10 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

I could equally argue that the Gold Coast path is the norm - there's a million ways to fail and very few to succeed.  The truth is somewhere in the middle and Gold Coast have done poorly while GWS have excelled.

People bleat about the draft concessions that the start-ups had and how they've disadvantaged other clubs. 

• The bottom 4 teams in 2010 - the year GC had their draft concessions were Brisbane, Essendon, Richmond, West Coast (16th)
• The bottom 5 teams in 2011 - the year GWS had their draft concessions were Melbourne, Adelaide, Brisbane, Port, Gold Coast (17th)

All these teams have subsequently played finals and 2 of them have won flags.

The are great football people at GWS who have given blood for the cause like Alan McConnell the last coach of Fitzroy.  He has been at GWS since day dot, try telling him he doesn't deserve some success.

Well GWS have done a top job at list building but I have already acknowledged that.

I just don't care for them.  They are a broadcast rights team.  They are there for financial reasons

And I'm not a cheerleader for the AFL. 

MFC - different story.

28 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

The are great football people at GWS who have given blood for the cause like Alan McConnell the last coach of Fitzroy.  He has been at GWS since day dot, try telling him he doesn't deserve some success.

Two "likes" for this

 

A good mate is an old Royboy. The way the Roys were treated by the AFL is a stain on them forever more. I was at their last game in Victoria and Richmond gave them a worthy sendoff. Even though they didn't have to. and the next week Freo, in the comp for 5 minutes at that time, gave them their final sendoff in a respectful and very classy manner. Anyone who lived through that deserves something back.

17 minutes ago, Macca said:

Well GWS have done a top job at list building but I have already acknowledged that.

I just don't care for them.  They are a broadcast rights team.  They are there for financial reasons

Paradigm shift!

It's not strictly financial, although I am certain that the expanded comp and especially the expanded TV deal gives Gil something warm to think about at night.

But the TL;DR is that we (the game of Aussie Rules) either expand or shrink. Basketball, soccer -- both participation and watching top level stuff ... gridiron ... non-sports viewing ... it's all chipping away at the AFL. And to expand into rugby territory is a full on assault that the rugby codes haven't quite yet grasped even though it's happening under their noses. It's not a 5 or 10 year project, it's a 50 year project. And the way those two clubs have been established gives many of us pause, but the overall project -- to cement the game of Aussie Rules Football, as opposed to presiding over its gradual demise -- is something we all should get behind. But I understand that there is not much love for those clubs. (I have no love for them, but give a tiny dose of love to GWS for seeing off the mudpies.)

 

In summary: GO DEMONS!!!

4 minutes ago, Mazer Rackham said:

Paradigm shift!

It's not strictly financial, although I am certain that the expanded comp and especially the expanded TV deal gives Gil something warm to think about at night.

But the TL;DR is that we (the game of Aussie Rules) either expand or shrink. Basketball, soccer -- both participation and watching top level stuff ... gridiron ... non-sports viewing ... it's all chipping away at the AFL. And to expand into rugby territory is a full on assault that the rugby codes haven't quite yet grasped even though it's happening under their noses. It's not a 5 or 10 year project, it's a 50 year project. And the way those two clubs have been established gives many of us pause, but the overall project -- to cement the game of Aussie Rules Football, as opposed to presiding over its gradual demise -- is something we all should get behind. But I understand that there is not much love for those clubs. (I have no love for them, but give a tiny dose of love to GWS for seeing off the mudpies.)

 

In summary: GO DEMONS!!!

Congratulations on being a spokesperson for the AFL.  No really,  you're doing a good job.

You won't be convincing me.  Why should I be concerned about the corporate dollar?

Care factor zero Mayz

Yesterday the Storm played the Eels in a knock out second semi.

The Storm have been in Melbourne for 30 years and have won 5 premierships (although two were taken away) and have been runners up on no less than four occasions. They have been wooden spooners once in 2010.

AAMI stadium has a capacity of 30,050.

Why after 30 years of sustained success couldn't the Storm fill AAMI stadium yesterday?

For the same reason the Giants will go nowhere. The AFL interest that there was in Sydney which was never great has been well catered for by the Swans who have been in Sydney for 37 years.

The quaint idea that you need two local teams to provide TV interest has never been a strong argument. In fact one city teams are the norm in most sports.

In short GCS and GWS will never succeed in the way we think of success.

