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Martin Flanagan Talks Dees on SEN (30/7)

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Any father worth his salt would stand down in any discussion regarding his son in things like selection or captaincy.

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5 hours ago, picket fence said:

What have Jones and Viney done?? Good players but thats it.

Where is our Pendlebury? Selwood? 

Won best and fairest's and have been good players for our team. Lever has achieved squat in his AFL career and is close to the most overpaid player in the AFL on output. 

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21 hours ago, Little Goffy said:

Isn't there some kind of secret code about ruckmen? Same as 'never hand-ball to a ruckman running past' - 'never let a ruckman be captain'. I'm just being silly of course, but it doesn't happen often.

It would be interesting to see how Gawn responds, because at the moment he's got all the fun and the candour that you want from a champion, and I wonder if having the role as a formal representative of the club might actually limit that a bit?

What are the key things you'd look for from a captain these days?

- Consistent good form and effort on field, and in training.

- Visible and memorable media presence and positive relationship with fans.

- Makes teammates feel more confident about themselves and their place in the club.

- Helps teammates understand their role and responsibilites as professional footballers.

- Communicates effectively as a representative of the players to coaches and club.

I'd generally say Gawn meets all of these, though some are insider details we can only guess at.

Viney and McDonald might have met all these criteria except they've had such poor individual years, for various reasons.

You could also include:

A player that demonstrates a team first attitude & behaviours.

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Barassi in 1953, his second year...

“At least one Melbourne supporter was not impressed with Ron’s efforts. After struggling on the Hawks’ Len Crane he was shifted to the forward flank for the last quarter. Over there, in quiet moments, a footballer having a bad day learns just how fickle supporters can be. This one in particular told him he was not half the footballer his father was, that he shouldn’t be wearing his Guernsey, and added that old favourite: he was only getting a game because he lived with the coach.”

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5 hours ago, Laughing Goat said:

You could also include:

A player that demonstrates a team first attitude & behaviours.

WINS GAMES OF FOOTY WITH BRILLIANT SOLO EFFORTS!!

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The whole great captain thing is really interesting.  I was thinking about the best of each era going back to the 80's.  I've gone for Terry Daniher from he 80's - versatile, inspirational, courageous and well supported by a couple of other all time greats - Simon Madden and Tim Watson.  Then a whole host of very good players like Neagle, Van Der Haar, Merrett, Foulds, etc.  In the 90's I'd take Carey. And with many of the characteristics of TD, but an even better player.  And a great support cast - Archer, Stevens, Martyn and again a solid next tier - King, Fairley, Bell, Longmire, Laidley etc. Move to the 2000's and there Voss - a superstar in any era, but again has players the calibre of Lappin, Black, Power, Lynch, Brown, Akermanis, and solid citizens like Hart, Ashcroft, Michael, the Scott's etc. In more recent times we have Hodge, again supported by Lewis, Roughhead, Franklin, Gunston, Rioli, McEvoy, Hale etc.  All multiple premiership captains, great leaders of great teams with great supporting casts (and great coaches).  So what makes a great leader - is it a great team or having enough of a critical mass of good to great leaders within the group.  I don't think it matters who our captain is, because we don't have the critical mass of leaders that great sides have. If TD had a rare down day, up pops Watson or Madden to show the way.  This year Gawn has been our only "leader" to deliver and most weeks it hasn't been nearly enough. Whoever is captain won't succeed without great team mates - so Viney, Jones, Gawn - whoever, it won't matter at all until we have enough great leaders in our group.  This is where Grant Thomas was on to something with his leadership rotation.  It did develop a good core of leaders of at the Saints around Riewoldt.  Ultimately unsuccessful but good enough to nearly win 2 flags.

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The writing is on the wall that Jones won't captain next year.

I think you can almost take it to the bank that Viney and Gawn will co-captain next year.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, america de cali said:

These are the kind of apologist compassions I hate and are plain wrong. Viney is now in his 7th season and still hacks the ball by boot. Can’t kick for goal and is a momentum killer at clearances. Barassi already had 4 premierships at the end of his 7th season. Bravery does equate to competence and leadership.

Viney’s performances are a by-product of a flawed game plan. Every midfielder in the team plays the same way and delivers the same outcomes we’ve all grown to loathe this year. 

I agree with Wayne. 

Lay off Viney. 

Edited by McQueen

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Posted (edited)

Guys captaincy or no....hang in there for just a tad longer.

Jack & the Jones boy should bounce back in 2020.  Jones needs to find a role mostly up forward IMO (cant cover a quick player down back).  Started his career there and did ok.  One of his best games for the year (of a handful) in my op was the match against the Swans where he lead from the front kicking 3 very nice goals.

We wont need him down back once May, Lever, Nev and Hibb (hopefully) start hitting some consistently good form.

