Where did it all go wrong for the Demons?

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

3 minutes ago, RalphiusMaximus said:

If you look at the history of the club, right from the beginning we've been slow to adapt and embrace new realities.  The MFC has had a history of relying on the prestige of being THE MFC, the FIRST club and assuming that players will just want to come here.  Back when the league first agreed that players could be paid "travel expenses" for coming to games, guess which club refused to do it?  Player payments.  Recruiting zones.  Paying players to move into different cities so they could be recruited by your club...  Melbourne have always been the team that missed the boat.  Then when they finally did try to do something a little bit dodgy to gain an advantage, they stuffed it up, failed to capitalise on the advantage they had worked for and then got caught out and fined half a million dollars. 

There's a bit of truth in that - but it also reeks of excuse making. Collingwood in Jock McHales day had a policy of paying every player the same. It cost them Ron Todd but they still got on and made finals, GF and won premierships. Our problem is we are co atantly questioning our direction, like we have some ongoing existential crisis about what we stand for. Is it because we grew from a stadium and not a suburb? If we were the East Melbourne Football Club would we be better off?

Complacency was definitely a problem after the 50s and 60s and being the club of the establishment probably doesn't help either. We need to just learn how to be a football club instead of constantly worrying about our identity. Being a football club is simple, look after your people (including supporters) and win games of footy. Nothing else matters.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,053]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Our problem is we are co atantly questioning our direction, like we have some ongoing existential crisis about what we stand for

There's a lot of truth in that.  It would be amazing if we could get the admin and coaching to stop trying to copy the successful models of other clubs, come up with our own blueprint (that works) and then stick to their guns and follow through with it. 

[Macca 16,969]

Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

From my reading that was just the straw that broke the camels back. It seems there was a relationship breakdown between Smith and the board that would've blown up anyway.

You sure Gonzo?

Your take on it puts a ribbon on the box but all the supposed conflict beforehand didn't stop the club from having a truckload of success.

A bit of infighting and conflict never hurt anyone (as long as it doesn't get out of out) To get things done,  pats on the back never really works (IMO) Often people need to be challenged to extract the best results.

Look at Barassi at Carlton & North ... went really hard at the best players and it worked.  Smith coached the same.  Didn't suffer fools so it stands to reason he'd be up against the Board.

But the court case was the catalyst moment in my opinion. 

Those who lived through it may disagree but attitudes towards umpires has never been healthy ever since the game had umpires.  It's that sort of sport.

At a guess,  I reckon most would prefer to agree with Smith's assertion of the umpire in question. 

And I don't. 

I reckon he was out of line no matter what his inner thoughts were.  He should have never said what he said.

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

42 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Our problem is we are co atantly questioning our direction, like we have some ongoing existential crisis about what we stand for. Is it because we grew from a stadium and not a suburb? If we were the East Melbourne Football Club would we be better off?

Could it be that the great walls of the Mcg grew,  to become a barrier.

Fencing us off from peoples imaginations,  and keeping people away.  A bit like the Kings realm,  and the peasants outside.?

 

[Hogan2014 390]

2 hours ago, MyFavouriteMartian said:

Its a strange notion,  that directors should look further away from the Mcg for our PotOfGold,   whilst they sit in side the Holy Grail,  pontificating on the future of Mfc.?

Any-wonder nothing has changed,  because everyone is peering at the playing surface of the 'G',  instead of pondering our well-being outside the perimeter.

They should consider looking at aligning with Port Melb FC  some colours & theme song. The fishermen’s bend development will see an extra 20,000 in population growth. The ground is in need of development & opportunity to develop great training facilities along with housing the entire club under one roof. Easier access for members & supporters to access vs what we have now. 

[Jack Russell 80]

41 minutes ago, RalphiusMaximus said:

There's a lot of truth in that.  It would be amazing if we could get the admin and coaching to stop trying to copy the successful models of other clubs, come up with our own blueprint (that works) and then stick to their guns and follow through with it. 

