host of mids (As do West Coast/GWS/Port) that can all play multiple positions. Vast majority of our list is one-dimensional, we can't rotate the mids through HFF because our flankers can't play anywhere else, similar with our forward pocket players.

West Coast have a great and complementary group also - Yeo, Shuey, Kelly, Cripps, Gaff, Sheed all have no issues running through the centre square and there would be a couple of younger guys i'm not familiar with also.

 

[Adam The God 29,356]

13 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

At least 3 issues with that plan:

1. Viney isn't getting us first round compo, plus you'd have to add another first to pick 5 just to get the Suns remotely interested
2. Ben King is happy at the Suns - he wants to be his own man out of Max's shadow -  and if he isn't why would he choose us?
3. If you believe the strong rumours last year the Suns already backed up the cash truck big time and signed King on 700+, he'll make more than Viney next year.

Let's see. It might be pie in the sky, the main point is let's see how the midfield operates without Jack.

I wonder how tight Jack is with Goodwin and why Todd's retirement fits in with all of this.

[Adam The God 29,356]

46 minutes ago, BW511 said:

I think Oliver and Trac pick themselves, after that it's a raffle depending on form.

None of the rest are very confidence inspiring and highlight our lack of depth and lack of A-grade talent.

Edit: Even though there are differences in their respective game styles, our whole group is quite similar. At the moment we are very easy to defend because of the sameness through the midfield group. That becomes a lot more difficult if you had 3 very different players at Gawn's feet. We lack leg speed and breakaway running ability.

What about a Langdon or a Bennell every now and again to mix it up, in much the same way that Hogan used to go in and create a very different dynamic. Guarantee an opposition mid wiould change their mentality enormously if they were stood next to Bennell at a centre bounce

2nd Edit: I think the stubborness is the real issue. We keep fronting up with the same thing and teams are ready for it.

I don't mind this idea.

The point is I believe we have the players, it's just a matter of utilising them in the most potent way.

[Lord Travis 10,458]

22 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Richmond model:
6 mids who can rotate on ball. 3 of which can comfortably play forward, 2 of which can go on to the wing if needed.

Martin - Petracca. 60% mids, 30% forward. The superstar. Hunts the ball and dominates. 
Cotchin - Viney. 55% mid, 25% forward. The captain. Sets the tone with pressure and physicality.
Prestia - Oliver. 70% mid +/- 10% forward. The pure ball winner.
Edwards - ????? Bennell??? Pickett??? Salem? Rivers? Melksham?. 45% ball, 10% wing, 20% forward. The class. 
Lambert - Harmes. 40% mid, 30% forward. The runner. Contest to contest never stops motoring.
Graham/Pickett --- ??Brayshaw (Sparrow/Jordon options here as well) 30% ball, 40% wing. The depth.

This is basically what I've been banging on about here for a few years now. We need more rounded players in our midfield. We have too many pure inside ball winning mids. Top teams mids are more versatile, and the balance in their midfield is more even. Richmond as the example here have Martin, Cotchin, Edwards, Lambert all play significant forward minutes. We need to do similar with Oliver, Brayshaw, Harmes, Petracca. All four can contribute up forward, but are rarely played there (Trac aside).

54 minutes ago, Action Jackson said:

I was chatting with a good mate of mine and we both believe that in every centre bounce we need 2 more inside players and 1 more outside player.

Our thoughts on rotations would be:

Inside mids - Viney, Oliver, Petracca & Harmes

More outside - Brayshaw, Salem, Pickett, Melksham & Bennell

We are too predictable so I would like to see more variety in our centre bounces

This is a basic strategy would should be adopting. Richmond, again as the example, often have Edwards, Lambert, Stack, Mcintosh, Rioli etc in at centre bounces to give them a point of difference and become less predictable. Though they're not a huge clearance team, when they do win clearances they're usually more damaging than the bang it long in hope type clearances we win en masse. They spread from the contest and use good decision making and disposal skills to either hit a target inside 50 or score. We just bomb it long without looking and watch it come right back out as quickly as it entered. The fact we have the best tap ruckman in the game feeding our mids for bugger all advantage is an indictment  on the coaching staff and midfield. It should be quality of entires into 50, not quantity of entries.