10 minutes ago, Macca said:

Congratulations on being a spokesperson for the AFL.  No really,  you're doing a good job.

You won't be convincing me.  Why should I be concerned about the corporate dollar?

Care factor zero Mayz

You don't have to be concerned nor do I expect to convince you of anything. (Wouldn't mind having a beer or two but don't quote me on that.) But the health of the game of Aussie Rules Football depends on expansion of the code and not an insular protection of what we have. That's what's happening in the NRL and they're shrinking.

23 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Yesterday the Storm played the Eels in a knock out second semi.

The Storm have been in Melbourne for 30 years and have won 5 premierships (although two were taken away) and have been runners up on no less than four occasions. They have been wooden spooners once in 2010.

AAMI stadium has a capacity of 30,050.

Why after 30 years of sustained success couldn't the Storm fill AAMI stadium yesterday?

For the same reason the Giants will go nowhere. The AFL interest that there was in Sydney which was never great has been well catered for by the Swans who have been in Sydney for 37 years.

The quaint idea that you need two local teams to provide TV interest has never been a strong argument. In fact one city teams are the norm in most sports.

In short GCS and GWS will never succeed in the way we think of success.

It's entirely possible those clubs will never succeed. It's out of our hands (the mighty Demons supporting masses) anyway.

The main difference is, the NRL don't really know why they set up the Storm. They had clubs in Adelaide and Perth too, long since dried up and blown away in the wind. Their hearts aren't in it.

The Storm used to go to schools and hold clinics ... never got traction in my area ... they might still do it.

But the full on assault in rugby heartland of Aussie Rules is something that NSW/Qld have not really come to grips with. Auskick. Putting up Aussie Rules goalposts in schools that are considered rugby royalty ... it's war. Whereas the NRL are simply trying to shore up their territory. They hate the Storm, hate the very existence of a non NSW/Qld club, are pathetic in their attempts at expansion and are all out trying to hold to what they have. They don't realise war is being waged against them.

If we want to, in 50 years time, reminisce about the game we used to have in Oz ... "yes, it was a kind of football. It was AUSTRALIAN football. No, the ball was oval shaped. No, it really was. No, I'm not joking. Of course you can kick an oval shaped ball!!! Anyway, it was a great game. Look it up on facetube" ... or, rejoice that we (or our descendants) follow the premier sporting code in Oz ... well, take your choice. GWS/GCS are flawed creations of a flawed commission, but their success, or that of their successors, is going to be virtually guaranteed, because they represent the future of the code.

Edited September 22, 20195 yr by Mazer Rackham

2 hours ago, Mazer Rackham said:

You don't have to be concerned nor do I expect to convince you of anything. (Wouldn't mind having a beer or two but don't quote me on that.) But the health of the game of Aussie Rules Football depends on expansion of the code and not an insular protection of what we have. That's what's happening in the NRL and they're shrinking.

Even though I see GWS as a broadcast rights team I'm not sure they add many eyes to the TV sets or other forms of media

The membership number is total nonsense and I just flat out don't believe it.

As for the crowds they attract,  the numbers are low and that's why we have the fake piped crowd noise.  It's just rubbish

But they've built a very good list and that's why they're in the GF.  I'd say good on them but who are they?  Mercenaries?  Freeloaders?

Sorry mate,  they are not a proper footy side and all they represent is money.  Even Leipzig in the Bundesliga has a core of proper fans.  Look them up for the story.

I'm not even sure you care a lot for them either.  You're probably like me but saying otherwise. 

Edited September 22, 20195 yr by Macca

1 minute ago, Macca said:

Even though I see GWS as a btoadcast rights team I'm not sure they add many eyes to the TV sets or other forms of media

The membership number is total nonsense and I just flat out don't believe it.

As for the crowds they attract,  the numbers are low and that's why we have the fake piped crowd noise.  It's just rubbish

But they've built a very good list and that's why they're in the GF.  I'd say good on them but who is they?  Mercenaries?  Freeloaders?

Sorry mate,  they are not a proper footy side and all they represent is money.  Even Leipzig in the Bundesliga has a core of proper fans.  Look them up for the story.

I'm not going to argue against any of that. Especially the crowds. All I am saying is, their reason for existence is for the future of the code. Which is important.

40 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Yesterday the Storm played the Eels in a knock out second semi.