How would you know that’s not what happening now and over last few years - for first time we have stable competent admin making good decisions - problem is they inherited a debacle that many posters on this site based on their own comments sat back and let happen not for a few years but decades and now seem to grovel in pleasure going over it - it is just staggering the negativity and that our own can’t see the transformation going on

[Diamond_Jim 12,586]

58 minutes ago, Jack Russell said:

it is just staggering the negativity and that our own can’t see the transformation going on

some of us just see another group of decent players being squandered

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Our problem is we are co atantly questioning our direction, like we have some ongoing existential crisis about what we stand for. Is it because we grew from a stadium and not a suburb? If we were the East Melbourne Football Club would we be better off?

fascinating concept... definitely something in that

[darkhorse72 1,917]

Basically, the competition moved to professional and we didn't.  Reading the Red Fox and other biographies on the club it was mentioned that the quality of players was declining from our zones, plus Melbourne was no longer the "destination" club it was over the previous decade as players came to play for us from the country etc.  This was ending.  

Facilities were a factor but not until the 80's when everyone's training facilties improved.

We were right to leave the MCC and should have done it earlier.  But when we left we should have been paid our goodwill for helping develop the MCG/MCC and its environment with the clubs success.   We should have left with a good severance check to setup the club outside the MCC, if they did then Barassi may have been more successful in changing the club to one that is fully professional. 

Post then we unfortunately reached the GF when a dominant team was there as well.  We had some back luck in the 90's and held onto the players too long after 2004 as ND did have favourites and didn't develop the next generation till we fell in a hole.  

The last 5 years has shown the creation of a new professional club that is competing is a very tough competition.  However, we do have a better foundation and more certainty for the future, less what cover-19 will do to the competition! 

 

 

 

 

 

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

3 hours ago, Macca said:

In a nutshell the board members wouldn't have wanted to stand by Smith (and they didn't) as they themselves would have then been directly associated with Smith's comment that umpire Don Blew was a cheat. 

What do you think they should have done?

Can you imagine any of the current board members standing by Goodwin if he made such a claim?

And whatever the laws of the land were at the time doesn't change the fact that Smith was out of line. 

As it stands,  he settled out of court so we could assume that the umpire was at least compensated in part. 

And by the way,  if you remove all prejudice,  you might see it my way.

Just for a heads-up,  I have never had a problem with any umpiring decision,  ever.  Hard to believe but it is true.  I don't view the sport as many others do.

For the most part,  we've been a poor outfit in my time following the Demons so a few umpiring decisions here and there means diddly-squat to me (in the whole scheme of things)

Yeah but you are totally off to say the board risked criminal records. I’m sorry, you don’t know what you are talking about. I understand Smith may have been out of line, but your assertion that he and the board could have been criminally responsible shows a lack of knowledge of the legal system in this country. I just don’t know where you were coming from with that comment 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Leoncelli_36

[hemingway 7,627]

Not sure why supporters want to wallow in the mire by constantly revisiting the past. Very depressing. It is what it is. The past gets revisited all the time and despite folks best and worst efforts there is never any clarity and indeed there will never be an answer. 

The reasons for our  lack of success has been rehashed hundreds of times. 

It is just a game and for many during this pandemic it suddenly seems less important than life itself. 

 

[Macca 16,969]

35 minutes ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

Yeah but you are totally off to say the bird

What bird? Haha. 

Let's just say that that the board would have risked their own reputations (individually) and run the risk of a huge payout (again,  as individuals) if they'd agreed to back Smith.

Would you do such a thing if you were a board member at the time?

The fact is that Don Blew took Smith to court for what can almost certainly be classed as libelous comments (or slander) and then Smith decided to settle out of court (probably on the advice from his legal representation)

In effect,  Smith ended up paying Blew an agreed amount to make the whole thing go away.  I'm guessing he might have had a few sleepless nights wondering why he ever opened his mouth in the first place.

Great coach though.

Can you imagine if it were to happen now?  It sort of did with James Hird (to a much lesser extent) but that cost dear old James a cool $20k

Anyway,  if you know your history the board decided to not stand by Smith and then in amongst the turmoil decided to sack Smith only to reinstate him a week later.

And the board would have been taking a risk by standing by Smith as they'd be by default,  agreeing with his slanderous comments. 

Would they then decide to settle out of court if they backed Smith ... they probably knew way in advance that they could never win a case like that unless they could actually prove that Don Blew was a cheat. 

I think it's you who doesn't know how to process new information.  Smith calling Don Blew a cheat shouldn't be looked at as a flippant act.  Quite the contrary actually ... and it turned out that way much to the chagrin of those who hate umpires.

It was a huge story at the time as it would be now but again,  I maintain that Smith contributed to his own downfall.

