17 minutes ago, Grr-owl said:

This doesn't have to be a personal thing. Just having a discussion. Sowell has been criticized in the manner that you say, but that doesn't mean he is wrong. He also accuses his critics of failing to provide evidence. For me, the jury is out on Sowell. His politics have a sniff of libertarian about them, which is a bit suspicious. But then it's not his identify that needs to be discussed, but his writing.

Maybe rather than make assumptions about me, you could direct me to a source on the history of slavery with a bit more integrity.

There's a ton out there mate, have a look. If you've found Sowell then you've likely gone past a stack of them already.

Using Sowell's view in this context is a bit like wanting to pick up a pot, 99 people tell you it's hot, 1 person says it's not, so you pick it up and burn yourself.

57 minutes ago, GoGetRossLyon said:

Whoever wrote this needs to see a psychiatrist.

The only racism I ever see on social media is anti -white racism.  In fact, it is rampant.   And the media conveniently ignores it.

You actually select what you want to see on social media, so if this is what you are seeing, it's your choice

16 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

There's a ton out there mate, have a look. If you've found Sowell then you've likely gone past a stack of them already.

Using Sowell's view in this context is a bit like wanting to pick up a pot, 99 people tell you it's hot, 1 person says it's not, so you pick it up and burn yourself.

No need to be aggressive to me, Nev. If you aren't willing to help me with a reference, then I'm walking blind in the library and more likely to go past the stack. Never mind, I'll help myself...

2 minutes ago, Grr-owl said:

No need to be aggressive to me, Nev. If you aren't willing to help me with a reference, then I'm walking blind in the library and more likely to go past the stack. Never mind, I'll help myself...

Apologies for coming across aggressive, wasn't intended in that spirit.

There's just a lot out there. If you're into information in video format then the documentary "13th" provides a good insight into the historical context of systematic racism, slavery and incarceration.

2 hours ago, Grr-owl said:

Quite a list. Disgraceful, to say the least.  

On the positive side, though Indigenous people won the right to vote in 1967, where I live the last slave market closed in 1968. As bad as the Australian list of abuses is, it isn't worse than other civilizations, and it is better in one extremely important respect: There is a list.

That is to say, while the rest of the world pretends that such abuses as those above existed only in the West, and while almost nobody knows the history of something as significant as slavery -- 

Australians are acknowledging that abuses have happened and are grappling with racism. No need to beat each other up about a past that can't be changed. Deal with it and make the future better. That's kind of a football way of handling things...

A couple of things.

I think i see in a general sense i see what you are saying.

If i understand you correctly one of your key points is that you believe there are many countries more racist than Australia (and they include non western countries).

Perhaps you are right on that point, i don't know, but i think there is an issue with equivalence when it comes to racism in so far as it implies there is some sort of scale with egregious racism at one end and not so bad racism at the other. And that with such a scale you could somehow attribute measurements to work out where a country (or perhaps even individuals) sat on the scale.   

I just think it is a reductionist way of coming at the issue of racism and not that helpful (to be clear i'm not having a go at you here).

On the bolded bit i respectfully disagree with you, particularly as it relates to our collective relationship with Aboriginal people and dealing or even properly acknowledging our history. We are a million miles away from reconciliation and coming to terms with our past. And we don't really want to i don't think.

Perhaps the journey has started but honestly it feels to me as if that is about the best we could say. 

If you haven't been living in Australia in the last few years you would have missed two key events that show how far we have to go on that journey. The whole shameful years long Adam Goode tragedy that made me ashamed to be  Australian. And the shameful rejection by the Australian government of the  Uluru Statement from the Heart and the complete lack of lack of public outcry.  

What i do 100% agree with is that we have to deal with our history and the racism that is the foundation of Australia. I liken Australia to a emotionally stunted teenager kis that refuses to grow up. To grow up we need to deal with our past.

 

Edited July 14, 20204 yr by binman

@binman won't quote your whole post, agree totally re Goodes

If Australia needed reminding that it still had a long way to go, the treatment of Goodes was that reminder, unfortunately as it falls off the front pages, it is soon forgotten

That is why the calling out of racism is so important, we can bring it to the front again

And try and keep it at the front

 

28 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Apologies for coming across aggressive, wasn't intended in that spirit.

There's just a lot out there. If you're into information in video format then the documentary "13th" provides a good insight into the historical context of systematic racism, slavery and incarceration.

Cheers, I'll take look. 

22 hours ago, jnrmac said:

I suggest you go an read the Australian Institute of Criminology Report into Black Deaths in Custody since the 1991 Royal Commission.