Next year is all about the forward line as well as finding some speed/class & finish on the outside. 

In the right place / role, with a little less (but focussed) game.time, Jones still has another solid year ahead IMHO.

Viney might be carrying a niggle but if so then im not sure why we would play him from here (or even weeks ago).

Most players have dropped away significantly as we know, with only a few players maintaining last year's form or better in rare cases.

It's a team game, it's a bloody tough game.  With the exceptions we're all aware of, the whole team needs to lift in 2020.  Many hands make light work and if they do Jones & Viney can still play a solid role.  Not necessarily as captains.

It only needs one stellar season plus some fixes to maybe pull off the big one.

One caveat here..  If Goody gets some major help and comes to his senses adding a tempo possession trait plus major list changes (especially forward) we might be in for a reasonable bounce back.  If very little or none of the above occurs and Goody decides to bring more of the same...forget i mentioned any of the above positives and might want to batten down the hatches!

Edited by Rusty Nails

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All u viney Hater's will eat your words, and then eat a hip and shoulder from jack next year, the coming preseason will be jacks first without his foot issues, and then hopefully  his first full preseason in 3 years.

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8 hours ago, don't make me angry said:

All u viney Hater's will eat your words, and then eat a hip and shoulder from jack next year, the coming preseason will be jacks first without his foot issues, and then hopefully  his first full preseason in 3 years.

Seven years high impact footy mate Body is shot. in my opinion but I still hope you are right

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6 minutes ago, Kent said:

AhisSeven years high impact footy mate Body is shot. in my opinion but I still hope you are right

His body is hardly shot, he hardly played in the last 2 seasons before this .year, 

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8 hours ago, don't make me angry said:

All u viney Hater's will eat your words, and then eat a hip and shoulder from jack next year, the coming preseason will be jacks first without his foot issues, and then hopefully  his first full preseason in 3 years.

The way he is playing, it's hard to imagine him having a full pre-season this one, or forever really. I think he'll be a managed player for the rest of his career sadly. He's clearly playing sore atm, I just wish the club would send all these NQRs away now and get their surgeries done, rest and ready for day one of pre-season. Goodwin is absolutely stupid for trying to drive them all into the ground with nothing to gain this year, there are a few who clearly are sore.

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The jumping to conclusions is like watching Wonder Woman leap across the chasm to the tower wall! Yes, I also listened to Viney on SEN following the 8:00am news bulletin. Viney is always going to put the team before his personal ambition... another trait of the desirable leader, I would have thought. As for standing up under pressure, I refer to the 17 contested possessions he had while blanketing Ablett in the first final last year (his first game back) ... followed up with another 17 contested possessions against Hawks... I think tackles were in the double figures as well... Baby with the bathwater folks!

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I would not be against Gawn as Captain and Jetta plus Lever VCs. Just need them injury free. Nev has shown great leadership in recent times and never gives up.

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14 hours ago, McQueen said:

Viney’s performances are a by-product of a flawed game plan. Every midfielder in the team plays the same way and delivers the same outcomes we’ve all grown to loathe this year. 

I agree with Wayne. 

Lay off Viney. 

I'm just comparing JV & Jones with some of the other AFL captains like Selwood, Pendlebury, Heppell, Fyfe, Davis, Kennedy & Hurn.......Not in the same league unfortunately, unless I'm missing something?

Jack is a contested beast but unfortunately, contested footy isn't Melbourne's problem & the sooner we stop being selfish & play a team orientated style of game, the better the the club & the culture will be.

Max for me. (daylight second)

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Our captains between Neitz and Jones were James McDonald, Brad Green, Jack Grimes & Jack Trengove. Jones' longevity (at the end of this year he will be 20 behind games record holder, Neitz), durability and achievement (three B&F's) deserve total respect. Tim Watson names him as one of the blokes you would want beside you in the trenches, calls him a "real warrior". Now, it may be time for him to hand on the captaincy... he may have another good year in him... debate that if you will... but don't make glib comments about not measuring up to other captains in the AFL...

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I wonder if our un expected September success ( not Pf) stuffed  us up this year. As we were not expecting to make finals and then win 2 our plans for player. Surgery went out the door . Teams like hawthorn and geelong plan for such things as they have had experience going deep in September. Players who were scheduled  In the week pre finals were probably done last week Sept. They had 4 weeks less time to recover. All that could have effected training schedules. I think some players were un fit Round1 and didnt get match fit . Compounded by season injuries , we couldnt get the top 22 on field . Our depth is exposed at the moment. some players like ANB are lucky to play. Some drink their own bath water.Losing Hogan was more than getting goals elsewhere. The opposition had to put a good player on him . Some players lost confidence , Our kicking at goal was shocking .

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