Not the sort of stuff that suits the narrative but I couldn't care less. 

Umpires aren't cheats by the way.  They don't hate us and they've never had it in for us.  They are just trying their best to umpire a largely un-umpirable sport.  All the more difficult these days as the sport is more like scramble-ball rather than football.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Macca

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

2 hours ago, Macca said:

You sure Gonzo?

Your take on it puts a ribbon on the box but all the supposed conflict beforehand didn't stop the club from having a truckload of success.

A bit of infighting and conflict never hurt anyone (as long as it doesn't get out of out) To get things done,  pats on the back never really works (IMO) Often people need to be challenged to extract the best results.

Look at Barassi at Carlton & North ... went really hard at the best players and it worked.  Smith coached the same.  Didn't suffer fools so it stands to reason he'd be up against the Board.

But the court case was the catalyst moment in my opinion. 

Those who lived through it may disagree but attitudes towards umpires has never been healthy ever since the game had umpires.  It's that sort of sport.

At a guess,  I reckon most would prefer to agree with Smith's assertion of the umpire in question. 

And I don't. 

I reckon he was out of line no matter what his inner thoughts were.  He should have never said what he said.

It's just the feeling I got while watching an old Norm Smith doco from fox footy a couple of weeks back. It had an extended version of the interview of Smith on the Tony Charlton show after his sacking which led me to believe the bad blood between he and the board went beyond this incident and went to the heart of our fall from grace. He said in that interview in 1965 that he and others (like Barassi) could see the writing on the wall but the board were oblivious

Interestingly another commentator (can't remember who it was) that was interviewed made the comment that yeah, what Norm Smith did was wrong and anyone else you could understand the board not backing them. But this guy WAS Melbourne, he played in 4 premierships, coached 6 more for a total involvement in 10 of the clubs 12 flags! He had just come off an unprecedented era of success. Guys like that you back to the hilt, even if they're wrong.

It was an interesting half hour doco, I'll try and upload to YouTube and post here in the next couple of days.

[Satyriconhome 10,878]

32 minutes ago, hemingway said:

Not sure why supporters want to wallow in the mire by constantly revisiting the past. Very depressing. It is what it is. The past gets revisited all the time and despite folks best and worst efforts there is never any clarity and indeed there will never be an answer. 

The reasons for our  lack of success has been rehashed hundreds of times. 

It is just a game and for many during this pandemic it suddenly seems less important than life itself. 

 

Come on chap, you are trying to take their broken records away

We both know it's only a game

But @Sir Why You Little  has still not expunged the memory of Cam Schwab running over his cat

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

35 minutes ago, hemingway said:

Not sure why supporters want to wallow in the mire by constantly revisiting the past. Very depressing. It is what it is. The past gets revisited all the time and despite folks best and worst efforts there is never any clarity and indeed there will never be an answer. 

The reasons for our  lack of success has been rehashed hundreds of times. 

It is just a game and for many during this pandemic it suddenly seems less important than life itself. 

 

Because it is part of our clubs history and without addressing it and recognising the failure we won't be able to achieve success.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

3 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

Come on chap, you are trying to take their broken records away

We both know it's only a game

But @Sir Why You Little  has still not expunged the memory of Cam Schwab running over his cat

If it were "only a game" you wouldn't dedicate hours upon hours on here or at training or at the club etc It's more than a game, it's part of the fabric and history of this city/state/country. It's tribal. Supporters are emotionally invested and for many the football club is like a part of their extended family, it is part of their identity.

That's not to say there shouldn't be perspective, but trying to downplay its importance is equally silly.

[Macca 16,969]

32 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

It's just the feeling I got while watching an old Norm Smith doco from fox footy a couple of weeks back. It had an extended version of the interview of Smith on the Tony Charlton show after his sacking which led me to believe the bad blood between he and the board went beyond this incident and went to the heart of our fall from grace. He said in that interview in 1965 that he and others (like Barassi) could see the writing on the wall but the board were oblivious

Interestingly another commentator (can't remember who it was) that was interviewed made the comment that yeah, what Norm Smith did was wrong and anyone else you could understand the board not backing them. But this guy WAS Melbourne, he played in 4 premierships, coached 6 more for a total involvement in 10 of the clubs 12 flags! He had just come off an unprecedented era of success. Guys like that you back to the hilt, even if they're wrong.