I did and it is quite illuminating. I'll copy it here for you so can you can educate yourself.

https://www.aic.gov.au/publications/sr/sr21

Given that most people won't read the report you've linked, it's a shame you didn't explicitly express the point I'm guessing you wanted to make - that the majority of Indigenous deaths in custody are from natural causes, suicide etc, rather than guards / cops killing them, and that the rate of  Indigenous deaths in custody is actually lower than it is for the rest of us. It's important, and people should understand what's behind the 430+ number that is often quoted. 

But that doesn't take away from the injustice of some of those deaths. 

Reports with stats don't tell the stories of Tanya Day (a relative of Nev's wife, I believe), who was picked up for public drunkenness but didn't get the friendly ride home which Steele Sidebottom had the other week when he was found naked and drunk in the streets. 

People should read the accounts of the deaths of people like David Dungay Jnr and Cameron Doomadgee, whose spleen was so badly injured it was basically split in two, and ask themselves whether any white Australian has ever 'died in custody' the way they did? 

It's scandalous that 30 years after the RC, most of its recommendations still haven't been implemented. 

We seem to be covering a lot of positive territory on this thread and it made me wonder what everyone's thoughts were in regards to Australia Day. Apologies if this has already been covered elsewhere or if it's considered slightly off topic. Ignore me if it is.  

I think we could kill two birds with the one stone perhaps by declaring / voting for a republic and thereby creating a new national day that everyone could feel comfortable celebrating. This would then replace January 26. In an ideal world of course we would just be mature enough to understand that it's no fun celebrating something that upsets so many of our fellow citizens for obvious reasons and change it anyway but it's not an ideal world we live in. 

Personally I'd go one step further and take the butchers apron off the flag as well if we really do want to grow up as a nation but I wouldn't want that to sidetrack the bigger discussion we're all having here. It would have the added benefit of pissing of royalists though which can only be a good thing considering we're now living in the 21st century. 

17 hours ago, jnrmac said:

I'm not going to engage in a debate with you when you post such hyperbole, use lots of emotive and fashionable buzz words but are devoid of facts.

The report was produced to establish how the 'system' had performed since the 1991 Royal Commission into deaths in custody. And 'custody' includes deaths as a result of car accidents whilst being pursued.

I would encourage you to read it, it's not that long and the results might surprise you.

Facts have a habit of getting obliterated, right about the same time history gets rewritten.

8 minutes ago, willmoy said:

Facts have a habit of getting obliterated, right about the same time history gets rewritten.

Not quite sure of your point here as it relates to deaths in custody rc, the point of which was not to prosecute an argument that Australia is racist, but to determine why aboriginal people die in custody and knowing that how those deaths can be prevented.

The critical fact that is under no debate and is not in danger of being rewritten is that as grapeviney noted the majority of the rc's recommendations have not been implemented. What forces must be at work for that to be the case do you think?

 

29 minutes ago, binman said:

Not quite sure of your point here as it relates to deaths in custody rc, the point of which was not to prosecute an argument that Australia is racist, but to determine why aboriginal people die in custody and knowing that how those deaths can be prevented.

The critical fact that is under no debate and is not in danger of being rewritten is that as grapeviney noted the majority of the rc's recommendations have not been implemented. What forces must be at work for that to be the case do you think?

 

Don't disagree Binman,  my reply pertained to many injustices  here being done and hidden whether it be Afghanistan or Vietnam or R.C's galore just as Australia is in a race to the bottom on many fronts and rewriting is one white people are really good at....

To the specific, Deaths in Custody, i don't think we want to listen to or indeed comprehend this deep issue, as it is for indigenous peoples. We are not even there yet!!

15 hours ago, willmoy said:

Facts have a habit of getting obliterated, right about the same time history gets rewritten.

I understand and agree with your point, but (in the words of a much better American President than the current one), "Facts are stubborn things". Facts can't be obliterated. They can, however, be forgotten, ignored or misrepresented, which, I believe is what you are saying.

 

On 7/14/2020 at 3:50 PM, GoGetRossLyon said:

The only racism I ever see on social media is anti -white racism.  In fact, it is rampant.   And the media conveniently ignores it.

Agree.
Just have a look at the recent BLM movement.
Much of that was pure open hatred toward whites that was condoned.
 

 

Well, this thread has certainly been enlightening on a bunch of fellow Demonlanders.

Geez we have such a long way to go.

And we'll never get there.
Racism is rife the world over.
Only the naive think they'll end racism by pontificating on social media.

