Death by the pre-tackle

[Dr. Gonzo 24,202]

2 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

All teams do this including us.  The better teams do it better than us. 

Usually if Viney and Oliver are being scragged one of the other mids isn't, can take Max's hitouts and attack.   Max talked about this a few weeks ago.  That week it was Petracca that was able to get free. 

It won't change unless someone makes the umpires aware of it. 

No reason that Max, as captain can't highlight it to the umpires at the end of a quarter. 

You are right every team does it, including us.

What I hate is why do the umpires need to be "made aware of it". They umpire games every week, they should be watching tape to pick up on these things just like players watch tape on opposition. The AFL refuses to make umpires full time so they can argue they don't have time to watch tape but this is a perfect example of why they should be made full time professionals.

The scragging around contests has been going on for years, it does my head in.

[Brownie 5,972]

1 hour ago, BAMF said:

The interesting (and clever) move Brisbane did was have a player sit off the back of Max when he was going for the mark from a down the line kick. Wait till Max is about to take it, then cannon into the back of him, essentially a body spoil preventing him from taking the mark. 

They knew they were outgunned and planned accordingly. Great coaching from Fagan and nothing illegal to it either.

This is all about strategy and coaching rather than umpiring.

Surely we must know that we have the best tap ruckman in the business and teams are going to concede and scrag him and our midfield whole covering the odd free kick.

So what is our counter strategy?

We don't seem to have one.

Yes raise it with the umps and the media but We should have multiple strategies and we should train for it.

E.g

If you're being tackled and haven't yet taken possession, maybe don't take it.

Block and Shepard for each other.

Maybe target a slow midfielder from the opposition and have Gawn tap it down his throat and have Viney bury him multiple times.

Protect Gawn at marking contests where we can.

I dunno, mix it up a bit.

[jnrmac 20,055]

5 hours ago, loges said:

I noticed that a few times, our player grabbed before he'd taken possession of the ball.

Our players have a low footy IQ. In all kinds of situations

If you are getting tackled without the ball then don't take possession. So many times a player would take possession when the smart thing to do is not take possession but, say, tap the ball to the ground. 

Our players never learn. The number of times we didn't go back from the mark and either: a) allow the nball to be touched/spoiled; or b) have to kick an up and under because they were too close with plain infuriating. And whats worse is we do it every week.

Petracca is the worst offender, Max is second.

Wet weather football our players are dumb. They don'tget their body behind the ball and it rund past them. We don't keep a player gaolside at stoppages in the def 50. Basic stuff we do wrong time and time again.

I could go on..

[SwissDee 43]

I noticed this during the game as well. I think the umpires were onto it, they paid three or four holding the man decisions at stoppages (note this was not only a center bounce issue). My impression is that the umpires are told to let the game flow rather than paying frees by the letter of the law - they pay a few to try to try to put a stop to it. But really, the opposition know they're only going to pay a few, and they were winning more stoppages with this tactic than giving away free kicks. 

I was kinda hoping they might put Jackson in the ruck a bit and see whether the tactic changed

[YesitwasaWin4theAges 6,691]

Why doesn't Garry or Schwarta bring this into the public domain, a quick free from the umps will stop all this but the weak [censored] wont pay anything right in front of their noses.

Starting to really [censored] me off Chris Fagan with his attitude, his arrogance on the SEN radio this morning was unbelievable.

[Lucifers Hero 39,662]

If it was Selwood or his cohorts he puts his hands in the air, prances around or deliberately falls over.  Free kick.

HTM paid this year:

Source: plea-for-cripps-to-be-protected

This in fact shows that Cripps is getting more protection than other players so Carlton shouldn't be bleating too much.  Oliver and Pendlebury are getting the second most protection.  Lots of big names who get mauled and not there so getting no protection at all.

Its interesting to see that in nearly all the pics of the op post, the Lion mids are on the outside of ours - they corralled us in, making it nigh impossible to get the ball out or close their exits.  And in those pics our wing men were usually several meters behind their op who was on their own goal side. 

imv the 'corralling' and positioning of their wingmen (more than the scragging) is what stopped us getting clearances.  Simply put, they were smarter.  Disappointingly, neither our captain nor our vice captain changed tactics.  Don't get me wrong, they worked harder but that isn't the same as being smarter.

I get why everyone is frustrated but it is the same for all teams, it won't go away and umpires won't enforce the rule as it stops a 'free flowing game' - the Holy Grail the AFL aspires to.

 

There are many rules umpires are rarely enforcing eg  running a few meters past the point of the mark;  blocking a forward so team mate can take an intercept mark,  not returning the ball immediately to a player etc etc.

The rule non-enforcement that really gets me is 'throwing the ball' for which commentators have found new descriptions:  ball came free in the tackle, flick passing, scooping and the comical 'fresh airy handball'.  Hello, 'fresh airy handball' can only be a throw.  Commentators are complicit in covering up for umpires. 

Anyway,  we got the raw end of the deal on Sunday but it didn't cost us the game.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Lucifer's Hero

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,710]

11 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Our players have a low footy IQ. In all kinds of situations

If you are getting tackled without the ball then don't take possession. So many times a player would take possession when the smart thing to do is not take possession but, say, tap the ball to the ground. 

Our players never learn. The number of times we didn't go back from the mark and either: a) allow the nball to be touched/spoiled; or b) have to kick an up and under because they were too close with plain infuriating. And whats worse is we do it every week.