It was an interesting half hour doco, I'll try and upload to YouTube and post here in the next couple of days.

I'll keep an eye out for it Gonzo

So you believe the club backs Norm and then goes to court alongside him in a libel case?  A case they can't possibly win.  Where the case will be settled out of court.  Why would they do that?  Doesn't make sense to me.  Put the whole club at risk?  Sorry,  can't agree with that one.

IMO if Smith doesn't call Don Blew a cheat then the board would never have sacked him.  He gave them a reason to sack him.

So if he didn't get sacked then what?  Again,  only my opinion but he would have simply carried on as coach (albeit with a bit of turmoil with the board) Business as usual.

But because of our zones he would have had to find a way to entice talent to the club ... it's interesting that when Norm was Match Committee chairman at North (appointed along with Barassi at the end of 1972) they embarked on a recruiting drive exploiting the 10 year rule as well as raiding the interstate clubs for talent.

Perhaps he could have done the same at Melbourne if the atmosphere was more convivial (more so the interstate talent as the 10 year rule didn't come into effect until 1972 into 1973)

As it was,  he coached through to the end of '67 with us and the list continued to decline. 

It was a sad end of course but that sad end could have been avoided.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Macca

[praha 11,240]

11 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Should have had a massive clean out (Clarko Style) after the 2004 Season, to be on top and then lose 5 Games should have told us the list was not up to it. Players should have been sold whilst they had value, but ND (Bless him) had his faves

 

Daniher should have been moved on after 2003. And definitely after our breakdown in 2004. In 2005 we lost 7 games in a row and barely made finals..In 2006 we lost our first 3 games and also lost to Carlton twice (won 3 games for the year) costing us a top 4 spot. 

In hindsigh it is rather astonishing that Daniher lasted as long as he did. 

[Macca 16,969]

9 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Because it is part of our clubs history and without addressing it and recognising the failure we won't be able to achieve success.

Very good point Gonzo ... doomed to making the same mistakes over and over again because of inherent thinking. 

Not being able to adapt is one thing but refusing to adapt is another.

What North did in the 70's with regards to recruiting is something that we could have easily done if we had the willpower and the forward thinking. 

We get self satisfied with a taste of winning and then fall away.  That's the pattern through the years.  Happened again last season.

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

10 hours ago, Macca said:

What bird? Haha. 

Let's just say that that the board would have risked their own reputations (individually) and run the risk of a huge payout (again,  as individuals) if they'd agreed to back Smith.

Would you do such a thing if you were a board member at the time?

The fact is that Don Blew took Smith to court for what can almost certainly be classed as libelous comments (or slander) and then Smith decided to settle out of court (probably on the advice from his legal representation)

In effect,  Smith ended up paying Blew an agreed amount to make the whole thing go away.  I'm guessing he might have had a few sleepless nights wondering why he ever opened his mouth in the first place.

Great coach though.

Can you imagine if it were to happen now?  It sort of did with James Hird (to a much lesser extent) but that cost dear old James a cool $20k

Anyway,  if you know your history the board decided to not stand by Smith and then in amongst the turmoil decided to sack Smith only to reinstate him a week later.

And the board would have been taking a risk by standing by Smith as they'd be by default,  agreeing with his slanderous comments. 

Would they then decide to settle out of court if they backed Smith ... they probably knew way in advance that they could never win a case like that unless they could actually prove that Don Blew was a cheat. 

I think it's you who doesn't know how to process new information.  Smith calling Don Blew a cheat shouldn't be looked at as a flippant act.  Quite the contrary actually ... and it turned out that way much to the chagrin of those who hate umpires.

It was a huge story at the time as it would be now but again,  I maintain that Smith contributed to his own downfall.

Not the sort of stuff that suits the narrative but I couldn't care less. 

Umpires aren't cheats by the way.  They don't hate us and they've never had it in for us.  They are just trying their best to umpire a largely un-umpirable sport.  All the more difficult these days as the sport is more like scramble-ball rather than football.

If the comment was substantially true, then a good lawyer would have got them all off, but I accept your point. Rather than picking on typos though, maybe just concede that you had no idea what you were talking about and were ranting about criminality, while not understanding the law of defamation at all. You cited slander and libel, both American terms. That's all. 