Edited July 17, 20204 yr by Fork 'em

3 minutes ago, Fork 'em said:

And we'll never get there.
Racism is rife the world over.
Only the naive think they'll end racism by pontificating on social media.

So you don't want racism to be eradicated

Your suggestion that it is 'pontificating seems to suggest that

There are more ways and channels to 'educated

But then again you can only do that to those who want to be 'educated

I personally don't condone racism against anybody, but it is a convenience for racists to play the victim card, a la Trump

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

Well, this thread has certainly been enlightening on a bunch of fellow Demonlanders.

Geez we have such a long way to go.

Oooppphhh there goes 2 more to the ignore list. 

On 7/14/2020 at 5:10 PM, binman said:

A couple of things.

I think i see in a general sense i see what you are saying.

If i understand you correctly one of your key points is that you believe there are many countries more racist than Australia (and they include non western countries).

Perhaps you are right on that point, i don't know, but i think there is an issue with equivalence when it comes to racism in so far as it implies there is some sort of scale with egregious racism at one end and not so bad racism at the other. And that with such a scale you could somehow attribute measurements to work out where a country (or perhaps even individuals) sat on the scale.   

I just think it is a reductionist way of coming at the issue of racism and not that helpful (to be clear i'm not having a go at you here).

On the bolded bit i respectfully disagree with you, particularly as it relates to our collective relationship with Aboriginal people and dealing or even properly acknowledging our history. We are a million miles away from reconciliation and coming to terms with our past. And we don't really want to i don't think.

Perhaps the journey has started but honestly it feels to me as if that is about the best we could say. 

If you haven't been living in Australia in the last few years you would have missed two key events that show how far we have to go on that journey. The whole shameful years long Adam Goode tragedy that made me ashamed to be  Australian. And the shameful rejection by the Australian government of the  Uluru Statement from the Heart and the complete lack of lack of public outcry.  

What i do 100% agree with is that we have to deal with our history and the racism that is the foundation of Australia. I liken Australia to a emotionally stunted teenager kis that refuses to grow up. To grow up we need to deal with our past.

 

Well said @binman

I tend to think that it is almost impossible to eradicate racism in this world which in its most grotesque form is 'ethnic cleansing' by despot governments eg Hitler, Sadam Hussein and currently China and Myanmar to name a few.

But we live in a democratic and civilised society and must do everything to stamp out racism whether it is toward our indigenous Australians or to other ethnic groups who have arrived in more recent or not so recent times.  That means inter-race racism also needs to stop.

Back on topic, as a nation we have a lot of work to do to help right past wrongs toward our indigenous Australians.

Every little bit counts.

Edited July 17, 20204 yr by Lucifer's Hero

50 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

So you don't want racism to be eradicated

Your suggestion that it is 'pontificating seems to suggest that

There are more ways and channels to 'educated

But then again you can only do that to those who want to be 'educated

I personally don't condone racism against anybody, but it is a convenience for racists to play the victim card, a la Trump

Did I say I didn't want racism to end?
Be great in a perfect world if it wasn't a thing.

But guess what ..... The world isn't perfect and never will be.
 

45 minutes ago, Cards13 said:

Oooppphhh there goes 2 more to the ignore list. 

Go right ahead.
Live in ya little echo chamber.

Edited July 17, 20204 yr by Fork 'em

35 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

>>>>  That means inter-race racism also needs to stop.

 

not sure what you are trying to say here, luci?

11 hours ago, Fork 'em said:

Agree.
Just have a look at the recent BLM movement.
Much of that was pure open hatred toward whites that was condoned.
 

Thanks Fork em. And i don't mean that sarcastically. I promise

That video clip is literally one of the funniest things i have seen. Watching it i thought this simply has to be a parody. A brilliant one at that. One made even more funny by the fact the fellas name is Tom Macdonald.

It is just so pitch perfect the way nails every grievance of disenfranchised white men/babies fearing a future that does not involve them holding all the cards and being in power.

Men, who, without irony, see themselves as the real victims, victims that struggle to have a voice in this time of woke, cancel culture gone mad (which reminds me of the irony of Fox news, the most watched news outlet on the planet, railing against so called mainstream media).

As i say it simply has to be a parody, I did quick google search and he he names of some of his other tracks include; “Straight White Male”  “Everybody Hates Me” and "Coronavirus" - that of course pushes conspiracy theories.

You couldn't make this stuff up. Fantastic. 

Well played Fork em and big props to the comedic genius of Tom Macdonald.

 

11 minutes ago, binman said:

You couldn't make this stuff up. Fantastic.

binman taking out the trash adds another level to it for me.