The Storm have been in Melbourne for 30 years and have won 5 premierships (although two were taken away) and have been runners up on no less than four occasions. They have been wooden spooners once in 2010.

AAMI stadium has a capacity of 30,050.

Why after 30 years of sustained success couldn't the Storm fill AAMI stadium yesterday?

For the same reason the Giants will go nowhere. The AFL interest that there was in Sydney which was never great has been well catered for by the Swans who have been in Sydney for 37 years.

The quaint idea that you need two local teams to provide TV interest has never been a strong argument. In fact one city teams are the norm in most sports.

In short GCS and GWS will never succeed in the way we think of success.

Well said. Even these days visit sydney and still see how miniscule the swans vovetage is. I was there tecently and couted 13 pages of nrl before a seans article in the sunday paper.

 

1 hour ago, Mazer Rackham said:

Paradigm shift!

It's not strictly financial, although I am certain that the expanded comp and especially the expanded TV deal gives Gil something warm to think about at night.

In summary: GO DEMONS!!!

It's totally financial. You are completely wrong there.

When the expansion plan was formed 60% of the advertising dollars in Australia came from NSW and Southern Queensland. AFL was under 'attack' from Rugby League (post the NewsCorp Super League massive spend) and soccer. In 2008 (when the expansion plan was formulated) 20 of the top 25 rated sports programs (ie: most viewers) were Rugby League (barring the Olympics) or thereabouts. Rugby League doesn't draw big crowds but is huge on TV.

The AFL was totally driven by expanding to provide more product so they could sell bigger braodcast deals and generate more ad revenue.

14 minutes ago, Mazer Rackham said:

I'm not going to argue against any of that. Especially the crowds. All I am saying is, their reason for existence is for the future of the code. Which is important.

And the people at the club and who support the club are real Australian Rules people.

11 minutes ago, Mazer Rackham said:

I'm not going to argue against any of that. Especially the crowds. All I am saying is, their reason for existence is for the future of the code. Which is important.

Maybe, but I could mount an argument that 18 teams dilutes the talent base and you end up with unwatchable games (or low interest)

Also,  it remains to be seen whether GWS really do add to the bottom line.  I hear the corporate spin but GWS and the Gold Coast have no real income streams and are burdonsome

The AFL almost certainly plows $30Million per year into each 'franchise' so is it all worth it? Year after year after year

The media won't be talking like I do but they're tied strongly to the AFL aren't they? 

There is what they tell you and then there is the truth. Me - I don't necessarily believe any of it.

 

39 minutes ago, Macca said:

Maybe, but I could mount an argument that 18 teams dilutes the talent base and you end up with unwatchable games (or low interest)

Also,  it remains to be seen whether GWS really do add to the bottom line.  I hear the corporate spin but GWS and the Gold Coast have no real income streams and are burdonsome

The AFL almost certainly plows $30Million per year into each 'franchise' so is it all worth it? Year after year after year

The media won't be talking like I do but they're tied strongly to the AFL aren't they? 

There is what they tell you and then there is the truth. Me - I don't necessarily believe any of it.

 

Again, won't argue any of your points. AFL is playing the long game.

8 hours ago, Macca said:

I've had a good look at our list and we're not good enough Wyl.  We're a benchmark 78 horse trying to win a Group 1 at WFA.

We need to bring in 8 -10 top players over the next 4 -5 years.  And it can be done.  We need to get aggressive with free agency too.  Play the long game. 

My aim would be to have a list capable of contesting for the flag on a regular basis.  Not just a list capable of playing finals.  There's no ambition in that type of thinking

I've come across people in my time who told me that Smith's aim was to have an excess of talent.  Year after year after year.

But it's not living in the past ... Smith thought like a modern day coach.  He just wanted the best list to work with.  And more often than not,  he got what he wanted.  Until the zones came in.  Barassi thought the same way as do a lot of successful coaches.

Coaches can fall into the trap of too much methodology,  systems or game plans.  What they really need is lots of pure talent.

Sheeit 4-5 years??? I'll be dead by then!!!!

45 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

It's totally financial. You are completely wrong there.

When the expansion plan was formed 60% of the advertising dollars in Australia came from NSW and Southern Queensland. AFL was under 'attack' from Rugby League (post the NewsCorp Super League massive spend) and soccer. In 2008 (when the expansion plan was formulated) 20 of the top 25 rated sports programs (ie: most viewers) were Rugby League (barring the Olympics) or thereabouts. Rugby League doesn't draw big crowds but is huge on TV.