Petracca is the worst offender, Max is second.

Wet weather football our players are dumb. They don'tget their body behind the ball and it rund past them. We don't keep a player gaolside at stoppages in the def 50. Basic stuff we do wrong time and time again.

I could go on..

It's a sad state of affairs when this becomes a necessity. The game suffers and becomes a less pleasurable viewing experience. For this reason alone, it is incumbent on the AFL to do something pro-active.

Maybe we won't need to worry about zones, 6-6-6 and interchange limits if the ball moves quickly away from stoppages in the first place.

 

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

17 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

A lot of threads complaining about the umpiring yesterday but I thought this really deserves its own one as it's a huge issue and was a big reason why we lost the game. And it happens week in and week out.

It's the 'pre-tackle' where a player second to the ball starts his tackle early and isn't penalised. Gawn's ruck dominance is completely squandered.

4 out of the 5 centre bounces in the first quarter involved Brisbane players grabbing hold of us before we were first to the ball. (The 5th was won by Harmes who was caught fair and square). 

Petracca, Viney, Viney, Oliver all just grabbed before they get hands on the ball which makes it very difficult to get off a clean disposal.

In the 2nd quarter it's Petracca with the saddle on and Oliver completely wrapped up.

Carlton have put the word in to the AFL about the treatment of Cripps. I think we have to ask the question about why Gawn dominated and our mids got first hands on the ball but we were smashed in the clearances. Part of it is our fault but we're also getting no reward for being first to the ball.

Great pick up DS.  Clarry did get one or two frees for holding by his opponent but that was about it for our mids from what i recall.

With their coach coming out of the Clarkson sausage machine why doesn't this surprise me.

If this is the case then we should put a complaint in to AFL HQ and if no response start training it ourselves and man handling the opp around stoppages.  What's good for the goose...

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,701]

The most frustrating thing is it happened to us all game and then I believe late in the 4th we did a similar thing and the umps decided to pay a free kick. There's no consistency at the moment and the AFL know it but have no idea what to do.

The game is a complete schamozzle at the moment and is an eye sore and all the rule changes they brought in the last few years have made it worse. 

Both Gil and Hocking should go.

[david_neitz_is_my_dad 4,083]

Petracca got tackled and dumped by Rayner when he didn’t even have it, don’t know how the umpires missed it

[drdrake 3,163]

It will be the same this week, Port know that we will dominate the hit outs, there intention will be to pre-tackle or push our mids under the ball given then access to the tap.  Can't remember the stat but we had a massive hit outs to advantage against Brisbane were we got first touch after the tap, Brisbane just didn't allow us to make it a clean possession and in effect causing a turnover at the clearance that lead to them winning the clearance.  Whether legal or not that was their plan and they executed it perfectly.

Why don't we mix it up more a big whack toward CHF, instead of basically hit the ball down inside the circle or close to it, every now and then open the back of the square and circle up and hit it 5-10m towards our goals.

The other concern was the constant chopping of Gawns arms when he went for a mark, it was happening all night.  What was frustrating, we knew we would kick the ball to Max, Brisbane knew we would kick the ball to Max but we were always out numbered when the ball hit the ground.

[whatwhat say what 22,713]

it seems that while the players themselves are trying not to get completely sucked into the contest, the oppo are away of that and are pushing our mids around the contest by 'sweating' on them defensively and corralling them to the contest

10 minutes ago, drdrake said:

The other concern was the constant chopping of Gawns arms when he went for a mark, it was happening all night.  What was frustrating, we knew we would kick the ball to Max, Brisbane knew we would kick the ball to Max but we were always out numbered when the ball hit the ground.

for mine this was a far bigger issue than oliver, trac, or viney being held around the contest - the amount of manhandling gawn cops on a week in week out basis is extraordinary 

[Melb-A-Toast 257]

18 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

A lot of threads complaining about the umpiring yesterday but I thought this really deserves its own one as it's a huge issue and was a big reason why we lost the game. And it happens week in and week out.

It's the 'pre-tackle' where a player second to the ball starts his tackle early and isn't penalised. Gawn's ruck dominance is completely squandered.

4 out of the 5 centre bounces in the first quarter involved Brisbane players grabbing hold of us before we were first to the ball. (The 5th was won by Harmes who was caught fair and square). 

Petracca, Viney, Viney, Oliver all just grabbed before they get hands on the ball which makes it very difficult to get off a clean disposal.

In the 2nd quarter it's Petracca with the saddle on and Oliver completely wrapped up.

Carlton have put the word in to the AFL about the treatment of Cripps. I think we have to ask the question about why Gawn dominated and our mids got first hands on the ball but we were smashed in the clearances. Part of it is our fault but we're also getting no reward for being first to the ball.

Great analysis. It is a change that could be interpreted in the same manner as they do after an awarded mark.

Giving the power to the "first to the ball" maybe even interpret as a tackle cannot be made until it is clearly in the possession of opposing player, rather than when a player is still attempting to gain control.

I remember great exponents of getting rewarded by not taking possesion like Keith Greig, Kevin Bartlett, Schimmelbusch and Robert Flower. This would also most likely speed up the movement of the ball.

[Lucifers Hero 39,662]

Deleted.  Repetitive Post

Edited July 28, 2020 by Lucifer's Hero