For me, I don't think we have the right players on the list to ultimately be successful. I've been vocal that we need to trade/cast some out to get in more rounded players so we can improve our midfield in all facets of the game. For the rest of this year, I'd like to see something similar to what Action Jackson mentioned. I do not want to see more than two inside mids at any given centre bounce. The others need to play forward or back and start contributing in other ways. The Petracca/Oliver/Viney/Brayshaw/Harmes centre bounce groups win lots of clearances and contested ball, but are ultimately ineffective in generating quality scoring opportunities and winning matches.

[BW511 2,569]

I'm sure everyone has seen the Nic Nat and Josh Kennedy set play from the weekend, wouldn't it be great if our midfield coaches and players could engineer that sort of play. We are not disciplined enough or team orientated enough to create those chances for another player. This isn't strictly midfield related, but with Gawny's dominance it should be a real power of ours

[YesitwasaWin4theAges 6,537]

2 hours ago, A F said:

Hi all. If one of the mods thinks this might be better in one of the other threads, feel free to merge. It feels like it needs its own thread though to me.

I want to discuss what people's preferred midfield mix is given IMV, we haven't been able to get the balance right now for at least 3 years or longer.

Everyone talks about the need for outside pace and delivery, better ball users, better structures or whatever.

But I want to talk purely about personnel here, because if we think back to the only time our midfield has truly clicked under Goodwin (outside of a patch in 2017 when we didn't have Gawn and became less predictable in a good way...), and we saw exponential growth in a number of players, was the middle of 2018.

The starting mids at that time were a mixture of Oliver, Gus and Harmes. Jones had moved to the half back flank by then. So had Lewis. Viney was out injured and we saw Harmes' growth as a run with mid. Gus worked nicely as an inside/outside mid that would often receive handballs from Oliver and then clear with reasonable accuracy and distance. It was a predictable mixture for our forwards too.

By the time the finals series came, Viney was back and played midfield minutes and was brilliant in the finals series, I thought. Our pressure was the highest it's been from the forwards and the mids, and the system was implementable for two weeks IMV.

There are a multitude of factors as to why 2019 was an unacceptable shambles, however we began the reset this year and let alone the forward delivery being a carbon copy of the issues experienced in 2019, it's pretty clear we haven't got the midfield mix right this year either. Even in the 3.5 quarters that we played against Hawthorn, easily our best match, we wasted, IMV, Gus and Harmes, who were probably easily in the bottom 5 for me in that game.

The other element that has thrown out our midfield mix is the rise of Petracca this year in particular. Last year the stats said he was playing 30/70% mid/forward, this year, those stats are reversed and rightly so. He's an impact player in the mould of Dustin Martin.

So how to get the best of out of our midfield? I've read multiple posts calling for Oliver to move forward, because Viney can't play anywhere else, because Petracca is so dominant you need him in the middle etc, and I've argued you fix the systems to better utilise the talents you have, not move the magnets.

However, IMV, our most balanced and damaging midfield combination is Oliver, Petracca and Gus, with Harmes filling in their midfield minutes when off or forward. Langdon has been a good recruit, despite what some think, and will become a very important player for us. Particularly, on the expanses of the MCG in years to come. He needs to fix up his disposal, but he'll get there. I'd also be playing Tomlinson on the other wing. Use his aerobic power and abilities to stretch the opposition and their zones.

So where does that leave Viney? Someone posted the other day, I can't remember who (sorry), that Viney throws out our midfield mix. I think it was you @rjay? I tend to agree. And whilst he loves the club and is a bull, he's too see ball get ball, but if he doesn't win the ball, often it's going down the other end.

This isn't a case of Viney improving his defensive accountability. He's not necessarily bad in that department, it's just his style bashes and crashes the midfield mix to a point where he upsets Oliver and Petracca's cleaner clearances and the makes our midfield less predictable to our forwards. This impacts on forward connection IMO.

At the end of last year, I wrote here that I'd be trading either Gus or Viney, because both players have difficulty slotting in anywhere else. And despite Jack having a very solid season, he's the one I'd be trading. Not to mention, we'd probably be well compensated for him (and could look to trade it for Ben King), I think we had an A grade midfield for the majority of 2018 and we've never recaptured that since Viney has returned to the mix.

In the meantime, I'd be playing Viney at half forward in AVB's pressure role, but I'd take the majority of his midfield minutes away from him. A tough, bold call, but we need to need recapture the 2018 form and the common denominator of success that season was the midfield mix I've described above. It's quite possible that the circuit-breaker of a new coach is needed to implement this, otherwise Goodwin, in order to save his job, must reshuffle.