[Satyriconhome 10,878]

10 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

If it were "only a game" you wouldn't dedicate hours upon hours on here or at training or at the club etc It's more than a game, it's part of the fabric and history of this city/state/country. It's tribal. Supporters are emotionally invested and for many the football club is like a part of their extended family, it is part of their identity.

That's not to say there shouldn't be perspective, but trying to downplay its importance is equally silly.

I go to training coz I am out for a ride on my scooter on my time off, still been doing it

It's a game, blown out of all proportion to it's actual importance in life

The past is the past, you can't change it

I made a promise to a tall Irishman, re the Club, I don't renege

I don't dedicate hours, taught to speed read, and I only read the posts that have something new to say

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

50 minutes ago, Macca said:

Very good point Gonzo ... doomed to making the same mistakes over and over again because of inherent thinking. 

Not being able to adapt is one thing but refusing to adapt is another.

What North did in the 70's with regards to recruiting is something that we could have easily done if we had the willpower and the forward thinking. 

We get self satisfied with a taste of winning and then fall away.  That's the pattern through the years.  Happened again last season.

Hopefully some of our players have been watching The Last Dance on Netflix to get an idea of the mentality required to succeed at the highest level.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

30 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

I go to training coz I am out for a ride on my scooter on my time off, still been doing it

It's a game, blown out of all proportion to it's actual importance in life

The past is the past, you can't change it

I made a promise to a tall Irishman, re the Club, I don't renege

I don't dedicate hours, taught to speed read, and I only read the posts that have something new to say

Come on mate. Of course its "only" a game in the grand scheme of things, but people are emotionally invested in their clubs which do not just represent a game but a community. That's why people post here.

Over 7 and a half years I'm sure you've spent more than a few minutes on here

Edited May 18, 2020 by Dr. Gonzo

[spirit of norm smith 16,457]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Hopefully some of our players have been watching The Last Dance on Netflix to get an idea of the mentality required to succeed at the highest level.

Agree. Hope they see the hard work and psychology of winning.  

[spirit of norm smith 16,457]

15 hours ago, praha said:

It all went bad (and came good) at the worst times.

A down period was to be expected after our glory years. Every team has gone through it. Hardly surprising. Longer than usual, but news of our struggles during that period is hardly known (or cared about) outside of Victoria.

We bounce back in the late 80s and run into a brick wall powerhouse in the Hawks. We stay near the top for long enough and become complacent: at a time when football department spend was on the rise we stayed in amateur town, training at Junction Oval using Average Joes gym and recovery equipment. Whilst the rest of the league was becoming professional, we never quite transitioned until much later. We were in essence a team run like an amateaur football club until the late 90s (at the earliest).

We fall a bit, survive multiple merger attempts, and start a new era. BOOM. Another brick wall in the Essendon powerhouse. We stick with a crop of good but not great players, and the "boys club" is formed, or at least cemented in the culture. 

We crash and burn, and at the start of the social media era, where information and news spreads faster than the Road Runner, we are known as that team always at the bottom of the ladder. Melbourne's population booms, neutral  supporters latch onto your Hawthorns and Geelongs, and it's "uncool" to follow a team like Melbourne. Growth is difficult. EVERYONE knows how bad we are. There's no hiding from it.

Meanwhile, we continue to tread water to stay afloat, struggling to win games and get people to our games. Thus, slow growth at a time when even modestly successful clubs can pump millions into their departments.

We bounce back and have a strong season, only to crash down again due to shocking player management.

All is good though, we have an urgency to redeem ourselves. And then a pandemic happens, stifling any legitimate attempt to reboot and regain momentum. 

There's no definitive time when it went wrong. It's just in our DNA.

Good post. 

[Macca 16,969]

2 hours ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

 

Defamation it is then.  Although a person can go to jail for up to 3 years (in this Country)  with regards to extreme cases of defamation.

Calling an umpire a cheat on live TV might not seem to all that harmful to some but Don Blew had other ideas.  And good on him for sticking up for himself.  Again,  Smith settled out of court after Don Blew sued him for defamation.

An extreme case of defamation?  I reckon maybe but such is the disdain for footy umpires in general,  most would disagree with my thoughts

Fact is the board were probably never going to back Smith re his slanderous comments and the rest is history. 

And I stand by my assertion that Smith in some ways brought about his own downfall.  But again,  great coach.

On the surface of it the Board should never have sacked him but they might have wanted to disassociate themselves from him and his actions and comments.  Why else would they sack him? 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Macca