The AFL was totally driven by expanding to provide more product so they could sell bigger braodcast deals and generate more ad revenue.

Don't want to get into a yes it is/no it isn't type argument. But I am not "completely" wrong. (1) the dollars are clearly important, (2) the AFL responded to the existential threat. Tables have turned, the NRL aren't countering it very well.

3 minutes ago, Mazer Rackham said:

Again, won't argue any of your points. AFL is playing the long game.

Well they had better hope that the broadcast rights money keeps increasing as they've got a combined $60Million cost each year for the 2 new teams.

TV ratings dropped off alarmingly from 2014 through to the end of 2018 (109 million actual eyes down to 90 milion)

Not sure what has happened this year although Gil came out this year and told us some propaganda about TV numbers.  I'm sceptical though. 

Hey,  footy rules Rack-em but you don't necessarily want large ongoing debts.  The teams in Melbourne might have to watch their pennies if and when they get out of pokies. We might be moving out of the NT eventually but the $800k per game gets replaced with what?

I get the whole long game argument but it has to be cost effective. 

I can't understand why out of the 1,026,000 people watching the PF last night, the only one who thought that goal wasn't clearly touched has been employed by the AFL as a goal reviewer... FMD ?‍♂️

10 minutes ago, picket fence said:

Sheeit 4-5 years??? I'll be dead by then!!!!

My reckoning is that you need an ongoing great list in order to win multiple flags. 

We could pop up and win one (only) if everything goes well but I'd rather see the club build a great list and maintain that great list.

Have multiple chances to win multiple premierships.  Starting off from our Demons in the 50's & 60's we've seen any number of other teams rule the roost

In a bit of a jumbled order from beyond our great era ... Essendon,  Richmond,  Carlton,  Hawthorn,  North,  Carlton,  Hawthorn,  Essendon,  Hawthorn,  West Coast,  North,  Brisbane,  Geelong,  Sydney,  West Coast and then Hawthorn again.  All won multiple flags with great lists.

And in that time frame other top teams with top lists of players couldn't even win 1 flag.  Collingwood twice,  Geelong and St Kilda as well.

In my time,  we have never gone close to having a great list.  Nothing replaces pure talent.  I have actually been saying the same thing since the early 70's.  It's always the other teams with all the best players.  Not us.

The other salient point is there will be a Grand Final next week which apart from Richmond supporters virtually nobody else in Australia will give a stuff about. GWS was/is a concoction and the fact they have about 25 member in Sydney proves it. What a yawn/joke next Saturday promises to be.A sad day for football.

5 minutes ago, dieter said:

The other salient point is there will be a Grand Final next week which apart from Richmond supporters virtually nobody else in Australia will give a stuff about. GWS was/is a concoction and the fact they have about 25 member in Sydney proves it. What a yawn/joke next Saturday promises to be.A sad day for football.

In passing I saw a news story tonight on the excitement in Sydney about the Giants making the Grand Final. They showed a crowd of people chanting "Giants" but the camera was so focused in on them it could have easily have been less than 25 people! Talk about a beat up story. It looked like Rent A Crowd. Heck, pay me some money AFL and I will turn up outside the MCG next week wearing an orange shirt as well. If challenged by Richmond supporters I can say, hey, I only work here.

4 hours ago, Fifty-5 said:

The are great football people at GWS who have given blood for the cause like Alan McConnell the last coach of Fitzroy.  He has been at GWS since day dot, try telling him he doesn't deserve some success.

My thinking also. I like the resilience they’ve shown over a number of years now; Saturday’s performance was a good example - overcoming adversity in an exceedingly hostile environment. They are a real football team despite their small nominal support. I salute them. 

 

Edited September 22, 20195 yr by Tim

4 minutes ago, Tim said:

My thinking also. I like the resilience they’ve shown over a number of years now; Saturday’s performance was a good example - overcoming adversity in an exceedingly hostile environment. They are a real football team despite their small nominal support. I salute them. 

 

They are not a 'team'. They are a concoction bought by the mighty buck. 

 

So 3rd Vs 6th in the GF. 

The advantage of finishing in top 4 and especially top 2 seems to have diminished greatly due to the bye. Amazing impact really. 

Scrap the bye I say. There should be proper reward for finishing top 2. The most important thing at the moment is being form at the right time not being the best team for the year