Discuss.

Apart from Petracca going in the forward line and improved fitness out of sight, what other Midfielder has a different string to their bow?

Clarry spent time in the F50 once upon a time, but apart from that its all the same garbage on repeat.

Harmes in the backline was a fail, Viney and Brayshaw are stale in their current positions, we have not evolved as a team or a club.

This exact fixture 3 years ago in 2017 saw us play without Max Gawn, Jesse Hogan and one other from memory.

We experimented with Tmac as Full Forward, Cam Pedersen in the ruck and i think it was Tyson rotating with Viney inside the guts and that started our run for that year.

Why not put Pickett through the guts for a period he's quick, tackles hard and has slick evasive skills required for a midfielder.

Start getting creative Simon before it's all over.

 

Edited August 3, 2020 by Win4theAges

[buck_nekkid 5,818]

After our insipid performance, i looked at a few other midfields over the weekend.  We seem to crash forward every time.  Other successful midfields would often play laterally, bringing up a winger or half back to provide outside run.  We get the tap from Max, then barge forward handballing furiously to each other before dumping the ‘chaos ball’ inside 50.  When we could run the extra off the back of the square this had potential.  

The midfield mix is less relevant than their method.  Against a well drilled and strong midfield, we get shown up every time.

However, on topic, I would play Viney at half forward a lot more, use Harmes as a Tagger, and rely on Oliver, Trac, Brayshaw, Swallow and occasionally Melksham to work with the wings to create a more systematic exit, rather than just a chaotic one.

[Adam The God 29,356]

9 minutes ago, buck_nekkid said:

After our insipid performance, i looked at a few other midfields over the weekend.  We seem to crash forward every time.  Other successful midfields would often play laterally, bringing up a winger or half back to provide outside run.  We get the tap from Max, then barge forward handballing furiously to each other before dumping the ‘chaos ball’ inside 50.  When we could run the extra off the back of the square this had potential.  

The midfield mix is less relevant than their method.  Against a well drilled and strong midfield, we get shown up every time.

However, on topic, I would play Viney at half forward a lot more, use Harmes as a Tagger, and rely on Oliver, Trac, Brayshaw, Swallow and occasionally Melksham to work with the wings to create a more systematic exit, rather than just a chaotic one.

This is the way we played in 2018 with the half backs. I agree, we go forward every time, almost as if territory gain is all that matters. 

[dimmy 1,282]

At least this discussion is based on appreciation of the positives some players bring to MFC rather than bagging everything.

I have been advocating for Jack Viney to be our small fwd. He is a poor man's Cyril in that opposing players in yhe area would have an eye out for where he is. We would be guaranteed a contest in there on the ground and it means that we do not lose by having our bigger mids i.e. Clarrie, Gus in there . They then form part of the pressure to hold the ball in by supporting that area between HF & Centre which is the most dangerous spot on the ground yo lose control (as Per Jobe Watson , Jordon Lewis and Hodgey.and other recent players.

In that way we can keep our good players but always have options up[ our sleeves.

[Adam The God 29,356]

11 minutes ago, dimmy said:

At least this discussion is based on appreciation of the positives some players bring to MFC rather than bagging everything.

I have been advocating for Jack Viney to be our small fwd. He is a poor man's Cyril in that opposing players in yhe area would have an eye out for where he is. We would be guaranteed a contest in there on the ground and it means that we do not lose by having our bigger mids i.e. Clarrie, Gus in there . They then form part of the pressure to hold the ball in by supporting that area between HF & Centre which is the most dangerous spot on the ground yo lose control (as Per Jobe Watson , Jordon Lewis and Hodgey.and other recent players.

In that way we can keep our good players but always have options up[ our sleeves.

Moving Jack forward would be akin to Hodge moving from the midfield to half back for Hawthorn.

I tend to think Jack could play the AVB role, particularly as AVB has worse disposal than Jack, but can at least find the goals.

If you had a midfield of Oliver, Petracca, Gus with Harmes as tagger.

If you had a forwardline of Weideman, Jackson, Pickett, Fritsch, Melksham with Hannan/Viney/AVB rotating for that last pressure forward spot, I think that's actually not a bad mix and would enable us to lock the ball in the forwardline and play territory, which Goodwin seemingly doesn't want to stop playing.